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Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the Thomas Community

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  • ErotkPoetLaureat@aol.com
    In a message dated 05-Aug-02 6:38:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, FMMCCOY@email.msn.com writes: Being new to the group, I
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 5, 2002
      In a message dated 05-Aug-02 6:38:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
      FMMCCOY@... writes:

      << Does this sound reasonable to you? >>

      Being new to the group, I have not seen the earlier arguments. I will examine
      this one in more detail later. If you have the previous email, please
      forward. Thanks.
      Michael
      --------------------------------------
      Ed note: New members wishing to catch up on this or other threads can view
      all previous messages at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gthomas/messages (you may have to establish a yahoogroups id before viewing, however). Also, signatures on messages should include the writer's surname. (M.Grondin)
    • Ron McCann
      Well Frank, Amazing material, Sort of reminds me of films shot-up of Lancaster Bombers trying to land in WWII. Wing and a prayer. Only you are trying to take
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 6, 2002
        Well Frank,
        Amazing material,
        Sort of reminds me of films shot-up of Lancaster Bombers trying to land in
        WWII.
        Wing and a prayer.
        Only you are trying to take off in one.
        Can be done, isn't wise. You can get airbourne but that is it?.
        Good stuff, but where'd you get it? Seances? Automatic Writing ?
        This stuff is not bad.
        Stinks of "channeled material" though.
        Let's have it. Your own creative through or "others".

        Ron McCann
      • fmmccoy
        ... From: Ron McCann To: Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 1:42 AM Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 11, 2002
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Ron McCann" <ronmccann1@...>
          To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 1:42 AM
          Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the Thomas Community


          > Well Frank,
          > Amazing material,
          > Sort of reminds me of films shot-up of Lancaster Bombers trying to land in
          > WWII.
          > Wing and a prayer.
          > Only you are trying to take off in one.
          > Can be done, isn't wise. You can get airbourne but that is it?.
          > Good stuff, but where'd you get it? Seances? Automatic Writing ?
          > This stuff is not bad.
          > Stinks of "channeled material" though.
          > Let's have it. Your own creative through or "others".

          Dear Ron McCann:

          There are some things about the Minnesota environment that foster
          unconventional ways of thinking. I mean, why else would we make the loon
          our state bird, elect Jesse "the Body" Ventuira as our governor, and call
          our hockey team The Wild?

          So, the ideas are my own and they are unconventional not because they were
          produced by channeling but because they were produced while I was under of
          the influence of certain environmental factors limited to Minnesota--e.g.,
          the toxic fumes produced by lutefisk as it being boiled; the swarms of
          mosquitoes from the 10,000 lakes that drive even the the most stoic into
          stark raving lunacy; and the limiting of the seasons to two: winter and road
          construction.

          Ron, as long as I have your ear, let me give you another reason for thinking
          that the Thomas church was located at Tyre.

          At Tyre, the main deity was Melqarth: who was taken to be Hercules
          (Heracles).

          So, in Plato's Gift to Christianity, Jerry Dell Ehrlich (p. 37)
          states, "Also the eastern cults were Hellenized: Melqart of Tyre appeared
          wearing Heracles' lion's skin and holding his club,..".

          Again, in The New Golden Bough (Sir James Frazer author, Theodor H. Gaster
          reviser and editor), it is said (p. 362), "For Meqarth, the great god of
          Tyre, was identified by the Greeks with Hercules, who is said to have burned
          himself to death on a great pyre, asending to heaven in a cloud and a peal
          of thunder. The common Greek legend, immortalized by Sophocles, laid the
          scene of the fiery tragedy on the top of Mount Ocia, but another version
          transferred it significantly to Tyre itself."

          One of the things about Hercules is that he had to perform 10 labors for
          King Eurystheus. This actually became 12 labors, for two of them were not
          accepted by Eurystheus.

          Now, if were divide the each of the two numbers of labors into one or more
          pairs of numbers that are identical, we end up with three sequences:
          1. 10 labors = 5+5 labors pair
          2. 12 labors = 6+6 labors pair
          3. 12 labors = 3+3 labors pair plus another 3+3 labors pair.
          Then, if we change the addition sign to a multiplication sign for each
          identical pair, we have:
          1. 5x5 = 25
          2. 6x6 = 36
          3. 3x3 = 9
          4. 3x3 = 9.
          These are, of course, the three segments for Proto-Thomas (a 3x3 = 9 units
          segment, a 5x5 = 25 units segment, and a 3x3 = 9 units segment) and the one
          segment for Pre-Thomas (a 6x6 = 36 units segment).

