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Re: [GTh] Proto Thomas

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  • fmmccoy
    ... From: Tom Saunders To: Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 3:46 AM Subject: [GTh] Proto Thomas ...
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 18 11:55 AM
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Tom Saunders" <tom@...>
      To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 3:46 AM
      Subject: [GTh] Proto Thomas


      > Thank you Frank McCoy for such an enlightening and detailed work.
      >
      > Could the Proto Thomas be devoid of the parables at some stage in its
      development? If we are looking at a rational organization of literature in
      the GThom, the parables stand out as a type. Why could they not have been
      assembled as a separate core text, and then added at some point?


      :

      Tom, thank you!.

      Your question on whether the parables were collected together as a separate
      text is a good one.

      As far as I can tell, parables are categorized into two basic categories:
      Parabolic Sayings and Parabolic Stories.

      The parameters on what constitutes a parabolic sayings seem vague to me and
      I'm not sure which of the sayings in GTh should be included in this
      category.

      Do you or any other GTh lister know of a generally accepted list of
      parabolic sayings in GTh?

      As respects Parabolic Stories, there are a number of them in the proposed
      Proto-Thomas: 8 (Parable of the Wise Fisherman), 9 (Parable of the Sower),
      63 (Parable of the Rich Fool), 64 (Parable of the Banquet Giver), 65
      (Parable of the Vineyard), 96 (Parable of the Leaven), 97 (Parable of the
      Leaky Jar), and 98 (Parable of the Swordsman).

      There is a non-random pattern to their distribution in Proto-Thomas

      Section 1 (units 2-10): two parabolic stories (units 8 and 9)
      Section 2 (units 31-48 and 61-65), three parabolic stories (units 63, 64,
      and 65)
      Section 3 (units 89-99) three parabolic stories (units 96, 97, and 98)

      Note that the Parabolic Stories occur in three clusters: with each cluster
      occurring at or near the end of each of the three sections.

      That these Parabolic Stories are clustered at or near the end of each of
      the three sections of the postulated Proto-Thomas is significant in two
      respects.

      First, because of the regularity to this pattern, it increases the
      probability that the postulated Proto-Thomas was a real document.

      Second, it indicates that these Parabolic Stories were categorized as a
      distinct class of sayings by the members of the proposed Proto-Thomas
      community.

      This second point is *very* significant: for, if, as appears to be the case,
      they did recognize what we now call the Parabolic Stories to be a distinct
      class of sayings, then the possibility arises that they might have issued a
      document consisting solely of these Parabolic Stories. That is to say, it
      then becomes possible that you are correct in surmising that they could have
      issued a parable document--in this case, a parable document consisting
      solely of Parabolic Stories.

      Now, when we come to postulating what such a document might have looked
      like, I think it noteworthy that, in the proposed Proto-Thomas, each section
      consists of either 9 or 25 units. Further, each 9 unit section, in turn, is
      divisible into three groups, with each group consisting of three units.
      Finally, each 25 unit section, in turn, is divisible into five groups, with
      each group consisting of five units.

      So, if the Proto-Thomas community issued a Parabolic Stories document, one
      would expect it to contain one or more sections, with each section either
      consisting of 9 units (with these 9 units, in turn, divisible into three
      groups, with each group consisting of three units) or else consisting of 25
      units (with these 25 units, in turn, divisible into five groups, with each
      group consisting of five units).

      Now, when we look at the three clusters of Parabolic Stories in
      Proto-Thomas, it is noteworthy that two consist of three units each
      (63,64,65 and 96,97,98) and the third consists of two units each ( 8,9).

      This strongly suggests that the author of Proto-Thomas had access to a
      Parabolic Stories document, consisting of a single section of 9 units, with
      the 9 units divisible into three groups, with each group consisting of three
      units: of which all but one of the units from the first group of three units
      were used in writing Proto-Thomas.

      In this case, 8-9 are two of the Parabolic Stories from the first group of
      three units, 63-65 are the three Parabolic Stories from the second group of
      three units, and 96-98 are the three Parabolic Stores from the third group
      of three units.

