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Re: [GTh] The background to saying 23

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  • BitsyCat1@aol.com
    In a message dated 03/06/2003 10:44:09AM, tom@cherokeetel.com writes:
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 6, 2003
      In a message dated 03/06/2003 10:44:09AM, tom@... writes:

      << John Moon suggests that 114 is a late addition and Pauline. Being that
      114 is the last saying may be in fact the only late part about the addition
      of the saying. What I mean is that the parts of other texts that went into
      composing the GThom came together in an order of availability. It was
      re-ordered and it stopped at 114. >>

      John observes

      Actually my point was that although counted as Gnostic and Late.( Possibly
      considered the latest) by consensus in the past.
      It actually shows up in a more polished form in Paul's Galatian Letter.
      ( Or so it would appear) and perhaps other parallels (better than this)
      could be made to other sayings.

      If we go by the Idea that the more Developed theologically and polished
      presentation is Later. Then Paul's adaptation and presentation is the
      Later Verse.It is Crisp and Comprehensive and connected to Israel's history.
      Whereas the same thought in 114 is a back and forth between individuals?
      More primitive.

      The point might be that there is no Guarantee that Saying 114 is either
      late
      or Gnostic If the same thought occurs in the earliest of Christian Writings?

      Therefore the difficulty in assigning dates and Strata based on Certain
      streams of thought? IS it Late is it Gnostic? IS it an early strata or a Late
      strata?

      I believe we may come back to what is the definition of Gnostic.AND did
      it pre exist the Yeshuan ministry?( Thomas as well as Paul) A common Wisdom
      Literature that may be proto Gnostic?
      If this Wisdom literature was in evidence during the time of Yeshau bar Yosef.
      , then it might change the way we order the strata. And how we classify them.


      Regards,

      John Moon
      Springfield, Tenn37172
    • Tom Saunders
      John Moon states: I believe we may come back to what is the definition of Gnostic.AND did it pre exist the Yeshuan ministry?( Thomas as well as Paul) A common
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 6, 2003
        John Moon states:

        I believe we may come back to what is the definition of Gnostic.AND did
        it pre exist the Yeshuan ministry?( Thomas as well as Paul) A common Wisdom
        Literature that may be proto Gnostic?

        Based on Crossan's idea that Q is apochalyptic and the GThom is ascetic, don't you think this means that Thomas was written as possibly the first sectarian text? I have no problem with Thomas being 'the' proto- Gnostic element that started the various movements.

        I think Marcion, Valentinus, and Tatian all had Thomas and understood the fact that it was the result of heretical acts in the first few years of the Apostle's village. This is where the stakes on salvation became the highest. Consider this from Acts: 5-

        9. But Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to try the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them that have buried thy husband are at the door, and they shall carry thee out.
        10. And she fell down immediately at his feet, and gave up the ghost: and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her by her husband.
        11. And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all that heard these things.

        Between the first heresey with Simon Magus, and the fear caused by 'spirit killings' associated with Peter I see the straw that broke the camel's back on trying to pull the community together. Too many people would have drifted away from Peter, and I think Thomas is likely one of them. This may well stand as the motivation to point out James the Just as the one to follow. Here is another clue.....Acts 5-12.

        12. And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

        They were not in accord on the porch. Then or now. Not Thomas' porch where the "Jew loves the fruit and hates the tree" or visa versa. On Solomon's porch they get circumcised and observe the rules of Solomon. I think this verse in Acts reveals Luke's preference for Jewish practices, and community. It also shows how diverse the GThom is in regard to these issues.

        I think Thomas had every reason to write the GThom at this point, so he could go his own way like Phillip.

        Tom Saunders
        Platter Flats, OK

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