          An amazing coincidence?

          I think not.

          What this tells us, I suggest, is that the Thomas church was located in a
          place where Hercules was worshipped by the general populace, with his 10,
          become 12, labors a subject of speculation by some as to their mathematical
          significance.

          Further, since the very first labor of Hercules was the slaying of the
          Nemean lion, this suggests to us that GTh 7 (where the man who eats the lion
          is blessed) was inspired by this first labor of Hercules.

          All this supports the hypothesis that the Thomas church was located at Tyre:
          where, Melqart, the main deity worshipped there, was taken to be Hercules.

          Frank McCoy
          1809 N. English Apt. 17
          Maplewood, MN USA 55109
        • Ron McCann
          Frank, Glad to think this is all coming from your own personal coconut. Those disembodied ascended masters can be so dreary! On a postive note, only a couple
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 13, 2002
            Frank,
            Glad to think this is all coming from your own personal coconut. Those
            disembodied ascended masters can be so dreary!
            On a postive note, only a couple of years ago Canada adopted a dollar coin,
            getting rid of it's bills which now features, prominently, a burnished
            bronze Loon on one face (our femme fatale-The Queen- being on the other)(
            Hot Chick).
            It is now common parlance in Canada to speak of Loonies in commercial
            transactions. We are full of national pride when we say that Canada has the
            highest percentage of loonies in circulation than any other nation in the
            world. Curiously, no one seems to understand the claim, and everyone seems
            to look at us a bit funny.
            Please be assured, that although you have adopted the loon as your state
            bird, our country has no territorial ambitions or designs on Minnesota, even
            though the population would obviously rise up to join us if we proposed
            union, because of this deep Loonie bond.
            As a country that has adopted as our national animal- the Beaver- in fact, a
            rodent- we certainly hail your compatriots' choice of state birds.
            As for your mosquitoes, we are entrepreneurs and will give you three equine
            encephalitis and 5 mad cow disease for each certified West Nile Virus one
            you find. Some of our minorities need to be put down. Let's talk Trade.
            The lutefisk, of course remains humanly inexplicable, and in an of itself
            would probably bar your state from joining our Confederation. Our whole
            border provinces have never ceased their complaints and I understand the
            Kyoto Accord prohibits the emissions. Your state neibours will have to find
            some other solution.

            More seriously Frank, this Tyre thing, interesting literary detective work,
            is just not convincing. Sorry but it seems Velikovskian if not Von
            Danikenian to me. You are spotting significance patterns of apparent
            connectedness but these patterns regularly show up in entirely disconnected
            random events we call syncronicity and co-incidence and co-evolution. It is
            WE who supply the connection and contribute to the connecting pattern, and
            it is a trap to researchers. It is WE who insist the coincidence is beyond
            the bound of probability and MUST of necessity be significant. No it is not.
            Even the one in a billion shot occurs regularly, all the time. We still have
            a lot to learn about the Woof and Warp of Space-Time, about Probability and
            about the Mind. You can't just stack up similar patterns and posit a
            necessary connection, especially sequential in time, between them all. That
            is a trap. Science did this in it's infancy. It just doesn't do it any more.

            Your ability to find "the pattern" is staggering, and I much admire it, but
            just because A looks one hell of a lot like A, literarily, doesn't establish
            any sort of causal or sequential connection in time. For Tyre, what have you
            got? That kind of pattern- and in literature- not any sort of hard evidence.

            By all means, throw out the patterns you see for us to look at. Sometimes it
            is going to hit. I thought your material on Philonic influence on Thomas was
            pretty convincing. I don't want to discourage you. But to use my earlier
            metaphor, this particular bird just won't fly. That Tyre dog just won't
            hunt.

            Well, that's just another loonie's opinion.

