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Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the Thomas Community

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  • fmmccoy
    ... From: Ron McCann To: Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 1:42 AM Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 11, 2002
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Ron McCann" <ronmccann1@...>
      To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 1:42 AM
      Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the Thomas Community


      > Well Frank,
      > Amazing material,
      > Sort of reminds me of films shot-up of Lancaster Bombers trying to land in
      > WWII.
      > Wing and a prayer.
      > Only you are trying to take off in one.
      > Can be done, isn't wise. You can get airbourne but that is it?.
      > Good stuff, but where'd you get it? Seances? Automatic Writing ?
      > This stuff is not bad.
      > Stinks of "channeled material" though.
      > Let's have it. Your own creative through or "others".

      Dear Ron McCann:

      There are some things about the Minnesota environment that foster
      unconventional ways of thinking. I mean, why else would we make the loon
      our state bird, elect Jesse "the Body" Ventuira as our governor, and call
      our hockey team The Wild?

      So, the ideas are my own and they are unconventional not because they were
      produced by channeling but because they were produced while I was under of
      the influence of certain environmental factors limited to Minnesota--e.g.,
      the toxic fumes produced by lutefisk as it being boiled; the swarms of
      mosquitoes from the 10,000 lakes that drive even the the most stoic into
      stark raving lunacy; and the limiting of the seasons to two: winter and road
      construction.

      Ron, as long as I have your ear, let me give you another reason for thinking
      that the Thomas church was located at Tyre.

      At Tyre, the main deity was Melqarth: who was taken to be Hercules
      (Heracles).

      So, in Plato's Gift to Christianity, Jerry Dell Ehrlich (p. 37)
      states, "Also the eastern cults were Hellenized: Melqart of Tyre appeared
      wearing Heracles' lion's skin and holding his club,..".

      Again, in The New Golden Bough (Sir James Frazer author, Theodor H. Gaster
      reviser and editor), it is said (p. 362), "For Meqarth, the great god of
      Tyre, was identified by the Greeks with Hercules, who is said to have burned
      himself to death on a great pyre, asending to heaven in a cloud and a peal
      of thunder. The common Greek legend, immortalized by Sophocles, laid the
      scene of the fiery tragedy on the top of Mount Ocia, but another version
      transferred it significantly to Tyre itself."

      One of the things about Hercules is that he had to perform 10 labors for
      King Eurystheus. This actually became 12 labors, for two of them were not
      accepted by Eurystheus.

      Now, if were divide the each of the two numbers of labors into one or more
      pairs of numbers that are identical, we end up with three sequences:
      1. 10 labors = 5+5 labors pair
      2. 12 labors = 6+6 labors pair
      3. 12 labors = 3+3 labors pair plus another 3+3 labors pair.
      Then, if we change the addition sign to a multiplication sign for each
      identical pair, we have:
      1. 5x5 = 25
      2. 6x6 = 36
      3. 3x3 = 9
      4. 3x3 = 9.
      These are, of course, the three segments for Proto-Thomas (a 3x3 = 9 units
      segment, a 5x5 = 25 units segment, and a 3x3 = 9 units segment) and the one
      segment for Pre-Thomas (a 6x6 = 36 units segment).

      An amazing coincidence?

      I think not.

      What this tells us, I suggest, is that the Thomas church was located in a
      place where Hercules was worshipped by the general populace, with his 10,
      become 12, labors a subject of speculation by some as to their mathematical
      significance.

      Further, since the very first labor of Hercules was the slaying of the
      Nemean lion, this suggests to us that GTh 7 (where the man who eats the lion
      is blessed) was inspired by this first labor of Hercules.

      All this supports the hypothesis that the Thomas church was located at Tyre:
      where, Melqart, the main deity worshipped there, was taken to be Hercules.

