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RE: [GTh] Thomas # 3

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  • Jacob Knee
    Is this a question about the historical Jesus or about the intention (so to say) of the final form of the texts? Best wishes, Jacob Knee (Cam, Glos.) ... From:
    Message 1 of 4 , Sep 11, 2003
      Is this a question about the historical Jesus or about the intention (so to
      say) of the final form of the texts?

      Best wishes,
      Jacob Knee
      (Cam, Glos.)

      -----Original Message-----
      From: jmgcormier [mailto:cobby@...]
      Sent: 11 September 2003 22:46
      To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [GTh] Thomas # 3


      Greetings all.

      With the current "lull" on the list, I wonder if I might canvass
      opinions and views (if there are any) on the seeming contradiction
      between Thomas logion #3, (... the Kingdom is not in the sky ... but
      it is ... inside you), and the opening lines of the "Lord's prayer"
      ... (Our father who art "in heaven".)

      Thomas 3 is generally corroborated by Luke 17:21, and John 18:36, but
      then again, how might any of these statements be reconciled with the
      Lord's prayer. Any thoughts ????

      Maurice Cormier

      P.S. Kevin ... many thanks for your thoughts on logion 46


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    • David C. Hindley
      Maurice Cormier asks ... seeming contradiction between Thomas logion #3, (... the Kingdom is not in the sky ... but it is ... inside you), and the opening
      Message 2 of 4 , Sep 11, 2003
        Maurice Cormier asks

        >>I wonder if I might canvass opinions and views (if there are any) on the
        seeming contradiction
        between Thomas logion #3, (... the Kingdom is not in the sky ... but it is
        ... inside you), and the opening lines of the "Lord's prayer" ... (Our
        father who art "in heaven".)

        Thomas 3 is generally corroborated by Luke 17:21, and John 18:36, but then
        again, how might any of these statements be reconciled with the Lord's
        prayer. Any thoughts ????<<

        Luke 17:21 is probably related to the "inside you" of logion #3, as is
        evidenced by the Greek fragment's use of ENTOS just as does Luke 17:21). In
        Luke it seems the author wanted to contrast expectation of a kingdom to
        come, in the future, when it can be comprehended as already present inside
        of an individual or group. In logion #3 the author rather wants to contrast
        outside with inside (although he admits that it is *also* outside the person
        or group at the same time, probably trying to harmonize two interpretations
        or integrate his with the more common one).

        John 18:36 speaks of a kingdom "not of this world" but what exactly does the
        author mean by "world?" The material world (as opposed to the immaterial
        world inhabited by God), or the earth (as opposed to the heavens)? It
        similarly needs to be asked what the authors of various versions of the
        Lord's prayer meant by "heaven?" Does this mean the sky (as opposed to the
        earth) or a supernatural, immaterial place where God dwells (as opposed to
        the material world)? Could we be comparing apples with oranges?

        Respectfully,

        Dave Hindley
        Cleveland, Ohio, USA
      • sarban
        ... From: jmgcormier To: Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 10:46 PM Subject: [GTh] Thomas # 3 ... The original
        Message 3 of 4 , Sep 12, 2003
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "jmgcormier" <cobby@...>
          To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 10:46 PM
          Subject: [GTh] Thomas # 3


          > Greetings all.
          >
          > With the current "lull" on the list, I wonder if I might canvass
          > opinions and views (if there are any) on the seeming contradiction
          > between Thomas logion #3, (... the Kingdom is not in the sky ... but
          > it is ... inside you), and the opening lines of the "Lord's prayer"
          > ... (Our father who art "in heaven".)
          >
          > Thomas 3 is generally corroborated by Luke 17:21, and John 18:36, but
          > then again, how might any of these statements be reconciled with the
          > Lord's prayer. Any thoughts ????
          >
          The original text of the Lord's prayer in Luke reads simply
          "Our Father, Hallowed be thy Name ..." and this is almost
          certainly the reading of Q.
          In any case the "Kingdom of God", presumably means the
          area, (literal or metaphorical), where God rules, where His
          purposes and plans are fulfilled, where He is fully experienced
          by those who love Him. It is not the literal dwelling place of God.

          The real clash with the Lord's prayer, may be the the clause,
          "Thy Kingdom come", this represents the Kingdom as a future
          presumably eschatological reality, whereas Thomas 3 and 51
          and 113, represent the Kingdom as already fully present.
          I think there is a genuine and deliberate conflict here.
          Thomas is explicitly opposing an eschatological understanding
          of the Kingdom.

          Andrew Criddle
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