            Ron McCann
            Saskatoon, Canada

            [Copy of Frank's original note has been deleted by editor, to conform to list protocols for quoting previously-disseminated messages. -MWG]
          • Grondin
            ... mathematical ... You ve got the cart pulling the horse, I m afraid. The mystical speculation about numbers preceded the stories of Hercules, and were
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 13, 2002
              [Frank McCoy]:
              > An amazing coincidence? I think not.
              >
              > What this tells us, I suggest, is that the Thomas church was located in a
              > place where Hercules was worshipped by the general populace, with his 10,
              > become 12, labors a subject of speculation by some as to their
              mathematical
              > significance.

              You've got the cart pulling the horse, I'm afraid. The mystical speculation
              about numbers preceded the stories of Hercules, and were probably the reason
              for his having been given that number of labors in the first place, not the
              other way round. Putting it another way, numbers (including 10 and 12) had
              mystical significance for a good many folks who never heard of Hercules. To
              say nothing of the extreme unlikelihood of _Christians_ contemplating the
              deep meaning of an already-ancient Greek children's story! To coin a phrase,
              this view strikes me as Thieringesque. (Way too many hypotheses, way too
              little factual evidence.)

              Mike Grondin
              Mt. Clemens, MI
            • fmmccoy
              ... From: Grondin To: Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 14, 2002
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Grondin" <mwgrondin@...>
                To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 3:31 PM
                Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the Thomas Community

                .

                (Mike Grondin)
                > You've got the cart pulling the horse, I'm afraid. The mystical
                speculation
                > about numbers preceded the stories of Hercules, and were probably the
                reason
                > for his having been given that number of labors in the first place, not
                the
                > other way round. Putting it another way, numbers (including 10 and 12) had
                > mystical significance for a good many folks who never heard of Hercules.
                To
                > say nothing of the extreme unlikelihood of _Christians_ contemplating the
                > deep meaning of an already-ancient Greek children's story! To coin a
                phrase,
                > this view strikes me as Thieringesque. (Way too many hypotheses, way too
                > little factual evidence.)

                (Frank McCoy)
                This line of reasoning is, admittedly, highly speculative, but that doesn't
                necessarily make it wrong.

                Also, Tyrians who had been speculating on the numbers 10 and 12 because they
                had been worshippers of Hercules wouldn't necessarily have stopped
                speculating on these two numbers once they became Christians. People
                adopting a new religion frequently have a transitional period in which the
                manner that they way they act and think is kind of in-between the two
                religions. Many of them stay in such a transitional state the rest of their
                lives.

                Finally, there is some evidence which supports the hypothesis that many of
                the people in the Thomas church had been Tyrians worshipping Hercules,
                Jupiter/Zeus, and Astarte before their conversion to Christianity.

                To begin with, it appears that the members of the GTh community worshipped
                three deities: a Father (God), a Mother (Holy Spirit), and Son (Jesus).

                For example, let us look at GTh 30a, "Where there are three gods, they are
                gods." This suggests that three deities were worshipped by the GTh
                community.

                Again. let us look at GTh 44, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be
                forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the Son will be forgiven, but
                whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either on
                earth or in heaven."

                Here, I suggest, we have a triad of Father (God), Son (Jesus), and Mother
                (Holy Spirit).

                Finally, let us look at GTh 105, "Jesus said, 'He who knows the father and
                the mother will be called the son of a harlot."

                Here, I suggest, Jesus speaks as the Son of the Father (i.e., God) and the
                Mother (i.e., the Holy Spirit).

                While a Father (God) and Son (Jesus) pairing is found in the canonical
                gospels and in Paul's epistles, this triplet of Father (God), Son (Jesus),
                and Mother (Holy Spirit) is unique to GTh.

                How did it arise?

                What I suggest is that, in the GTh community, the bulk of the populace had a
                primary focus of worship on a trio of Father, Son, and Mother. Those
                becoming Christians continued to think in the old way of a Father-Son-Mother
                trio and, so, as Christians, worshipped a trio of Father (God), Son (Jesus),
                and Mother (Holy Spirit).

                In this regard, there is evidence that the primary focus of worship at Tyre
                had been on a trio of Father (Jupiter), Son (Hercules), and Mother
                (Astarte).

                So, in Antiquities of the Jews (Book VIII, Chapt. V, Sect. 3), Josephus
                quotes Menander: who, he said, translated the Tyrian historical archives
                from Phoenician into Greek. In the quote from Menander, the subject of
                discussion is Hiram: who was the King of Tyre at the time of Solomon.