      Frank McCoy
      1809 N. English Apt. 17
      Maplewood, MN USA 55109
    • Ron McCann
      Frank, Glad to think this is all coming from your own personal coconut. Those disembodied ascended masters can be so dreary! On a postive note, only a couple
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 13, 2002
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        Frank,
        Glad to think this is all coming from your own personal coconut. Those
        disembodied ascended masters can be so dreary!
        On a postive note, only a couple of years ago Canada adopted a dollar coin,
        getting rid of it's bills which now features, prominently, a burnished
        bronze Loon on one face (our femme fatale-The Queen- being on the other)(
        Hot Chick).
        It is now common parlance in Canada to speak of Loonies in commercial
        transactions. We are full of national pride when we say that Canada has the
        highest percentage of loonies in circulation than any other nation in the
        world. Curiously, no one seems to understand the claim, and everyone seems
        to look at us a bit funny.
        Please be assured, that although you have adopted the loon as your state
        bird, our country has no territorial ambitions or designs on Minnesota, even
        though the population would obviously rise up to join us if we proposed
        union, because of this deep Loonie bond.
        As a country that has adopted as our national animal- the Beaver- in fact, a
        rodent- we certainly hail your compatriots' choice of state birds.
        As for your mosquitoes, we are entrepreneurs and will give you three equine
        encephalitis and 5 mad cow disease for each certified West Nile Virus one
        you find. Some of our minorities need to be put down. Let's talk Trade.
        The lutefisk, of course remains humanly inexplicable, and in an of itself
        would probably bar your state from joining our Confederation. Our whole
        border provinces have never ceased their complaints and I understand the
        Kyoto Accord prohibits the emissions. Your state neibours will have to find
        some other solution.

        More seriously Frank, this Tyre thing, interesting literary detective work,
        is just not convincing. Sorry but it seems Velikovskian if not Von
        Danikenian to me. You are spotting significance patterns of apparent
        connectedness but these patterns regularly show up in entirely disconnected
        random events we call syncronicity and co-incidence and co-evolution. It is
        WE who supply the connection and contribute to the connecting pattern, and
        it is a trap to researchers. It is WE who insist the coincidence is beyond
        the bound of probability and MUST of necessity be significant. No it is not.
        Even the one in a billion shot occurs regularly, all the time. We still have
        a lot to learn about the Woof and Warp of Space-Time, about Probability and
        about the Mind. You can't just stack up similar patterns and posit a
        necessary connection, especially sequential in time, between them all. That
        is a trap. Science did this in it's infancy. It just doesn't do it any more.

        Your ability to find "the pattern" is staggering, and I much admire it, but
        just because A looks one hell of a lot like A, literarily, doesn't establish
        any sort of causal or sequential connection in time. For Tyre, what have you
        got? That kind of pattern- and in literature- not any sort of hard evidence.

        By all means, throw out the patterns you see for us to look at. Sometimes it
        is going to hit. I thought your material on Philonic influence on Thomas was
        pretty convincing. I don't want to discourage you. But to use my earlier
        metaphor, this particular bird just won't fly. That Tyre dog just won't
        hunt.

        Well, that's just another loonie's opinion.

        Ron McCann
        Saskatoon, Canada

        [Copy of Frank's original note has been deleted by editor, to conform to list protocols for quoting previously-disseminated messages. -MWG]
      • Grondin
        ... mathematical ... You ve got the cart pulling the horse, I m afraid. The mystical speculation about numbers preceded the stories of Hercules, and were
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 13, 2002
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          [Frank McCoy]:
          > An amazing coincidence? I think not.
          >
          > What this tells us, I suggest, is that the Thomas church was located in a
          > place where Hercules was worshipped by the general populace, with his 10,
          > become 12, labors a subject of speculation by some as to their
          mathematical
          > significance.

          You've got the cart pulling the horse, I'm afraid. The mystical speculation
          about numbers preceded the stories of Hercules, and were probably the reason
          for his having been given that number of labors in the first place, not the
          other way round. Putting it another way, numbers (including 10 and 12) had
          mystical significance for a good many folks who never heard of Hercules. To
          say nothing of the extreme unlikelihood of _Christians_ contemplating the
          deep meaning of an already-ancient Greek children's story! To coin a phrase,
          this view strikes me as Thieringesque. (Way too many hypotheses, way too
          little factual evidence.)

