Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [GTh] Nag Hammadi & Oxyrhynchus

Expand Messages
  • jmgcormier
    ... On the other hand Hippolytus claims that the Naassene Gnostics at the end of the second century used a Gospel of Thomas and quotes from it a distorted
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 1, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "sarban" <sarban@s...> wrote:
      >



      On the other hand Hippolytus claims that the Naassene Gnostics at
      the end of the second century used a Gospel of Thomas and quotes from
      it a distorted version of logion 4 of our Thomas. If, as seems likely,
      the Naassene Thomas is more or less the same as our Thomas, it means
      that Gnostic use of Thomas goes back to very early times, maybe to
      shortly after Thomas was written.

      ============================================

      Hello Andrew ....

      Is there any chance you can provide a reference to Hippolytus' quote,
      or possibly better still, the wording of what you refer to as "a
      distorted version of logion 4 of our Thomas" ....

      Maurice Cormier
    • David C. Hindley
      ... possibly better still, the wording of what you refer to as a distorted version of logion 4 of our Thomas ....
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 1, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Maurice Cormier asks:

        >>Is there any chance you can provide a reference to Hippolytus' quote, or
        possibly better still, the wording of what you refer to as "a distorted
        version of logion 4 of our Thomas" ....<<

        Hippolytus, _Refutation_, Book V, Chapter 2:

        "But they assert that not only is there in favour of their doctrine,
        testimony to be drawn from the mysteries of the Assyrians, but also from
        those of the Phrygians concerning the happy nature--concealed, and yet at
        the same time disclosed--of things that have been, and are coming into
        existence, and moreover will be,-(a happy nature) which, (the Naassene)
        says, is the kingdom of heaven to be sought for within a man. And concerning
        this (nature) they hand down an explicit passage, occurring in the Gospel
        inscribed according to Thomas, expressing themselves thus: "He who seeks me,
        will find, me in children from seven years old; for there concealed, I shall
        in the fourteenth age be made manifest." This, however, is not (the
        teaching) of Christ, but of Hippocrates, who uses these words: "A child of
        seven years is half of a father." And so it is that these (heretics),
        placing the originative nature of the universe in causative seed, (and)
        having ascertained the (aphorism) of Hippocrates, that a child of seven
        years old is half of a father, say that in fourteen years, according to
        Thomas, he is manifested." (Translation is from _Ante-Nicene Fathers_, Vol
        V, page 50, but available online if you look for it)

        Logion #4 is partly preserved in Greek (P. Oxy. IV 654) but it is closer
        (although not identical) to the Coptic version than the form that Hippolytus
        said the Naasenes used.

        Respectfully,

        Dave Hindley
        Cleveland, Ohio, USA

        PS: You might want to invest in the 10 volume Ante-Nicene Fathers series, a
        19th century series of translations of early Christian literature from the
        apostolic fathers to the time just before Eusebius. It has long been in the
        public domain (US at least), and consequently reprinted by at least one
        publisher at any one time, usually for around $100-$120 as a set. You can
        also find electronic versions either on CD or as ZIP files available on the
        Internet, but these scans are universally crappy and full of holes and
        uncorrected errors, leave out the footnotes and the fairly comprehensive
        indices.
      • sarban
        ... From: David C. Hindley To: Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 2:36 AM Subject: RE: [GTh] Nag Hammadi &
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 4, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "David C. Hindley" <dhindley@...>
          To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 2:36 AM
          Subject: RE: [GTh] Nag Hammadi & Oxyrhynchus


          > Maurice Cormier asks:
          >
          > >>Is there any chance you can provide a reference to Hippolytus' quote, or
          > possibly better still, the wording of what you refer to as "a distorted
          > version of logion 4 of our Thomas" ....<<
          >
          > Hippolytus, _Refutation_, Book V, Chapter 2:
          >
          > "But they assert that not only is there in favour of their doctrine,
          > testimony to be drawn from the mysteries of the Assyrians, but also from
          > those of the Phrygians concerning the happy nature--concealed, and yet at
          > the same time disclosed--of things that have been, and are coming into
          > existence, and moreover will be,-(a happy nature) which, (the Naassene)
          > says, is the kingdom of heaven to be sought for within a man. And
          concerning
          > this (nature) they hand down an explicit passage, occurring in the Gospel
          > inscribed according to Thomas, expressing themselves thus: "He who seeks
          me,
          > will find, me in children from seven years old; for there concealed, I
          shall
          > in the fourteenth age be made manifest." This, however, is not (the
          > teaching) of Christ, but of Hippocrates, who uses these words: "A child of
          > seven years is half of a father." And so it is that these (heretics),
          > placing the originative nature of the universe in causative seed, (and)
          > having ascertained the (aphorism) of Hippocrates, that a child of seven
          > years old is half of a father, say that in fourteen years, according to
          > Thomas, he is manifested." (Translation is from _Ante-Nicene Fathers_, Vol
          > V, page 50, but available online if you look for it)
          >
          > Logion #4 is partly preserved in Greek (P. Oxy. IV 654) but it is closer
          > (although not identical) to the Coptic version than the form that
          Hippolytus
          > said the Naasenes used.
          >
          Can I add that there are other sayings attributed to the Naassenes by
          Hippolytus that resemble logia from Thomas.
          e.g. "You devour the dead and make the living; but if you eat the living,
          what will you do ? which vaguely resembles logion 11 in Thomas.
          The Naassenes are a very interesting group, both in their own right and in
          respect of the early use of Thomas.

          Andrew Criddle
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.