                The relevant part of the quote from Menander reads, "He raised a bank
                in the large place, and dedicated the golden pillar which is in Jupiter's
                temple. He also went and cut down materials of timber out of the mountain
                called Libanus, for the roof of temples; and when he had pulled down the
                ancient temples, he built the temple of Hercules and that of Astarte; and he
                first set up the temple of Hercules in the month Peritius; he also made an
                expedition against the Euchii who did not pay their tribute".

                From this, it appears that there were three main deities worshipped at Tyre:
                Jupiter, Hercules, and Astarte.

                As for Jupiter, he is the Roman version of Zeus: who was the father of
                Hercules. So, it would appear, two of the three main deities worshipped at
                Tyre (i.e., Jupiter and Hercules) were father and son.

                This being so, the natural expectation is that the third main deity,
                Astarte, is the mother of the son, i.e., is the mother of Hercules.

                Indeed, this likely is the case.

                See The New Golden Bough (Sir James Frazer, with revision and editing by
                Theodor H. Gaster), where (p. 443) it is said, "The Tyrian Hercules was said
                to be a son of Zeus and Asteria (Eudoxus, as quoted in note 4); Cicero, De
                Natura Decorum, iii. 16. 42. Asteria may be a Greek approximation to
                Astarte: W. W. Baudissin, Adonis und Esmun (Leipzig 1911), 307."

                What this means is that, quite likely, the Tyrians' primary worship focused
                on a trio of a Father (Jupiter/Zeus), a Mother (Astarte), and a Son
                (Hercules).

                What I suggest is that the Thomas church was located at Tyre. Further, most
                of those who became its members had, before their conversion, been
                worshipping a triad of Father (Jupiter), Son (Hercules), and Mother
                (Astarte). Finally, used to thinking of a triad of Father, Mother, and Son,
                they continued thinking this way even after becoming Christians: so that, as
                Christians, they worshipped three deities: Father, Mother, and Son--these
                three deities being, respectively, God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus. This is
                why, in GTh alone, we find not just a Father-Son pair but a fuller
                Father-Son-Mother trio.

                Perhaps, then, the ultimate roots for the Christian doctrine of the Trinity
                are to be found in the worship, at Tyre, of the trio of a Father
                (Jupiter/Zeus), a Son (Hercules), and a Mother (Astarte)!

                Frank McCoy
                1809 N. English Apt. 17
                Maplewood, MN USA 55109
              • Jim Bauer
                ... From: fmmccoy To: Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 14, 2002
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "fmmccoy" <FMMCCOY@...>
                  To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 2:23 PM
                  Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the Thomas Community


                  > (Frank McCoy)
                  > > To begin with, it appears that the members of the GTh community
                  worshipped
                  > three deities: a Father (God), a Mother (Holy Spirit), and Son (Jesus).
                  > While a Father (God) and Son (Jesus) pairing is found in the canonical
                  > gospels and in Paul's epistles, this triplet of Father (God), Son (Jesus),
                  > and Mother (Holy Spirit) is unique to GTh.

                  This is untrue. The Trimorphic Protennoia, which is in the NHL also speaks
                  of Father, Mother & Son. I quote: "Now the Voice which originated from my
                  Thought exists as three permanences: Father, Mother & Son." (NHLe, 3rd
                  Edition, page 514). This is, of course, only the tip of the iceberg as the
                  entire treatise consists of material of this nature; I simply cited the
                  first incidence I found of it. I do not know Coptic, but I believe an
                  earlier translation rendered "Son" as "Mother-Father" so I'd have to ask
                  those on this list who do know Coptic to comment here. There is also a
                  tradition in Eastern Orthodoxy that Jesus was androgynous, which was also
                  present in alchemy until its final demise. Since many religious leaders
                  like several Popes & Martin Luther. among others, were alchemists it follows
                  that this tradition was still well known in Christianity until at least the
                  time of the so-called "Scientific Revolution". (Although there is no hard
                  evidence Luther ever worked with alchemical equipment he praises it in his
                  correspondence for its "fine symbolism".)