          Mike Grondin
          Mt. Clemens, MI
        • fmmccoy
          ... From: Grondin To: Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 14, 2002
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Grondin" <mwgrondin@...>
            To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 3:31 PM
            Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the Thomas Community

            .

            (Mike Grondin)
            > You've got the cart pulling the horse, I'm afraid. The mystical
            speculation
            > about numbers preceded the stories of Hercules, and were probably the
            reason
            > for his having been given that number of labors in the first place, not
            the
            > other way round. Putting it another way, numbers (including 10 and 12) had
            > mystical significance for a good many folks who never heard of Hercules.
            To
            > say nothing of the extreme unlikelihood of _Christians_ contemplating the
            > deep meaning of an already-ancient Greek children's story! To coin a
            phrase,
            > this view strikes me as Thieringesque. (Way too many hypotheses, way too
            > little factual evidence.)

            (Frank McCoy)
            This line of reasoning is, admittedly, highly speculative, but that doesn't
            necessarily make it wrong.

            Also, Tyrians who had been speculating on the numbers 10 and 12 because they
            had been worshippers of Hercules wouldn't necessarily have stopped
            speculating on these two numbers once they became Christians. People
            adopting a new religion frequently have a transitional period in which the
            manner that they way they act and think is kind of in-between the two
            religions. Many of them stay in such a transitional state the rest of their
            lives.

            Finally, there is some evidence which supports the hypothesis that many of
            the people in the Thomas church had been Tyrians worshipping Hercules,
            Jupiter/Zeus, and Astarte before their conversion to Christianity.

            To begin with, it appears that the members of the GTh community worshipped
            three deities: a Father (God), a Mother (Holy Spirit), and Son (Jesus).

            For example, let us look at GTh 30a, "Where there are three gods, they are
            gods." This suggests that three deities were worshipped by the GTh
            community.

            Again. let us look at GTh 44, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be
            forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the Son will be forgiven, but
            whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either on
            earth or in heaven."

            Here, I suggest, we have a triad of Father (God), Son (Jesus), and Mother
            (Holy Spirit).

            Finally, let us look at GTh 105, "Jesus said, 'He who knows the father and
            the mother will be called the son of a harlot."

            Here, I suggest, Jesus speaks as the Son of the Father (i.e., God) and the
            Mother (i.e., the Holy Spirit).

            While a Father (God) and Son (Jesus) pairing is found in the canonical
            gospels and in Paul's epistles, this triplet of Father (God), Son (Jesus),
            and Mother (Holy Spirit) is unique to GTh.

            How did it arise?

            What I suggest is that, in the GTh community, the bulk of the populace had a
            primary focus of worship on a trio of Father, Son, and Mother. Those
            becoming Christians continued to think in the old way of a Father-Son-Mother
            trio and, so, as Christians, worshipped a trio of Father (God), Son (Jesus),
            and Mother (Holy Spirit).

            In this regard, there is evidence that the primary focus of worship at Tyre
            had been on a trio of Father (Jupiter), Son (Hercules), and Mother
            (Astarte).

            So, in Antiquities of the Jews (Book VIII, Chapt. V, Sect. 3), Josephus
            quotes Menander: who, he said, translated the Tyrian historical archives
            from Phoenician into Greek. In the quote from Menander, the subject of
            discussion is Hiram: who was the King of Tyre at the time of Solomon.

            The relevant part of the quote from Menander reads, "He raised a bank
            in the large place, and dedicated the golden pillar which is in Jupiter's
            temple. He also went and cut down materials of timber out of the mountain
            called Libanus, for the roof of temples; and when he had pulled down the
            ancient temples, he built the temple of Hercules and that of Astarte; and he
            first set up the temple of Hercules in the month Peritius; he also made an
            expedition against the Euchii who did not pay their tribute".

            From this, it appears that there were three main deities worshipped at Tyre:
            Jupiter, Hercules, and Astarte.

            As for Jupiter, he is the Roman version of Zeus: who was the father of
            Hercules. So, it would appear, two of the three main deities worshipped at
            Tyre (i.e., Jupiter and Hercules) were father and son.