      Indeed, the last cluster (96-98), might be a group of three thematically
      related units. It reads:

      96. Jesus [said], "The Kingdom of the Father is like a certain woman. She
      took a little leaven, [concealed] it in some dough, and made it into large
      loaves. Let him who has ears hear."
      97. Jesus said, "The kingdom of the [Father] is like a certain woman who was
      carrying a jar full of meal. While she was walking [on] a road, still some
      distance from home, the handle of the jar broke and the meal emptied out
      befind her on the road. She did not realize it; she had noticed no
      accident.
      When she reached her house, she set the jar down and found it empty,"
      98. Jesus said, "The Kingdom of the Father is like a certain man who wanted
      to kill a powerful man. In his own house he drew his sword and stuck it
      into the wall in order to find out whether his hand could carry through.
      Then he slew the powerful man."

      As can be seen, each of these have something in common, i.e., each is about
      the Kingdom of the Father. So, these three Parabolic Stories are
      thematically related in that they each deal with the topic of the Kingdom of
      the Father.

      The middle cluster (63-65) might also be a group of three thematically
      related units. It reads::

      63. Jesus said, "There was a rich man who had much money. He said, "I shall
      put my money to use so that I may sow, reap, plant, and fill my storehouse
      with produce, with the result that I shall lack nothing.' Such were his
      intentions, but that same night he died. Let him who has ears hear."
      64. Jesus said, "A man had received visitors. And when he had prepared the
      dinner, he sent his servant to invite the guests. He went to the first one
      and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said, 'I have claims against
      some merchants. They are coming to me this evening. I must go and give
      them my orders. I ask to be excused from the dinner.' He went to another
      and said to him, 'My master has invited you.' He said to him, 'My friend is
      going to get married, and I am to prepare the banquet. I shall not be able
      to come. I ask to be excused from the dinner.' He went to another and said
      to him, 'My master invites you.' He said to him, 'I have just bought a
      farm, and I am on my way to collect the rent. I shall not be able to come.
      I ask to be excused.' The servant returned and said to his master, 'Those
      whom you invited to the dinner have asked to be excused.' The master said to
      his servant, 'Go outside to the streets and bring back those whom you happen
      to meet, so that they may dine.' Businessmen and merchants will not enter
      the Places of My Father.'"
      65. He said, "There was a good man who owned a vineyard. He leased it to
      tenant farmers so that they might work it and he might collect the produce
      from them. He sent his servant so that the tenants might give him the
      produce of the vineyard. They seized his servant and beat him, all but
      killing him. The servant went back and told his master. The master said,
      'Perhaps <they> did not recognize <him>.' He sent another servant. The
      tenants beat this one as well. Then the owner sent his son and said,
      'Perhaps they will show respect to my son.' Because the tenants knew that
      it was he who was the heir to the vineyard, they seized him and killed him.
      Let him who has ears hear."

      As can be seen, each of these three Parabolic Stories regards a man who is
      wealthy, but whose plan (to fill his storehouses with produce, to host a
      banquet attended by those he invites, to receive the produce he deserves
      from the tenants) goes awry. So, they are thematically related in that each
      deals with a wealthy man whose plan goes awry.

      Finally, it might be that the first cluster (8-9) consists of two units of a
      three unit group. It reads::

      8. And he said, "The man is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the
      sea and drew it up from the sea full of small fish. Among them the wise
      fisherman found a fine large fish. He threw all the small fish back into the
      sea and chose the large fish without difficulty. Whoever has ears to hear,
      let him hear."
      9. Jesus said, "Now the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and
      scattered them. Some fell on the road; the birds came and gathered them up.
      Others fell on rock, did not take root in the soil, and did not produce
      ears. And others fell on thorns; they choked the seed(s) and worms ate
      them. And others fell on the good soil and produced good fruit: it bore
      sixty per measure and a hundred and twenty per measure."

      These two Parabolic Sayings have a lot in common. Both regard a laboring
      man. In both, the man casts something (a net or a handful of seed). In
      each, there are big disappoints (a lot of little fish of no commercial value
      and a lot of seed that fails to come to fruition), In each, there is one
      major success (the one big fish and the good ground that prodigiously
      produces). So, they might be two Parabolic Stories of a three unit
      group of Parabolic Stories having in common one or more of the above
      features.

      So, to conclude, Tom, I think you have come up with an absolutely brilliant
      idea, i.e., that there might have been a parable document--for the evidence
      suggests that there likely was a Parabolic Sayings document I just wish
      that I had thought of the idea myself!