                  Jim Bauer
                  Havre, Montana
                • Grondin
                  Frank- I must say that your latest post lends some credibility to the Tyre hypothesis - though I would still maintain that there s no connection between
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 14, 2002
                    Frank-

                    I must say that your latest post lends some credibility to the Tyre
                    hypothesis - though I would still maintain that there's no connection
                    between number-mysticism and reflection on the story of Herakles/Hercules.
                    Be that as it may, however, perhaps you can answer a question that arises
                    from Josephus' quotation from Menander:

                    > So, in Antiquities of the Jews (Book VIII, Chapt. V, Sect. 3), Josephus
                    > quotes Menander: who, he said, translated the Tyrian historical archives
                    > from Phoenician into Greek. In the quote from Menander, the subject of
                    > discussion is Hiram: who was the King of Tyre at the time of Solomon.
                    >
                    > The relevant part of the quote from Menander reads, "He raised a bank
                    > in the large place, and dedicated the golden pillar which is in Jupiter's
                    > temple. He also went and cut down materials of timber out of the mountain
                    > called Libanus, for the roof of temples; and when he had pulled down the
                    > ancient temples, he built the temple of Hercules and that of Astarte ...

                    Now then, Hiram flourished in the time of David and Solomon (mid-9th century
                    BCE), whereas Rome didn't begin it's outward expansion until some 600 years
                    later - mid-3rd century BCE, according to Harper's Bible Dictionary. So I
                    wonder why there would be a temple to Jupiter/Jove in Tyre in Hiram's time?
                    Or should we understand Menander's statement as meaning that Hiram dedicated
                    a golden pillar in what was _then_ (at the time of Menander) Jupiter's
                    temple? That is, could the temple have been that of the Greek god Zeus at
                    the time of Hiram, and later converted to that of Jupiter/Jove when Roman
                    influence began to be felt centuries later? This question doesn't seem to
                    have a lot of impact on your view, but perhaps you could comment?

                    Aside from the Zeus/Jupiter question, I guess one of the larger questions is
                    what conclusions we should draw from the fact that Tyre was the home of
                    temples to both the Phoenician goddess Astarte and the Greek demigod
                    Herakles/Hercules (illegitimate son of Zeus). You seem to be assuming that
                    the same folks held both dieties in high esteem, but that conclusion doesn't
                    necessarily follow, as I'm sure you know. After all, modern Jerusalem has
                    synagogues, mosques, and Christian churches, but nobody (that I know of)
                    goes to all three - or venerates a pantheon composed of Moses, Jesus, and
                    Muhammad. I realize the situation is somewhat different, but what evidence
                    do we have that there was a group of folks who venerated _all_ these gods in
                    combination with each other as you suggest? To put the question a different
                    way: why should we think of what Hiram was doing as anything other than the
                    even-handed attempts of a monarch to please various separate
                    religious/ethnic groups?

                    Mike Grondin
                    Mt. Clemens, MI
                  • fmmccoy
                    ... From: Jim Bauer To: Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 4:54 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 15, 2002
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Jim Bauer" <jbauer@...>
                      To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 4:54 PM
                      Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the Thomas Community


                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "fmmccoy" <FMMCCOY@...>
                      > To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 2:23 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the Thomas Community
                      >
                      >
                      > > (Frank McCoy)
                      > > > To begin with, it appears that the members of the GTh community
                      > worshipped
                      > > three deities: a Father (God), a Mother (Holy Spirit), and Son (Jesus).
                      > > While a Father (God) and Son (Jesus) pairing is found in the canonical
                      > > gospels and in Paul's epistles, this triplet of Father (God), Son
                      (Jesus),
                      > > and Mother (Holy Spirit) is unique to GTh.
                      >

                      (Jim Bauer)>
                      This is untrue. The Trimorphic Protennoia, which is in the NHL also speaks
                      > of Father, Mother & Son
                      :
                      (Frank McCoy)

                      Good point.

                      However, in making my statement, I was thinking in terms of the time period
                      of roughly 50 CE to roughly 125 CE.

                      In the Nag Hammadi Library, John D. Turner (p. 461) dates the Trimorphic
                      Protennoia to c. 200 CE.

