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Re: [GTh] James Brother of Jesus

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  • Jack Kilmon
    ... From: Tom Saunders To: Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 3:57 PM Subject: [GTh] James Brother of Jesus
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 27 4:50 PM
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Tom Saunders" <tom@...>
      To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 3:57 PM
      Subject: [GTh] James Brother of Jesus


      > I am submitting this becuase it may be of interest to the group. See
      below.
      >
      > Tom Saunders
      > Platter Flats, OK
      >
      > >>> JAMES: BROTHER OF JESUS?
      > Wednesday, March 5 at 8pm / 7CT
      > >>>Has historical evidence for the existence of Jesus come to light,
      literally
      > written in stone? An ossuary, a box that holds bones, was uncovered among
      > the relics of a private collector in Jerusalem. It bears an amazing
      Aramaic
      > inscription, "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus." Hosted by Father
      Ken
      > Deasy, we delve into the ossuary's discovery, dated to 63 AD, and
      interview
      > religious scholars, archaeologists, and paleontologists about its
      > authenticity and significance and the controversy it's stirred. Win a trip
      > to sunny San Fransisco from The History Channel!


      I think that should be palaeographers rather than palaeontologists. I
      didn't see any fossils in the ossuary <g>

      Jack
    • goranson@duke.edu
      Right, though, if I recall correctly reports from Toronto, the stone itself includes fossils, and, more recently, a crack showed evidence of plant roots.
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 28 3:25 AM
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        Right, though, if I recall correctly reports from Toronto, the stone
        itself includes fossils, and, more recently, a crack showed evidence of
        plant roots.
        Stephen Goranson

        [....] we delve into the ossuary's discovery, dated to 63 AD, and
        > interview
        > > religious scholars, archaeologists, and paleontologists about its
        > > authenticity and significance and the controversy it's stirred. Win
        > a trip
        > > to sunny San Fransisco from The History Channel!
        >
        >
        > I think that should be palaeographers rather than palaeontologists.
        > I
        > didn't see any fossils in the ossuary <g>
        >
        > Jack
      • Achilles37@aol.com
        An article titled, The Experts and the Ossuary: A Report on the Toronto Sessions about the James Ossuary, on the website
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 2, 2003
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          An article titled, "The Experts and the Ossuary: A Report on the Toronto Sessions about the James Ossuary," on the website http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/The_experts.htm contains the following statement:

          "Oded Golan, the ossuary’s owner, made several comments. First, there are a few small remnants of bone fragments, the largest being about an inch in diameter. There is enough to do DNA analysis, he said, but this will not be done in the near future."

          Regards,

          - Kevin Johnson

          ------------

          In a message dated 2/28/2003 6:25:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, goranson@... writes:

          > Right, though, if I recall correctly reports from Toronto, the stone
          > itself includes fossils, and, more recently, a crack showed evidence of
          > plant roots.
          > Stephen Goranson

          >
          > [....] we delve into the ossuary's discovery, dated to 63 AD, and
          > > interview
          > > > religious scholars, archaeologists, and paleontologists about its
          > > > authenticity and significance and the controversy it's stirred. Win
          > > a trip
          > > > to sunny San Fransisco from The History Channel!
          > >
          > >
          > > I think that should be palaeographers rather than
          > palaeontologists.
          > > I
          > > didn't see any fossils in the ossuary <g>
          > >
          > > Jack
        • Frich107@aol.com
          Back at the end of February it was brought to the list s attention that the ... uncovered among ... For those of you living in the UK, like myself, this
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 21, 2003
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            Back at the end of February it was brought to the list's attention that the
            following program was being shown in the United States:

            >JAMES: BROTHER OF JESUS?
            >
            >Has historical evidence for the existence of Jesus come to light,
            >literally written in stone? An ossuary, a box that holds bones, was
            uncovered among
            >the relics of a private collector in Jerusalem. It bears an amazing
            >Aramaic inscription, "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus."

            For those of you living in the UK, like myself, this program is due for air
            on the Discovery Channel on Easter Sunday (21 April) at 9.00pm.

            Regards,
            Fred Rich.

            Ph.D. Student,
            Department of Biblical Studies,
            University of Sheffield,
            UK.
          • fmmccoy
            ... From: Tom Saunders To: Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 2:42 AM Subject: [GTh] James Brother of Jesus ...
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 11, 2003
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Tom Saunders" <tom@...>
              To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 2:42 AM
              Subject: [GTh] James Brother of Jesus


              > I have finished the second half of the Hershel Shanks and Ben
              Witherington's "The Brother of Jesus." The first half of the book is about
              the James' ossuary. The second half by Witherington is about James.
              >
              > There is mention of the GThom but not any argument that would qualify it
              in terms of being an early work. I don't know if Witherington or Shanks
              considered this possibility as it seems approaching Thomas as a later work
              is the conservative approach to it at this time. Do we as a group subscribe
              to Thomas as an early work and let others supply a burden of proof for a
              later Thomas?