      The proposed Parabolic Sayings document, which was presumably known to the
      author of Proto-Thomas, with (s)he using eight of its nine Parabolic
      Sayings, consists of three groups, each of which are composed of three
      units:

      Group 1: Common theme is one or more of the following: (1) a laboring man
      (2) who casts something (3) with big disappointments, but (4) one major
      success.
      A an unknown Parabolic Saying not used by the author of Proto-Thomas
      B. 8 The Parable of the Wise Fisherman
      C. 9 The Parable of the Sower

      Group 2: Common theme of a well-to-do man whose plan goes awry:
      A. 63. The Parable of the Rich Fool
      B. 64. The Parable of the Banquet Giver
      C. 65 The Parable of the Vineyard

      Group 3: Common theme of the Kingdom of the Father
      A 96. The Parable of the Leaven
      B 97. The Parable of the Leaky Jar
      C 98. The Parable of the Swordsman

      In this case, the proposed Parabolic Stories document is even earlier than
      the proposed Proto-Thomas and, so, might go back to the mid fifties or even
      earlier.

      Indeed, the key dating criteria indicate a *very* early date for it.

      So, all of the units except unit 8 are assigned by Arnal to the postulated
      early Sapeintial layer. None of them is assigned by him to the postulated
      late Gnostic-leaning layer.

      Again, all but unit 64 are assigned by DeConick to the postulated early
      kernel document and even 64 is partially assigned by him to the postulated
      early kernel document.

      As for the Jesus Seminar, they reject only the genuiness of 8 and (except
      for a few scattered phrases and sentences) rate all the others solid pink
      (probably genuine).

      Indeed, this evidence for an early dating of the proposed Parabolic Stories
      document is so solid that, if it be genuine, I think that it likely dates to
      the 30s.

      (Note: the one unit that has the highest probability of being the creation
      of the Proto-Thomas community, i.e., unit 8, regards a man fishing in the
      sea. This suggests that the Proto-Thomas community was located at a sea
      port--just as is to be expected from the other evidence that they were
      located at the major sea port of Tyre).

      What do you think?

      Frank McCoy
      1809 N. English Apt. 17
      Maplewood, MN USA 55109
    • Jim Bauer
      ... From: fmmccoy To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] Proto Thomas ... Frank, I
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 18 3:15 PM
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "fmmccoy" <FMMCCOY@...>
        To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 12:55 PM
        Subject: Re: [GTh] Proto Thomas


        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Tom Saunders" <tom@...>
        > To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 3:46 AM
        > Subject: [GTh] Proto Thomas
        >
        > Thank you Frank McCoy for such an enlightening and detailed work.
        > Could the Proto Thomas be devoid of the parables at some stage in its
        > development? If we are looking at a rational organization of literature
        > in the GThom, the parables stand out as a type. Why could they not have
        > been assembled as a separate core text, and then added at some point?


        > Tom, thank you!.
        >
        > Your question on whether the parables were collected together as a
        > separate text is a good one.
        >
        > This second point is *very* significant: for, if, as appears to be the
        > case, they did recognize what we now call the Parabolic Stories to be a
        > distinct class of sayings, then the possibility arises that they might have
        > issued a document consisting solely of these Parabolic Stories. That is to
        > say, it then becomes possible that you are correct in surmising that they
        > could have issued a parable document--in this case, a parable document
        > consisting solely of Parabolic Stories.
        >
        > As for the Jesus Seminar, they reject only the genuiness of 8 and (except
        > for a few scattered phrases and sentences) rate all the others solid pink
        > (probably genuine).
        >
        > Indeed, this evidence for an early dating of the proposed Parabolic
        > Stories document is so solid that, if it be genuine, I think that it likely
        > dates to the 30s.
        >
        Frank,

        I agree that the Parobolic Document was indeed very early & probably among
        the genuine sayings of the historical Jesus but you haven't proved one
        thing, which is your assumption that this document was added to Thomas later
        on. Perhaps the original document was the Parobolic one & the rest of GThom
        added to it at a later date.

        Does anyone in the group have a comment on this?