            This being so, the natural expectation is that the third main deity,
            Astarte, is the mother of the son, i.e., is the mother of Hercules.

            Indeed, this likely is the case.

            See The New Golden Bough (Sir James Frazer, with revision and editing by
            Theodor H. Gaster), where (p. 443) it is said, "The Tyrian Hercules was said
            to be a son of Zeus and Asteria (Eudoxus, as quoted in note 4); Cicero, De
            Natura Decorum, iii. 16. 42. Asteria may be a Greek approximation to
            Astarte: W. W. Baudissin, Adonis und Esmun (Leipzig 1911), 307."

            What this means is that, quite likely, the Tyrians' primary worship focused
            on a trio of a Father (Jupiter/Zeus), a Mother (Astarte), and a Son
            (Hercules).

            What I suggest is that the Thomas church was located at Tyre. Further, most
            of those who became its members had, before their conversion, been
            worshipping a triad of Father (Jupiter), Son (Hercules), and Mother
            (Astarte). Finally, used to thinking of a triad of Father, Mother, and Son,
            they continued thinking this way even after becoming Christians: so that, as
            Christians, they worshipped three deities: Father, Mother, and Son--these
            three deities being, respectively, God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus. This is
            why, in GTh alone, we find not just a Father-Son pair but a fuller
            Father-Son-Mother trio.

            Perhaps, then, the ultimate roots for the Christian doctrine of the Trinity
            are to be found in the worship, at Tyre, of the trio of a Father
            (Jupiter/Zeus), a Son (Hercules), and a Mother (Astarte)!

            Frank McCoy
            1809 N. English Apt. 17
            Maplewood, MN USA 55109
          • Jim Bauer
            ... From: fmmccoy To: Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 14, 2002
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "fmmccoy" <FMMCCOY@...>
              To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 2:23 PM
              Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the Thomas Community


              > (Frank McCoy)
              > > To begin with, it appears that the members of the GTh community
              worshipped
              > three deities: a Father (God), a Mother (Holy Spirit), and Son (Jesus).
              > While a Father (God) and Son (Jesus) pairing is found in the canonical
              > gospels and in Paul's epistles, this triplet of Father (God), Son (Jesus),
              > and Mother (Holy Spirit) is unique to GTh.

              This is untrue. The Trimorphic Protennoia, which is in the NHL also speaks
              of Father, Mother & Son. I quote: "Now the Voice which originated from my
              Thought exists as three permanences: Father, Mother & Son." (NHLe, 3rd
              Edition, page 514). This is, of course, only the tip of the iceberg as the
              entire treatise consists of material of this nature; I simply cited the
              first incidence I found of it. I do not know Coptic, but I believe an
              earlier translation rendered "Son" as "Mother-Father" so I'd have to ask
              those on this list who do know Coptic to comment here. There is also a
              tradition in Eastern Orthodoxy that Jesus was androgynous, which was also
              present in alchemy until its final demise. Since many religious leaders
              like several Popes & Martin Luther. among others, were alchemists it follows
              that this tradition was still well known in Christianity until at least the
              time of the so-called "Scientific Revolution". (Although there is no hard
              evidence Luther ever worked with alchemical equipment he praises it in his
              correspondence for its "fine symbolism".)

              Jim Bauer
              Havre, Montana
            • Grondin
              Frank- I must say that your latest post lends some credibility to the Tyre hypothesis - though I would still maintain that there s no connection between
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 14, 2002
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                Frank-

                I must say that your latest post lends some credibility to the Tyre
                hypothesis - though I would still maintain that there's no connection
                between number-mysticism and reflection on the story of Herakles/Hercules.
                Be that as it may, however, perhaps you can answer a question that arises
                from Josephus' quotation from Menander:

                > So, in Antiquities of the Jews (Book VIII, Chapt. V, Sect. 3), Josephus
                > quotes Menander: who, he said, translated the Tyrian historical archives
                > from Phoenician into Greek. In the quote from Menander, the subject of
                > discussion is Hiram: who was the King of Tyre at the time of Solomon.
                >
                > The relevant part of the quote from Menander reads, "He raised a bank
                > in the large place, and dedicated the golden pillar which is in Jupiter's
                > temple. He also went and cut down materials of timber out of the mountain
                > called Libanus, for the roof of temples; and when he had pulled down the
                > ancient temples, he built the temple of Hercules and that of Astarte ...

