Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [GTh] Thomas and John

Expand Messages
  • odell mcguire
    Dear Steve, list: ... Pagels comments on the passage. She interprets it negatively--says it indicates that Thomas does not believe Jesus--and gives a
    Message 1 of 2 , Jun 8, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Steve, list:

      You wrote:
      > But he alsospeaks in ch 11 where he suggests that the disciples trek
      > with Jesus back to Jerusalem in order to die with him. Was this
      > part of the original text or was it inserted in order to ingratiate
      > Thomas-influenced folks?

      Pagels comments on the passage. She interprets it negatively--says it
      indicates that Thomas does not believe Jesus--and gives a refererence in
      support of that reading. I do not have acces to the reference but ISTM the
      Greek is ambiguous as to whether Thomas suggests they go to die with Jesus
      or Lazarus; either way, Thomas is made to doubt Jesus' power over death;
      which, perhapas not incidentally, is in flagrant contradiction to the
      promise of GThom 1.

      I would further point out the Greek 'KAI' of Thomas little speech need not,
      perhaps should not, be translated 'also' but 'indeed.' Then we would have
      the following reduced to dialogue:

      [both speak to disciples rather than to each other]
      JESUS: --but let us go to him. [Lazarus]
      THOMAS: Let us indeed go, that we die with him. [Lazarus? Jesus?]

      Thomas seems to mock Jesus words and has no confidence in what Jesus
      proposes to do.

      I think Pagels is right.

      Odell McGuire
      Lexington, VA

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "swallison" <dermarc@...>
      To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 4:44 PM
      Subject: [GTh] Thomas and John


      >
      >
      > Of the canonical gospels, only in GJohn is Thomas given a talking
      > part. Of course there is the doubting Thomas of ch 21. But he also
      > speaks in ch 11 where he suggests that the disciples trek with Jesus
      > back to Jerusalem in order to die with him. Was this part of the
      > original text or was it inserted in order to ingratiate
      > Thomas-influenced folks? On the other hand perhaps it was originally
      > a part of the text. If so could it be that Jesus' or someone else's
      > response has been excised from the text? It sure seems like something
      > is missing and there could well have originally been more to the
      > narrative. The story just doesn't flow in this section. I guess we
      > will never know for sure. Ch 14 has Thomas asking a question to
      > which Jesus responds. It reveals Thomas as sincere but not truly
      > aware of what's happening. Who is the next apostle to ask a question?
      > Why it is another one subsequently associated with gnosticism,
      > Philip. All summed up, it is too much of a coincidence. If the
      > author or editor was not responding to a form of the Gospel of Thomas
      > then extant, then they were responding and seeking to influence people
      > who shared something in common with whoever it was that eventually
      > produced GThom.
      >
      > A fragment of GJohn found in a backwater part of Egypt dates to about
      > 120 to 130 AD, if memory serves me correctly. Thus it must have been
      > around for several decades at least. The nineties seems realistic as
      > the latest possible date. Therefore a form of GThom or people with
      > views overlapping it must have existed by that date.
      >
      > I've ordered Pagels book and hope to read soon.
      >
      > Steve Allison
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
      > To unsubscribe from this group,
      > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Stephen
      ... [...] ... Here is the story in the King James Version: -Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again. His disciples say unto him,
      Message 2 of 2 , Jun 11, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        >
        > Of the canonical gospels, only in GJohn is Thomas given a talking
        > part. Of course there is the doubting Thomas of ch 21. But he also
        > speaks in ch 11 where he suggests that the disciples trek with Jesus
        > back to Jerusalem in order to die with him. Was this part of the
        > original text or was it inserted in order to ingratiate
        > Thomas-influenced folks? On the other hand perhaps it was originally
        > a part of the text. If so could it be that Jesus' or someone else's
        > response has been excised from the text? It sure seems like something
        > is missing and there could well have originally been more to the
        > narrative. The story just doesn't flow in this section. I guess we
        > will never know for sure.

        [...]
        > Steve Allison
        >

        Here is the story in the King James Version:

        -Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.
        His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee;
        and goest thou thither again?

        Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in
        the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if
        a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.-

        This reply does not make sense in relation to the question. But if we took
        the final element of the reply in isolation:

        "If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light
        [...]. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no
        light in him."

        then we have something which would seem quite at home in the Gospel of
        Thomas. So where has the story about going into Judaea come from? One
        possibility is that it has been put there to explain Thomas saying "Let us
        also go, that we may die with him." So perhaps we have some original saying
        or ritualistic elements which have been turned into a literal story. If we
        take out the story elements we then have:

        [Jesus says] "If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth
        the light [...]. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because
        there is no light in him."

        [Jesus says] "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him
        out of sleep."

        [Thomas says] "Let us also go, that we may die with him."

        Which does sound like a ritual. Perhaps Jesus is dying to redeem Lazarus
        from sleep/death and the disciples are dying symbolically with him. This
        ritualistic formula has then been turned by the writer of John into a
        literal story.

        Stephen Peter
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.