                      So, it would appear to be too late to have a bearing on how the GThomas
                      community came up with the idea of a Father-Mother-Son triad.
                      .
                      Frank McCoy
                      1809 N. English Apt. 17
                      Maplewood, MN USA 55109
                    • fmmccoy
                      ... From: Grondin To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:57 AM Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 15, 2002
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Grondin" <mwgrondin@...>
                        To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:57 AM
                        Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the Thomas Community


                        (Frank McCoy)
                        > > The relevant part of the quote from Menander reads, "He raised a bank
                        > > in the large place, and dedicated the golden pillar which is in
                        Jupiter's
                        > > temple. He also went and cut down materials of timber out of the
                        mountain
                        > > called Libanus, for the roof of temples; and when he had pulled down the
                        > > ancient temples, he built the temple of Hercules and that of Astarte ...

                        (Mike Grondin)
                        > Now then, Hiram flourished in the time of David and Solomon (mid-9th
                        century
                        > BCE), whereas Rome didn't begin it's outward expansion until some 600
                        years
                        > later - mid-3rd century BCE, according to Harper's Bible Dictionary. So I
                        > wonder why there would be a temple to Jupiter/Jove in Tyre in Hiram's
                        time?
                        > Or should we understand Menander's statement as meaning that Hiram
                        dedicated
                        > a golden pillar in what was _then_ (at the time of Menander) Jupiter's
                        > temple? That is, could the temple have been that of the Greek god Zeus at
                        > the time of Hiram, and later converted to that of Jupiter/Jove when Roman
                        > influence began to be felt centuries later? This question doesn't seem to
                        > have a lot of impact on your view, but perhaps you could comment?

                        (Frank)
                        In The Interpreter's Bible (Vol. 3, p. 804), A.S. Kapelrud states, "Most
                        famous (of the Baals) was the Baal of Tyre, Melquart, for whom King Hiram
                        built a temple in the tenth century."

                        Obviously, then, when doing his translations, Menander translated the
                        Phoenician name of Melqart into Greek as Hercules: presumably because of his
                        knowledge of the later identification, by the Tyrians, of Melqart with
                        Hercules. So, he wrote anachronistically of Hiram building a temple for
                        Hercules when, actually, Hiram built a temple for Melqart.

                        This raises suspicions about his depiction of a temple to Jupiter at Tyre
                        during the time of Hiram.

                        I suspect that it was, at the time of Hiram, a temple to El. I further
                        suspect that, later, the Tyrians identified El as being both Zeus and
                        Jupiter--for El had a position comparable in the Phoenician pantheon to Zeus
                        in the Greek pantheon and to Jupiter in the Roman pantheon. Finally,
                        Menander, knowing that the Tyrians identified El with Zeus and Jupiter,
                        translated the Phoenician word El into Greek as Jupiter. As a result, he
                        anachronistically wrote of Hiram erecting the golden pillar in a temple
                        dedicated to Jupiter when, actually, Hiram erected it in
                        a temple dedicated to El.

                        (Mike)
                        > Aside from the Zeus/Jupiter question, I guess one of the larger questions
                        is
                        > what conclusions we should draw from the fact that Tyre was the home of
                        > temples to both the Phoenician goddess Astarte and the Greek demigod
                        > Herakles/Hercules (illegitimate son of Zeus). You seem to be assuming that
                        > the same folks held both dieties in high esteem, but that conclusion
                        doesn't
                        > necessarily follow, as I'm sure you know. After all, modern Jerusalem has
                        > synagogues, mosques, and Christian churches, but nobody (that I know of)
                        > goes to all three - or venerates a pantheon composed of Moses, Jesus, and
                        > Muhammad. I realize the situation is somewhat different, but what evidence
                        > do we have that there was a group of folks who venerated _all_ these gods
                        in
                        > combination with each other as you suggest? To put the question a
                        different
                        > way: why should we think of what Hiram was doing as anything other than
                        the
                        > even-handed attempts of a monarch to please various separate
                        > religious/ethnic groups?

                        (Frank)
                        At the time of Hiram, what you envison could very well be correct, with one
                        group of people worshipping at the temple to Melqart, a second group at the
                        temple to El (?), and a third group at the temple to Astarte.

                        Once the identifications of: (1) El with Zeus and Jupiter and (2) Melqart
                        with Hercules were made at Tyre, then the situation necessarily became
                        different. In particular, since Hercules was a son of Zeus, this means that
                        those who worshipped Zeus/Jupiter also would have worshipped Hercules and
                        vice versa.

                        One other factor needs to be taken into account.

                        That is, in Greek mythology concerning Hercules, his mother was a mortal,
                        Alcmene, the wife of Amphitryon.