        Jim Bauer
      • fmmccoy
        ... From: Jim Bauer To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] Proto Thomas ... later ...
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 19 9:14 AM
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Jim Bauer" <jbauer@...>
          To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 5:15 PM
          Subject: Re: [GTh] Proto Thomas

          > Frank,
          >
          > I agree that the Parobolic Document was indeed very early & probably among
          > the genuine sayings of the historical Jesus but you haven't proved one
          > thing, which is your assumption that this document was added to Thomas
          later
          > on. Perhaps the original document was the Parobolic one & the rest of
          GThom
          > added to it at a later date.
          >
          > Does anyone in the group have a comment on this?
          >

          Jim:

          To clarify, this is the scenario I propose:

          (1) Tyre--sometime in the mid-50s or earlier, perhaps even the 30s--The
          Parabolic Stories document, consisting of nine parabolic stories attributed
          to Jesus, is written

          (2) Tyre--late 50s--Proto-Thomas is written. While writing it, its author
          incorporated eight of the nine parabolic stories in the Parabolic Stories
          document.

          (3) Location ? --Time ?, but probably much later than the time that
          Proto-Thomas was written, GTh was written as an expanded version of
          Proto-Thomas. It includes everything in Proto-Thomas, including the eight
          parabolic stories originally written as a part of the Parabolic Stories
          document. These eight parabolic stories, in GTh as we know it, are sayings
          8-9, 63-65, and 96-98.

          In this scenario, the Parabolic Stories document precedes Proto-Thomas and
          was used as a source in writing Proto-Thomas.

          However, it would be incorrect to infer from this that Proto-Thomas is an
          expanded version of the Parabolic Stories document. The Parabolic Stories
          document is a list of parabolic stories, while Proto-Thomas is a sayings
          gospel similar to Q (if Q ever existed) and its later expanded version, GTh.
          So, we have a change in doc type between the Parabolic Stories document and
          Proto-Thomas.

          Also, the positioning of the Parabolic Stories document material at or near
          the end of each of the three sections of Proto-Thomas indicates that it is
          not a document upon which Proto-Thomas can be considered an expanded
          version.

          Does this make sense to you?


          Frank McCoy
          1809 N. English Apt. 17
          Maplewood, MN USA 55109
        • Jim Bauer
          ... From: fmmccoy To: Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [GTh] Proto Thomas ... among ...
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 19 11:13 AM
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "fmmccoy" <FMMCCOY@...>
            To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 10:14 AM
            Subject: Re: [GTh] Proto Thomas


            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Jim Bauer" <jbauer@...>
            > To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 5:15 PM
            > Subject: Re: [GTh] Proto Thomas
            >
            > > Frank,
            > >
            > > I agree that the Parobolic Document was indeed very early & probably
            among
            > > the genuine sayings of the historical Jesus but you haven't proved that
            this document was added to Thomas
            > later
            > > on. Perhaps the original document was the Parobolic one & the rest of
            > GThom
            > > added to it at a later date.
            > >
            > Jim:
            >
            > To clarify, this is the scenario I propose:
            >
            > (1) Tyre--sometime in the mid-50s or earlier, perhaps even the 30s--The
            > Parabolic Stories document, consisting of nine parabolic stories
            attributed
            > to Jesus, is written
            >
            Why exactly would there have to be nine Parobolic Sayings in the original
            document? It's equally possible that there were only eight originally & the
            author of Proto-Thomas made use of what he had. Just because the other
            parables are broken down into groups of three does not prove that the first
            two had a missing third. I realize you are trying to find patterns in
            Thomas but to me it seems just as likely that there were eight parables as
            well as nine. If there is indeed a missing parable would it, in your
            opinion, be similar to any of the NT parables & if so which one(s)?

            Jim Bauer
          • Tom Saunders
            Jim Bauer writes: Does anyone in the group have a comment on this? I would like to make the case for jurisdiction, venue, and likelihood for the origin of the
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 19 2:04 PM
              Jim Bauer writes: Does anyone in the group have a comment on this?

              I would like to make the case for jurisdiction, venue, and likelihood for the origin of the first kernel Jesus sayings, being a combination of what any Apostles already had prior to the forming of the Jerusalem village, combined with those made the first three years. (33-36 CE) These documents would have been kernel sayings attributed to Jesus.