                Now then, Hiram flourished in the time of David and Solomon (mid-9th century
                BCE), whereas Rome didn't begin it's outward expansion until some 600 years
                later - mid-3rd century BCE, according to Harper's Bible Dictionary. So I
                wonder why there would be a temple to Jupiter/Jove in Tyre in Hiram's time?
                Or should we understand Menander's statement as meaning that Hiram dedicated
                a golden pillar in what was _then_ (at the time of Menander) Jupiter's
                temple? That is, could the temple have been that of the Greek god Zeus at
                the time of Hiram, and later converted to that of Jupiter/Jove when Roman
                influence began to be felt centuries later? This question doesn't seem to
                have a lot of impact on your view, but perhaps you could comment?

                Aside from the Zeus/Jupiter question, I guess one of the larger questions is
                what conclusions we should draw from the fact that Tyre was the home of
                temples to both the Phoenician goddess Astarte and the Greek demigod
                Herakles/Hercules (illegitimate son of Zeus). You seem to be assuming that
                the same folks held both dieties in high esteem, but that conclusion doesn't
                necessarily follow, as I'm sure you know. After all, modern Jerusalem has
                synagogues, mosques, and Christian churches, but nobody (that I know of)
                goes to all three - or venerates a pantheon composed of Moses, Jesus, and
                Muhammad. I realize the situation is somewhat different, but what evidence
                do we have that there was a group of folks who venerated _all_ these gods in
                combination with each other as you suggest? To put the question a different
                way: why should we think of what Hiram was doing as anything other than the
                even-handed attempts of a monarch to please various separate
                religious/ethnic groups?

                Mike Grondin
                Mt. Clemens, MI
              • fmmccoy
                ... From: Jim Bauer To: Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 4:54 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 15, 2002
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Jim Bauer" <jbauer@...>
                  To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 4:54 PM
                  Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the Thomas Community


                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "fmmccoy" <FMMCCOY@...>
                  > To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 2:23 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the Thomas Community
                  >
                  >
                  > > (Frank McCoy)
                  > > > To begin with, it appears that the members of the GTh community
                  > worshipped
                  > > three deities: a Father (God), a Mother (Holy Spirit), and Son (Jesus).
                  > > While a Father (God) and Son (Jesus) pairing is found in the canonical
                  > > gospels and in Paul's epistles, this triplet of Father (God), Son
                  (Jesus),
                  > > and Mother (Holy Spirit) is unique to GTh.
                  >

                  (Jim Bauer)>
                  This is untrue. The Trimorphic Protennoia, which is in the NHL also speaks
                  > of Father, Mother & Son
                  :
                  (Frank McCoy)

                  Good point.

                  However, in making my statement, I was thinking in terms of the time period
                  of roughly 50 CE to roughly 125 CE.

                  In the Nag Hammadi Library, John D. Turner (p. 461) dates the Trimorphic
                  Protennoia to c. 200 CE.

                  So, it would appear to be too late to have a bearing on how the GThomas
                  community came up with the idea of a Father-Mother-Son triad.
                  .
                  Frank McCoy
                  1809 N. English Apt. 17
                  Maplewood, MN USA 55109
                • fmmccoy
                  ... From: Grondin To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:57 AM Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 15, 2002
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Grondin" <mwgrondin@...>
                    To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:57 AM
                    Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the Thomas Community


                    (Frank McCoy)
                    > > The relevant part of the quote from Menander reads, "He raised a bank
                    > > in the large place, and dedicated the golden pillar which is in
                    Jupiter's
                    > > temple. He also went and cut down materials of timber out of the
                    mountain
                    > > called Libanus, for the roof of temples; and when he had pulled down the
                    > > ancient temples, he built the temple of Hercules and that of Astarte ...