                        However, in the Tyrian version, the mother of Hercules is rendered in Greek
                        as Asteria. This tells us that, in the Tyrian version of the Hercules myth,
                        his mother was not Alcmene.

                        Further, as is pointed out in the previous post, it is suggested, in the
                        New Golden Bough, that Asteria should be understood to be an attempt at
                        rendering, in Greek, the Phoenician name of Astarte.

                        The key point is that Astarte was a goddess. So, if, as the New Golden
                        Bough suggests, Asteria is a Greek version of the Phoenician name of
                        Astarte, then, in the Tyrian version of the Hercules myth, Hercules was
                        deemed to have had both a divine father and a divine mother, making him
                        fully divine.

                        In this case, with Zeus/Jupiter being the father of Hercules and Astarte
                        being his mother, then a Tyrian worshipper of one of them would have been a
                        worshipper of all three of them.

                        Of course, if Asteria is not Astarte, then this was not the case.

                        I have no knowledge of Semetic languages. Perhaps someone on this list who
                        does can comment on the likelihood of Asteria being an attempt to render, in
                        Greek, the Phoenician name of Astarte. For example, do the similarity in
                        consonants (str vs. strt) make this idea likely to be true? Again, might
                        there have been regional variations in how Astarte was pronounced in
                        Phoenician? Are Aramaic and Phoenician one and the same language? If not,
                        might Asteria be the rendering, in Greek, of the Aramaic version of the
                        Phoenician name of Astarte?

                        Mike, you raise good questions and I'm sorry but this inadequate answer is
                        the best I can do.

                        Frank McCoy
                        1809 N. English Apt. 17
                        Maplewood, MN USA 55109
                      • fmmccoy
                        ... From: Ron McCann To: Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 2:08 AM Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 15, 2002
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Ron McCann" <ronmccann1@...>
                          To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 2:08 AM
                          Subject: Re: [GTh] Mark 3-4 and Tyre as the Thomas Community


                          > Frank,

                          > Please be assured, that although you have adopted the loon as your state
                          > bird, our country has no territorial ambitions or designs on Minnesota,
                          even
                          > though the population would obviously rise up to join us if we proposed
                          > union, because of this deep Loonie bond.
                          > As a country that has adopted as our national animal- the Beaver- in fact,
                          a
                          > rodent- we certainly hail your compatriots' choice of state birds.

                          Ron:

                          Ohmigosh! Our state animal also is a rodent: the "golden" gopher. So, a
                          love of rodents is another thing shared by Canadians and Minnesotans Could
                          a love of loons and rodents be a side-effect from having to endure too many
                          long cold winters?.

                          We Minnesotans are unique, though, in that, while beavers are industrius,
                          gophers are purely obnoxious critters with no socially redeeming traits.
                          What this says about Minnesotans is a subject best left untouched!

                          (Ron)
                          > More seriously Frank, this Tyre thing, interesting literary detective
                          work,
                          > is just not convincing. Sorry but it seems Velikovskian if not Von
                          > Danikenian to me.

                          (Frank)
                          I haven't heard of Von Dankenian. I read Velikovky eons ago. Creativity
                          run amok will little sober scholarship. His theories regarding near
                          collisions between Terra, Venus, and Mars have been disproven with the
                          evidence gathered by satellite probes to Venus and Mars.. His theory that
                          petroleum isn't organically based, though, has recently come into a new
                          lease on life with the demonstration, by a team of scientists from Gas
                          Resources Co. in Houston, TX, that marble, iron oxide, and water, when
                          placed under the conditions found 100 km deep in the mantle (temp = 1,500 C,
                          pressure = 50,000 atmospheres), can generate methane and octane.

                          (Ron)
                          You are spotting significance patterns of apparent
                          > connectedness but these patterns regularly show up in entirely
                          disconnected
                          > random events we call syncronicity and co-incidence and co-evolution. It
                          is
                          > WE who supply the connection and contribute to the connecting pattern, and
                          > it is a trap to researchers. It is WE who insist the coincidence is beyond
                          > the bound of probability and MUST of necessity be significant. No it is
                          not.
                          > Even the one in a billion shot occurs regularly, all the time. We still
                          have
                          > a lot to learn about the Woof and Warp of Space-Time, about Probability
                          and
                          > about the Mind. You can't just stack up similar patterns and posit a
                          > necessary connection, especially sequential in time, between them all.
                          That
                          > is a trap. Science did this in it's infancy. It just doesn't do it any
                          more.
                          > Your ability to find "the pattern" is staggering, and I much admire it,
                          but
                          > just because A looks one hell of a lot like A, literarily, doesn't
                          establish
                          > any sort of causal or sequential connection in time. For Tyre, what have
                          you
                          > got? That kind of pattern- and in literature- not any sort of hard
                          evidenence.