              We do not have a credible lineage for written works from this village, as it was destroyed in 70 A.D. We do have the history of the Apostles Council in 41 CE. We can relate sections of the GThom to this era. As a matter of fact I do not recall any association with any Thomas saying that could be linked to a time and event outside the findings (related to Jewish law) of the First Apostolic Council. This is with the possible exception of saying 114 as an add on.

              The sayings in Thomas that relate to the Pauline era, are the ones that age and align the document to the issues of the First Apostolic Council. This leaves other types of sayings that could well have originated from other lists, including the parables and those list sayings that relate to the term "blessed" or "fortunate." (If you change those translations in Thomas that use fortunate to blessed, there are comparisons in early gospels that suggest that Matthew, Tatian, and others may have had such a document. Woe to's and Blesseds are.

              In Matthew all the blesseds are in bundles, as they are in the Diatessaran. These blesseds are in conjunction with groups of "Woe to's." I will post the blesseds and skip the Woes. (below)

              Tatain:
              26 Then he lifted up his eyes unto them, and opened his mouth, and taught them, and said, Blessed are the poor in spirit: for the kingdom of heaven is theirs. 28 Blessed are the sorrowful: for they shall be comforted. 29 Blessed are the humble: for they shall inherit the earth. 30 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be satisfied. 31 Blessed are the merciful: for on them shall be mercy. 32 Arabic, Blessed are the pure in their hearts: for they shall see God. 33 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the sons of God. 34 Blessed are they that were persecuted for righteousness' sake: for the kingdom of heaven is theirs. 35 Blessed are ye when men shall hate you, and separate you from them, and persecute you, and reproach you, and shall speak against you with all evil talk, for my sake, falsely. Then rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets before you.

              From Matthew:

              1. And seeing the multitudes, he went up into the mountain: and when he had sat down, his disciples came unto him:
              2. and he opened his mouth and taught them, saying,
              3. Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
              4. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
              5. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
              6. Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
              7. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
              8. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
              9. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.
              10. Blessed are they that have been persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
              11. Blessed are ye when men shall reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.


              Thomas: Fortunate = Blessed
              7. Fortunate is the lion which the man eats so that the lion becomes a man
              ; and cursed is the man whom the lion eats so that the man becomes a
              lion."
              (18) The disciples said to Jesus : "Tell us how our end will be." Jesus said : "So have You discovered the beginning, that You look for the end ? For where the beginning is, there the end will be. Fortunate is he who stands at the beginning ; he will know the end and will not taste death." (19) Jesus said : "Fortunate is he who was before he became. If You become My disciples and listen to My words, these stones will serve You. For there are five trees for You in Paradise which remain unshaken summer and winter and their leaves do not fall. He who knows them will not taste death." 54. Fortunate are the poor, for Yours is the Kingdom of Heaven."
              58. Fortunate is the man who has suffered ; he found Life."
              68. Fortunate are You when You are hated and persecuted. Where You were
              persecuted they will find no place."
              69. Fortunate are those who are persecuted in their hearts. It is they who
              have truly come to know the Father.
              69. Fortunate are those who are hungry, for they will satisfy their
              bellies."
              49. Fortunate are You, the alone and the elect, for You will find the
              Kingdom. Because You came from it, You will also return to it again."
              79. Fortunate are those who have heard the Word of the Father and kept it.

              If it seems sensible for the parables to have come from a single list, then it seems just as logical for the lists of 'Blesseds and Woes' to have come about as a kernel text. We see these 'blesseds and woes' in Thomas sort of custom fitted for the text, as well as distributed. Although if you happen to notice the number 9 sort of sticks out in the Thomas list. I do not know what we (I) could make of that.

              From a practical standpoint it makes a great deal of sense for Thomas to have come from a combination of sources. Its purpose is to divulge the Secret Sayings of Christ, and we know it was used as a tool for evangelism which gives it the rightful category of gospel.

              We also know it existed in some form very early, having one copy found in Egypt which is very old. (90-100 A.D. Rudolph) Based upon what you can see from the works like Marcion's gospel and Tatian, as well as the NT gospels, it seems that sayings were written in Thomas very faithfully from like sources. Although its order is a mystery unless you see it written purposely like Oriental precepts for use in the East. Then, it makes some sense, to some as a tool for Eastern consumption.