                    (Mike Grondin)
                    > Now then, Hiram flourished in the time of David and Solomon (mid-9th
                    century
                    > BCE), whereas Rome didn't begin it's outward expansion until some 600
                    years
                    > later - mid-3rd century BCE, according to Harper's Bible Dictionary. So I
                    > wonder why there would be a temple to Jupiter/Jove in Tyre in Hiram's
                    time?
                    > Or should we understand Menander's statement as meaning that Hiram
                    dedicated
                    > a golden pillar in what was _then_ (at the time of Menander) Jupiter's
                    > temple? That is, could the temple have been that of the Greek god Zeus at
                    > the time of Hiram, and later converted to that of Jupiter/Jove when Roman
                    > influence began to be felt centuries later? This question doesn't seem to
                    > have a lot of impact on your view, but perhaps you could comment?

                    (Frank)
                    In The Interpreter's Bible (Vol. 3, p. 804), A.S. Kapelrud states, "Most
                    famous (of the Baals) was the Baal of Tyre, Melquart, for whom King Hiram
                    built a temple in the tenth century."

                    Obviously, then, when doing his translations, Menander translated the
                    Phoenician name of Melqart into Greek as Hercules: presumably because of his
                    knowledge of the later identification, by the Tyrians, of Melqart with
                    Hercules. So, he wrote anachronistically of Hiram building a temple for
                    Hercules when, actually, Hiram built a temple for Melqart.

                    This raises suspicions about his depiction of a temple to Jupiter at Tyre
                    during the time of Hiram.

                    I suspect that it was, at the time of Hiram, a temple to El. I further
                    suspect that, later, the Tyrians identified El as being both Zeus and
                    Jupiter--for El had a position comparable in the Phoenician pantheon to Zeus
                    in the Greek pantheon and to Jupiter in the Roman pantheon. Finally,
                    Menander, knowing that the Tyrians identified El with Zeus and Jupiter,
                    translated the Phoenician word El into Greek as Jupiter. As a result, he
                    anachronistically wrote of Hiram erecting the golden pillar in a temple
                    dedicated to Jupiter when, actually, Hiram erected it in
                    a temple dedicated to El.

                    (Mike)
                    > Aside from the Zeus/Jupiter question, I guess one of the larger questions
                    is
                    > what conclusions we should draw from the fact that Tyre was the home of
                    > temples to both the Phoenician goddess Astarte and the Greek demigod
                    > Herakles/Hercules (illegitimate son of Zeus). You seem to be assuming that
                    > the same folks held both dieties in high esteem, but that conclusion
                    doesn't
                    > necessarily follow, as I'm sure you know. After all, modern Jerusalem has
                    > synagogues, mosques, and Christian churches, but nobody (that I know of)
                    > goes to all three - or venerates a pantheon composed of Moses, Jesus, and
                    > Muhammad. I realize the situation is somewhat different, but what evidence
                    > do we have that there was a group of folks who venerated _all_ these gods
                    in
                    > combination with each other as you suggest? To put the question a
                    different
                    > way: why should we think of what Hiram was doing as anything other than
                    the
                    > even-handed attempts of a monarch to please various separate
                    > religious/ethnic groups?

                    (Frank)
                    At the time of Hiram, what you envison could very well be correct, with one
                    group of people worshipping at the temple to Melqart, a second group at the
                    temple to El (?), and a third group at the temple to Astarte.

                    Once the identifications of: (1) El with Zeus and Jupiter and (2) Melqart
                    with Hercules were made at Tyre, then the situation necessarily became
                    different. In particular, since Hercules was a son of Zeus, this means that
                    those who worshipped Zeus/Jupiter also would have worshipped Hercules and
                    vice versa.

                    One other factor needs to be taken into account.

                    That is, in Greek mythology concerning Hercules, his mother was a mortal,
                    Alcmene, the wife of Amphitryon.

                    However, in the Tyrian version, the mother of Hercules is rendered in Greek
                    as Asteria. This tells us that, in the Tyrian version of the Hercules myth,
                    his mother was not Alcmene.

                    Further, as is pointed out in the previous post, it is suggested, in the
                    New Golden Bough, that Asteria should be understood to be an attempt at
                    rendering, in Greek, the Phoenician name of Astarte.