                          (Frank).
                          Granted, it's frequently impossible for us to tell whether an apparent
                          conncectivity is a real connectivity or something else, such as coincidence.

                          How, though, can you say science is out of its infancy when we still don't
                          have a cure for the common cold?

                          What is your definition of *hard* evidence?

                          (Ron)
                          > By all means, throw out the patterns you see for us to look at. Sometimes
                          it/
                          > is going to hit. I thought your material on Philonic influence on Thomas
                          was
                          > pretty convincing.

                          (Frank)
                          Thank you.

                          (Ron)
                          I don't want to discourage you. But to use my earlier
                          > metaphor, this particular bird just won't fly. That Tyre dog just won't
                          > hunt.
                          >
                          > Well, that's just another loonie's opinion.
                          >
                          (Frank)
                          If the dog won't hunt for the bird, and if the bird won't fly but, rather,
                          lies low under heavy cover, then, for sure, there is going to be one very
                          frustrated pheasant hunter!.

                          Ron, what you're telling me, and I appreciate your advice, is that the
                          evidence I have presented for the hypothesis that the Thomas community was
                          located at Tyre isn't credible in your eyes. Could you give your definition
                          of *hard* evidence, so I have some idea as to what kind(s) of evidence you
                          would find credible?

                          Frank McCoy
                          1809 N, English Apt. 17
                          Maplewood, MN USA 55109
                        • RSBrenchley@aol.com
                          In a message dated 15/08/02 11:02:33 GMT Daylight Time, ... follows ... GPhilip has Some said that Mary conceived by the holy spirit: they are mistaken, they
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 17, 2002
                            In a message dated 15/08/02 11:02:33 GMT Daylight Time,
                            gthomas@yahoogroups.com writes:

                            > The Trimorphic Protennoia, which is in the NHL also speaks
                            > of Father, Mother & Son. I quote: "Now the Voice which originated from my
                            > Thought exists as three permanences: Father, Mother & Son." (NHLe, 3rd
                            > Edition, page 514). This is, of course, only the tip of the iceberg as the
                            > entire treatise consists of material of this nature; I simply cited the
                            > first incidence I found of it. I do not know Coptic, but I believe an
                            > earlier translation rendered "Son" as "Mother-Father" so I'd have to ask
                            > those on this list who do know Coptic to comment here. There is also a
                            > tradition in Eastern Orthodoxy that Jesus was androgynous, which was also
                            > present in alchemy until its final demise. Since many religious leaders
                            > like several Popes & Martin Luther. among others, were alchemists it
                            follows
                            > that this tradition was still well known in Christianity until at least the
                            > time of the so-called "Scientific Revolution". (Although there is no hard
                            > evidence Luther ever worked with alchemical equipment he praises it in his
                            > correspondence for its "fine symbolism".)
                            >
                            > Jim Bauer
                            > Havre, Montana

                            GPhilip has 'Some said that Mary conceived by the holy spirit: they are
                            mistaken, they do not realise what they say. When did a female ever conceive
                            by a female' (14, Bentley's translation). Most obviously, it's found in
                            GHebrews: 'When Christ wished to come upon the earth to men, the good Father
                            summoned up a mighty power in heaven, which was called Micheal, and entrusted
                            Christ to the care thereof. And the power came into the world and was called
                            Mary, and Christ was in her womb seven months. another faragment has: Here
                            the Saviour says: Even so did my mother, the Holy Spirit, take me by one of
                            my hairs and carry me away onto the great mountain Tabor. (Hennecke's
                            translation).

                            I think the same idea is in the Qur'an but I can't find it. That would
                            indicate that it survived in 7th Century Arabia.

                            Regards,

                            Robert Brenchley
                            RSBrenchley@...
                            Birmingham UK
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