              With the exception of 114, I see nothing that would suggest that the early versions of Thomas were not copied faithfully from the source texts of Jesus sayings. We know people like Marcion and Tatian to have used care in their works to copy from an original source. I think it likely for the original GThom to have come from the Apostle's Village, in parts, then assembled not much later than 42 CE., possibly the original from Thomas himself. If he was like his legend he would have left something like Thomas, which flat out makes people think. He founded churches and it is likely he used some written works, what better for Thomas than Thomas?

              If it makes sense for the kernel texts attributed to Jesus to have originated in the Apostles Village, then we can see this in terms of a window of opportunity. Thomas had a long ministry, and one that would have given him, for a time direct communication through the trade routes, to have passed Thomas on to others, including the Apostle's Village. I am saying he had a big window of opportunity to have produced Thomas, and distribute it. He also in 41 CE had the opportunity to collect written works produced in Jerusalem by other Apostles, and adjust Thomas to the findings of the Council. Can this be wrong?

              Tom Saunders Platter Flats, OK

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Grondin
              ... ... In most cases (Th79 being an exception), the underlying Greek word is the same - MAKARIOS. Some may recall that this is a name taken by some notable
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 19 4:28 PM
                [Tom Saunders]:
                > (If you change those translations in Thomas that use fortunate to blessed
                ...

                In most cases (Th79 being an exception), the underlying Greek word is the
                same - MAKARIOS. Some may recall that this is a name taken by some notable
                archbishops of the Eastern Orthodox church. 'Blessed' is the traditional
                translation, but 'fortunate' is becoming more common, since 'blessed' now
                lacks the punch of the original, which was akin to telling folks that
                they're _lucky_ to be weak, dispirited, meek, down-trodden, etc. (Also note
                the difference between "poor" - i.e., destitute - and "poor in spirit"
                between different versions of the beatitudes. This little difference of
                wording may be a clue to the author's opinion of the ascetic life-style.)

                Your list of Thomas: 7,18,19,49,54,58,68,69(2),79.
                As it turns out, #79 doesn't contain the word MAKARIOS. Rather, it contains
                three occurrences of a Coptic synonym which only occurs there. You may still
                want to include it in your list, but you might want to consider whether the
                choice of the Coptic word over the Greek might have indicated that the
                author did not want it to be considered among the beatitudes proper. Also,
                #103 _does_ contain the word MAKARIOS, so that should certainly be added to
                your list.

                I don't know how you went about making your list of beatitudes in Thomas,
                but it's well to keep in mind that English translations are not an accurate
                guide for researches of this sort. Translators don't always use the same
                English word for the same source-language word, and they sometimes use the
                same English word for different source-language words. Because of this, a
                recommended procedure to insure accuracy is to check out all occurrences of
                the underlying source words. Not to toot my own horn unnecessarily, but I
                think that my on-line presentation provides a relatively easy way to do
                this - once one gets used to the odd letters.

                Mike Grondin
                The Coptic Gospel of Thomas, saying-by-saying
                http://www.geocities.com/mwgrondin/sayings.htm
              • Tom Saunders
                Mike writes: In most cases (Th79 being an exception), the underlying Greek word is the same - MAKARIOS. Thank you for your observations and talent in
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 20 3:31 PM
                  Mike writes:
                  In most cases (Th79 being an exception), the underlying Greek word is the
                  same - MAKARIOS.

                  Thank you for your observations and talent in translation. I would not think that the 'Blesseds' and 'Woes' in Thomas were meant to match the bundles of the sayings present in Matthew. Many on this list may be familiar with other early works that reflect the same bunching of the 'blesseds and woe' sayings. This might reveal a better notion of some early source for these sayings.

                  My point about these sayings in Thomas is to reveal that the poor, hungry, hated and persecuted, bleesed seems to be from an early list source we see in other works. However in Thomas the distribution looks somewhat purposeful, in line with the balance and rhythm that Frank McCoy notes in the form of the GThom.

                  In other words, the writer of Thomas appears to have some purpose rather than just creating a list. Otherwise there would be little reason to distribute these kinds of sayings throughout the rest of the Thomas sayings. Any ideas on what this could be?

                  Tom Saunders
                  Platter Flats, OK




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