                    The key point is that Astarte was a goddess. So, if, as the New Golden
                    Bough suggests, Asteria is a Greek version of the Phoenician name of
                    Astarte, then, in the Tyrian version of the Hercules myth, Hercules was
                    deemed to have had both a divine father and a divine mother, making him
                    fully divine.

                    In this case, with Zeus/Jupiter being the father of Hercules and Astarte
                    being his mother, then a Tyrian worshipper of one of them would have been a
                    worshipper of all three of them.

                    Of course, if Asteria is not Astarte, then this was not the case.

                    I have no knowledge of Semetic languages. Perhaps someone on this list who
                    does can comment on the likelihood of Asteria being an attempt to render, in
                    Greek, the Phoenician name of Astarte. For example, do the similarity in
                    consonants (str vs. strt) make this idea likely to be true? Again, might
                    there have been regional variations in how Astarte was pronounced in
                    Phoenician? Are Aramaic and Phoenician one and the same language? If not,
                    might Asteria be the rendering, in Greek, of the Aramaic version of the
                    Phoenician name of Astarte?

                    Mike, you raise good questions and I'm sorry but this inadequate answer is
                    the best I can do.

                    Frank McCoy
                    1809 N. English Apt. 17
                    Maplewood, MN USA 55109
                  • fmmccoy
                    ... From: Ron McCann To: Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 2:08 AM Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 15, 2002
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Ron McCann" <ronmccann1@...>
                      To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 2:08 AM
                      Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the Thomas Community


                      > Frank,

                      > Please be assured, that although you have adopted the loon as your state
                      > bird, our country has no territorial ambitions or designs on Minnesota,
                      even
                      > though the population would obviously rise up to join us if we proposed
                      > union, because of this deep Loonie bond.
                      > As a country that has adopted as our national animal- the Beaver- in fact,
                      a
                      > rodent- we certainly hail your compatriots' choice of state birds.

                      Ron:

                      Ohmigosh! Our state animal also is a rodent: the "golden" gopher. So, a
                      love of rodents is another thing shared by Canadians and Minnesotans Could
                      a love of loons and rodents be a side-effect from having to endure too many
                      long cold winters?.

                      We Minnesotans are unique, though, in that, while beavers are industrius,
                      gophers are purely obnoxious critters with no socially redeeming traits.
                      What this says about Minnesotans is a subject best left untouched!

                      (Ron)
                      > More seriously Frank, this Tyre thing, interesting literary detective
                      work,
                      > is just not convincing. Sorry but it seems Velikovskian if not Von
                      > Danikenian to me.

                      (Frank)
                      I haven't heard of Von Dankenian. I read Velikovky eons ago. Creativity
                      run amok will little sober scholarship. His theories regarding near
                      collisions between Terra, Venus, and Mars have been disproven with the
                      evidence gathered by satellite probes to Venus and Mars.. His theory that
                      petroleum isn't organically based, though, has recently come into a new
                      lease on life with the demonstration, by a team of scientists from Gas
                      Resources Co. in Houston, TX, that marble, iron oxide, and water, when
                      placed under the conditions found 100 km deep in the mantle (temp = 1,500 C,
                      pressure = 50,000 atmospheres), can generate methane and octane.

                      (Ron)
                      You are spotting significance patterns of apparent
                      > connectedness but these patterns regularly show up in entirely
                      disconnected
                      > random events we call syncronicity and co-incidence and co-evolution. It
                      is
                      > WE who supply the connection and contribute to the connecting pattern, and
                      > it is a trap to researchers. It is WE who insist the coincidence is beyond
                      > the bound of probability and MUST of necessity be significant. No it is
                      not.
                      > Even the one in a billion shot occurs regularly, all the time. We still
                      have
                      > a lot to learn about the Woof and Warp of Space-Time, about Probability
                      and
                      > about the Mind. You can't just stack up similar patterns and posit a
                      > necessary connection, especially sequential in time, between them all.
                      That
                      > is a trap. Science did this in it's infancy. It just doesn't do it any
                      more.
                      > Your ability to find "the pattern" is staggering, and I much admire it,
                      but
                      > just because A looks one hell of a lot like A, literarily, doesn't
                      establish
                      > any sort of causal or sequential connection in time. For Tyre, what have
                      you
                      > got? That kind of pattern- and in literature- not any sort of hard
                      evidenence.

