Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [GTh] Proto-Thomas

Expand Messages
  • Grondin
    ... Sorry, I got this backwards. Basically-narrative material would be Petrine and basically-non-narrative would be Matthean . If I may add two hypotheses:
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 2, 2002
      > ... the mixture of narrative
      > ("Matthean") and non-narrative ("Petrine") material ...

      Sorry, I got this backwards. Basically-narrative material would be "Petrine"
      and basically-non-narrative would be "Matthean". If I may add two
      hypotheses: (1) the "Sayings of the Lord according to Matthew" = Q, and (2)
      the later "Gospel of Matthew" was so-named because it incorporated the
      earlier sayings-source attributed to Matthew - and was presumably the first
      to do so. However, it joined that source (in the same way I'm positing that
      GThomas joined two sources) with the narrative of Mark's gospel. This
      hypothetical textual strategy common to GThom and GMatt, to "marry" two
      sources (left-and-right? male-and-female? gentile-and Jewish?), can be seen,
      I think, as a reflection of GThom 33 - "That which you will hear in BOTH
      ears, shout from your housetops!" In other words, "if two [sources] make
      peace with each other in this [textual] house" (in Jewish terms, if there's
      two witnesses), they can "move mountains". (BTW, the second "ear phrase" in
      GTh 33 is _not_ dittography, as Valantasis and others assert. Compare the
      Greek version to see that this cannot be the case.)

      Mike Grondin
      Mt. Clemens, MI
    • fmmccoy
      ... From: Jim Bauer To: Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 2:16 AM Subject: Re: [GTh] Proto-Thomas ... It ...
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 2, 2002
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Jim Bauer" <jbauer@...>
        To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 2:16 AM
        Subject: Re: [GTh] Proto-Thomas


        > But the most important thing about the man, something that started a whole
        > world religion, was the belief that he rose from the dead. No one would
        > have noticed him were these stories not circulating from an early date.
        It
        > would be sort of like, let's say some movement grew up around Martin
        Luther
        > King & will become in the next few centuries a major world religion &
        nobody
        > noticed he was black. For this reason GTh seems more like somebody's
        > notebooks on J's sermons--which might be what you were trying to say about
        > Proto-Thomas & its community--than something highly structure &, at least
        > for me, makes the entire mathematization you propose mere coincidence.

        Hi Jim!

        There is no question but that the type of Christianity found in the New
        Testament, the type of Christianity that has bcome a world religion, is
        anchored in the belief that Jesus rose from the dead and then ascended into
        heaven, from whence he shall return someday. (Just the resurrection from
        the dead would have been insufficient, e.g., the alleged resurrection of
        Lazarus from the dead, even if real, did not make Lazarus worthy of worship
        because he later died).

        Still, there remains the possibility that, in early Christianity, there was
        another type of Christianity that thought of Jesus as a hierophant and/or
        teacher and/or sage and/or heavenly Revealer and that rejected the whole
        idea of a bodily resurrection. Such early Christians would have rejected
        the truthfulness of the claims that Jesus was bodily resurrected from the
        dead and would have treasured the sayings attributed to Jesus.

        Evidence for just such a variety of early Christianity is found not only in
        GTh but, if it is real, also the postulated Q.

        Certainly, if what Jesus said was highly esteemed even when he was still
        alive, then some notebooks of his sayings might have been made, even before
        his death, by some of his followers and later incorporated into GTh and/or Q
        and/or antecedents of them like the postulated Proto-Thomas.

        (Jim)
        > Also, how often in your scheme do you suggest Thomas was redacted? ISTM
        > that, even if the Proto-Thomas community wasn't interested in anything but
        > his sayings, later writers would have tampered with it & inserted some of
        > the material we encounter in the canonicals, be it fact or fiction.

        (Frank)
        What I envison is that, c. 85-90 CE, someone took two documents, i.e.,
        Proto-Thomas and Pre-Thomas, and some oral traditions and combined them into
        GTh. In this process, I assume, there was some redacting of the earlier
        material, both written and oral, by the author of GTh.

        (Jim)
        > To me it looks like there are clearly Neoplatonic & Gnostic elements,
        which
        > I believe were inserted by a translator. This view springs from the
        > translation of Plato in the NHL, which is so bad it wasn't even recognized
        > as being the Republic until after several years. True, we don't know if
        the
        > same guy translated GTh, but if there's even one terribly bad translation
        in
        > the book it seems plausible there may be others. The NHL community may
        > very well have had a Neoplatonist bias, if they were translating Plato.

        (Frank)
        Oh, I agree that there probably was redacting done to GTh after it was
        completed.

        Certainly, GTh has Neoplatonic and proto-Gnostic characteristics. Also,
        they do seem to become more overt and common in what appear to be later
        strata. However, they do appear to be present even in the earliest strata.

        Could you give one or two examples of sayings, in GTh, where, you suspect,
        a later redactor added Neoplatonic and/or Gnostic characteristics?

        (Jim)
        > Tell me--how do you see Thomas as fitting into the Gnostic movement? For
        > them, the resurrection occurred _before_ death, ie, it was a symbol--but J
        > still gets resurrected. If I remember correctly (correct me if I'm
        wrong),
        > you date the final version of GTh to 90 CE. This was late enough to have
        > been exposed to some of the earliest Gnostics, &/or their precursors. In
        > any case, since Gnosticism evolved out of Jewish apocalypticism (among
        other
        > things), the laws of parallel evolution could have independently created
        > Gnostic-like myths. This is a tentative statement on my part because
        there
        > wouldn't have to be a resurrection myth even if they paralleled other
        > elements of Gnostic myth.