              Dear Tom Saunders:

              I think that the version of Thomas that we possess was written c. 95 CE. I
              do think that it contains some earlier strata--the earliest of which might
              date to 60 CE.

              As far as I know, there is no general agreement about dating Thomas. So,
              ISTM, the burden of proof likes with any claimed date of composition--be it
              early or late.

              (Tom)
              > I have the tendency to read things like this book and Crossan marking
              references that could be important for the study of the GThom. Witherington
              supplies some dandy evidence in regard to showing Jesus may have been
              literate. "Luke 4.16-20 indicates that Jesus could read the scroll in the
              synagogue."
              >
              > "16. And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and he
              entered, as his custom was, into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood
              up to read.
              > 17. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And
              he opened the book, and found the place where it was written,
              > 18. The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach
              good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the
              captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that
              are bruised,
              > 19. To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.
              > 20. And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat
              down: and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him."
              >

              (Frank)
              In excavations of Nazareth, no first century CE synagogue has been found.
              This raises questions about the historical accuracy of Luke 4:16-20.

              Don't get me wrong: I do think that Jesus was literate. I think so, though,
              for reasons other than Luke 4:16-20..

              (Tom)
              > Further Witherington's references to James in concern with the decree to
              Antioch, (Acts 15), and other duties related to being the head of Jerusalem,
              and the letter to the diaspora indicates that he could write. At least it
              provides some strong suggestion. It is not likely that James would be
              literate and Jesus would not.

              (Frank)
              The Greek language decree to Antioch, even if genuine, is not evidence of
              James being literate in Greek because it might have been written by a
              Christian scribe rather than by him. I think that the question of whether
              he was literate in Greek depends upon whether or not the Epistle of James,
              which is written in very good Greek, is genuine. If it is genuine, then he
              had a formal education that included learning how to read and write in
              Greek..

              (Tom)
              > I mention the likelihood of literacy with the core of the Christian
              leadership as support that there is probable cause to think the Apostles
              themselves could have provided the earliest written works for Thomas.
              Shanks puts the population of Jerusalem at the time of 'J' at 40 to 50
              thousand with a literacy rate of 20%. I think this may be high, but at ten
              percent, the likelihood for an early Thomas grows. How does the burden of
              proof shift in this argument?

              (Frank)
              Tom, the apostles were Galileans. They moved to Jerusalem only after the
              crucifixion of Jesus. So, I think, the literacy rate in Galilee is what we
              need to work with rather than the literacy rate in Jerusalem. As far as I
              know, the literacy rate was very low in Galilee, which suggests that the
              disciples were probably illiterate.

              Also, we need to take into consideration the question as to *why* these
              Galileans moved to Jerusalem after the crucifixion of Jesus.

              I suggest that they did so because, they believed, Jesus rose from the dead,
              ascended into heaven, and would soon be descending on the clouds of heaven
              to Jerusalem--there to eternally rule. If so, then they moved to Jerusalem
              in order to be able to greet him when he made his descent from heaven.

              Therefore, that such a belief is absent from Thomas suggests, ISTM, that it
              was
              *not* written, even in part, by the apostles.


              Regards,

              Frank McCoy
              1809 N. English Apt. 17
              Maplewood, MN USA 55109
            • Mike McLafferty
              ... At the web page: http://home1.inet.tele.dk/moebjerg/thomas_en.htm#calls ... Just a chance find, which doesn t imply that Giversen ever worked out this case
              Message 6 of 6 , Apr 12, 2003
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                T. Saunders wrote:

                > I have not heard Pella mentioned as a possible
                > place for the construction of Thomas.

                At the web page:
                http://home1.inet.tele.dk/moebjerg/thomas_en.htm#calls

                ...there is this oral citation:

                > The Danish scholar Søren Giversen may well
                > be right in his theory that very early in the
                > history of Christianity a congregation may be
                > found, which has used the Gospel of Thomas
                > as its special gospel. In a broadcast in the
                > Danish national radio he pointed at the
                > refugees from Jerusalem finding a hiding
                > place at Pella - and to the Jewish/Christian
                > congregation, which must have been set up
                > in the town. ...
                > [...]

                Just a chance find, which doesn't imply that Giversen ever worked out this
                case in his 1959 GTh translation / commentary [Danish] or in any later
                written pieces.

                Michael McLafferty
                Portland, Oregon, USA
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