                      (Frank).
                      Granted, it's frequently impossible for us to tell whether an apparent
                      conncectivity is a real connectivity or something else, such as coincidence.

                      How, though, can you say science is out of its infancy when we still don't
                      have a cure for the common cold?

                      What is your definition of *hard* evidence?

                      (Ron)
                      > By all means, throw out the patterns you see for us to look at. Sometimes
                      it/
                      > is going to hit. I thought your material on Philonic influence on Thomas
                      was
                      > pretty convincing.

                      (Frank)
                      Thank you.

                      (Ron)
                      I don't want to discourage you. But to use my earlier
                      > metaphor, this particular bird just won't fly. That Tyre dog just won't
                      > hunt.
                      >
                      > Well, that's just another loonie's opinion.
                      >
                      (Frank)
                      If the dog won't hunt for the bird, and if the bird won't fly but, rather,
                      lies low under heavy cover, then, for sure, there is going to be one very
                      frustrated pheasant hunter!.

                      Ron, what you're telling me, and I appreciate your advice, is that the
                      evidence I have presented for the hypothesis that the Thomas community was
                      located at Tyre isn't credible in your eyes. Could you give your definition
                      of *hard* evidence, so I have some idea as to what kind(s) of evidence you
                      would find credible?

                      Frank McCoy
                      1809 N, English Apt. 17
                      Maplewood, MN USA 55109
                    • RSBrenchley@aol.com
                      In a message dated 15/08/02 11:02:33 GMT Daylight Time, ... follows ... GPhilip has Some said that Mary conceived by the holy spirit: they are mistaken, they
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 17, 2002
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                        In a message dated 15/08/02 11:02:33 GMT Daylight Time,
                        gthomas@yahoogroups.com writes:

                        > The Trimorphic Protennoia, which is in the NHL also speaks
                        > of Father, Mother & Son. I quote: "Now the Voice which originated from my
                        > Thought exists as three permanences: Father, Mother & Son." (NHLe, 3rd
                        > Edition, page 514). This is, of course, only the tip of the iceberg as the
                        > entire treatise consists of material of this nature; I simply cited the
                        > first incidence I found of it. I do not know Coptic, but I believe an
                        > earlier translation rendered "Son" as "Mother-Father" so I'd have to ask
                        > those on this list who do know Coptic to comment here. There is also a
                        > tradition in Eastern Orthodoxy that Jesus was androgynous, which was also
                        > present in alchemy until its final demise. Since many religious leaders
                        > like several Popes & Martin Luther. among others, were alchemists it
                        follows
                        > that this tradition was still well known in Christianity until at least the
                        > time of the so-called "Scientific Revolution". (Although there is no hard
                        > evidence Luther ever worked with alchemical equipment he praises it in his
                        > correspondence for its "fine symbolism".)
                        >
                        > Jim Bauer
                        > Havre, Montana

                        GPhilip has 'Some said that Mary conceived by the holy spirit: they are
                        mistaken, they do not realise what they say. When did a female ever conceive
                        by a female' (14, Bentley's translation). Most obviously, it's found in
                        GHebrews: 'When Christ wished to come upon the earth to men, the good Father
                        summoned up a mighty power in heaven, which was called Micheal, and entrusted
                        Christ to the care thereof. And the power came into the world and was called
                        Mary, and Christ was in her womb seven months. another faragment has: Here
                        the Saviour says: Even so did my mother, the Holy Spirit, take me by one of
                        my hairs and carry me away onto the great mountain Tabor. (Hennecke's
                        translation).

                        I think the same idea is in the Qur'an but I can't find it. That would
                        indicate that it survived in 7th Century Arabia.

                        Regards,

                        Robert Brenchley
                        RSBrenchley@...
                        Birmingham UK
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