        (Frank)
        I see GThomas as giving us a look into an early phase of a Christian
        movement that evolved into Gnosticism. I don't think that GThomas is
        Gnostic--which is why, earlier in this post, I refer to it as having
        proto-Gnostic elements rather than as having Gnostic elements.

        How do you see Gnosticism as evolving out of Jewish apocalypticism?

        (Jim)
        > It still seems to me that, whether the sources are Gnostic or Christian,
        the
        > resurrection myth was central to the entire J movement. For this reason I
        > still think it unlikely that all narrative would be missing from GTh
        unless
        > it was extremely early, ie, most of the material composed during J's
        > lifetime, or at least an oral tradition begun around HJ, which would
        explain
        > why the narrative is absent. However, this could still point to the
        > narrative as being late-dated, even though this contradicts what I said
        > above, that no one would have noticed him without those stories.

        (Frank)
        I don't see a contradiction in what you say. Stories about Jesus must have
        been present from the begiinning, but this doesn't necessitate that they got
        written down right away. My own investigations into Q lead me to think that
        the latest additions to it regard John the Baptist and related topics and
        are quasi-narrative in format. From this, it is but one step to the
        development of the first narrative gospel, i.e, GMark. So, as I perceive
        it, the earliest Christian documents, such as the postulated Proto-Thomas,
        were basically sayings gospels,. and only later did the narrative gospels
        evolve into being.

        Also, I don't see the resurrection as being central to the thought in
        GThomas . Can you cite any passages, in GThomas, in which, you think, the
        resurrection is alluded to?

        Frank McCoy
        1809 N. English Apt. 17
        Maplewood, MN USA 55109
      • Jim Bauer
        ... recognized ... translation ... strata. ... suspect, ... Neoplatonism: 11) On the day when you were one, you became two. But when you become two, what
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 3, 2002
          > (Jim)
          > > To me it looks like there are clearly Neoplatonic & Gnostic elements,
          > which
          > > I believe were inserted by a translator. This view springs from the
          > > translation of Plato in the NHL, which is so bad it wasn't even
          recognized
          > > as being the Republic until after several years. True, we don't know if
          > the
          > > same guy translated GTh, but if there's even one terribly bad
          translation
          > in
          > > the book it seems plausible there may be others. The NHL community may
          > > very well have had a Neoplatonist bias, if they were translating Plato.
          >
          > (Frank)
          > Oh, I agree that there probably was redacting done to GTh after it was
          > completed.
          >
          > Certainly, GTh has Neoplatonic and proto-Gnostic characteristics. Also,
          > they do seem to become more overt and common in what appear to be later
          > strata. However, they do appear to be present even in the earliest
          strata.
          >
          > Could you give one or two examples of sayings, in GTh, where, you
          suspect,
          > a later redactor added Neoplatonic and/or Gnostic characteristics?

          Neoplatonism:
          11) On the day when you were one, you became two. But when you become two,
          what will you do?
          The Neoplatonists believed that the world was created thru a process of
          emanation from the One, the Beautiful, & the Good (as Plotinus hypostatized
          God) into the Nous, or Mind, followed by the World Soul. This passage seems
          to reflect that view. However, I cannot state this unambiguously as it is
          also part of the Johannine tradition: "the Logos became flesh and dwelt
          among us".

          Gnosticism:
          22) Jesus said to them: When you make the two one, and when you make the
          inside like the outside and the above like the below and the male and female
          one and the same, so that the male not be male and the female not be female;
          and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and hands in place of a
          hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness,
          then you will enter the Kingdom.
          The theme of "making the two one" is more characteristic of Gnostic (and
          Oriental) thought than it is of Christianity, even though this idea was
          central to the alchemical tradition and hence to many Christians up to the
          point where the system was finally disproved. The Gnostic scriptures are
          full of "making the two one" but I don't believe there's a single reference
          to it in the canonicals.
          >
          > (Jim)
          > > Tell me--how do you see Thomas as fitting into the Gnostic movement?
          For
          > > them, the resurrection occurred _before_ death, ie, it was a symbol--but
          J
          > > still gets resurrected. If I remember correctly (correct me if I'm
          > wrong),
          > > you date the final version of GTh to 90 CE. This was late enough to
          have
          > > been exposed to some of the earliest Gnostics, &/or their precursors.
          In
          > > any case, since Gnosticism evolved out of Jewish apocalypticism (among
          > other
          > > things), the laws of parallel evolution could have independently created
          > > Gnostic-like myths. This is a tentative statement on my part because
          > there
          > > wouldn't have to be a resurrection myth even if they paralleled other
          > > elements of Gnostic myth.
          >
          > (Frank)
          > I see GThomas as giving us a look into an early phase of a Christian
          > movement that evolved into Gnosticism. I don't think that GThomas is
          > Gnostic--which is why, earlier in this post, I refer to it as having
          > proto-Gnostic elements rather than as having Gnostic elements.
          >
          > How do you see Gnosticism as evolving out of Jewish apocalypticism?

          This belief is what Kurt Rudolph expressed in _Gnosis_. I personally
          believe that Hans Jonas' assessment is more accurate: he dates the
          beginnings of Gnosticism to "the acute Hellenization of Oriental thought"
          during the time of the Alexandrian Empire.
          >
          Jim Bauer
          Havre, MT
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.