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RE: [GTh] The Mystery of Th61

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  • Michael Grondin
    ... One correction: kingdom of the heavens also occurs in sayings 20 and 54. Also, while living spirit is unique to 114, I myself wouldn t go so far as to
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 24, 2001
      Rick Hubbard wrote:
      >[D] Some commentators suggest that GTh 114 is a later addition to
      >Thomas (e.g., Davies, 1983), where it is observed that only here
      >does a saying begin with a disciple addressing another disciple,
      >the image of Jesus as a guide occurs nowhere else in Thomas, the
      >phrase "Kingdom of Heaven" is distinctive in Thomas, the idea
      >that a person should become "a living spirit" does not cohere
      >with anything else in Thomas, and perhaps most significantly,
      >this saying directly contradicts GTh 22.

      One correction: 'kingdom of the heavens' also occurs in sayings 20 and 54.
      Also, while 'living spirit' is unique to 114, I myself wouldn't go so far
      as to say that it doesn't cohere with anything else in Thomas. One could
      argue that it's consistent with asceticism, and certainly both the emphasis
      on 'spirit' and the special sense of 'living' are elsewhere in Thomas. If
      we're talking about sayings that "stick out like a sore thumb", however, my
      favorite is L77; the grandiose claims made there for Jesus seem totally out
      of line with anything else in Thomas, in addition to the fact that its
      ending is found at a different location in the POxy fragments.

      Mike Grondin
      --------------
      Mt Clemens, MI
    • Rick Hubbard
      ... to ... [Mike Replied;] One correction: kingdom of the heavens also occurs in sayings 20 and 54. Also, while living spirit is unique to 114, I myself
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 24, 2001
        Rick Hubbard wrote:
        >[D] Some commentators suggest that GTh 114 is a later addition
        to
        >Thomas (e.g., Davies, 1983), where it is observed that only here
        >does a saying begin with a disciple addressing another disciple,
        >the image of Jesus as a guide occurs nowhere else in Thomas, the
        >phrase "Kingdom of Heaven" is distinctive in Thomas, the idea
        >that a person should become "a living spirit" does not cohere
        >with anything else in Thomas, and perhaps most significantly,
        >this saying directly contradicts GTh 22.

        [Mike Replied;]
        One correction: 'kingdom of the heavens' also occurs in sayings
        20 and 54.
        Also, while 'living spirit' is unique to 114, I myself wouldn't
        go so far
        as to say that it doesn't cohere with anything else in Thomas.
        One could
        argue that it's consistent with asceticism, and certainly both
        the emphasis
        on 'spirit' and the special sense of 'living' are elsewhere in
        Thomas. If
        we're talking about sayings that "stick out like a sore thumb",
        however, my
        favorite is L77; the grandiose claims made there for Jesus seem
        totally out
        of line with anything else in Thomas, in addition to the fact
        that its
        ending is found at a different location in the POxy fragments.

        My apologies. Several other corrections, actually, may be due.

        To begin, I neglected to properly acknowledge that these
        assertions are those of Davies (op cit, pp152-153), and that they
        relate to his controversial arguments that Thomas "[...] may have
        originally been divided into four chapters or sections." [p 149].
        Davies says there, "In Thomas we find [in what he calls Chapter
        D] the phrase "Kingdom of the Father' appearing in 96, 97, 98, 99
        113. Only in 114 is Kingdom of heaven present." You are correct,
        then, by calling attention to 20 and 54 where these same phrases
        also occur, because those same phrases do in fact occur where you
        say. Saying 54 Davies assigns to his Chapter B. I have no idea
        where he would place GTh 20, based on the table in pp150-151,
        however.

        You are also correct, mostly, about the motif of "living." As I
        review it, the motif does emerge elsewhere in GTh. I'm confused,
        however, by "L77" which you cite as evidence for the "grandiose
        claims" made by J. Is this related to the "living motif?" (And,
        do you mean Line 077=[NHC 34:24], or GTh 77? The latter sounds
        most likely).

        But, all this aside, I STILL think that your notion that there
        are happnin's in the text of Thomas that deserve closer
        evaluation.

        Rick Hubbard
        Humble Maine Woodsman
      • Michael Grondin
        ... In the lengthy table that occupies most of pp. 150-151, Davies lists only those sayings where he finds analogues in at least three of his four chapters .
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 24, 2001
          At 08:09 PM 08/24/01 -0400, you wrote:
          > I have no idea where [Davies] would place GTh 20,
          > based on the table in pp150-151 ...

          In the lengthy table that occupies most of pp. 150-151, Davies lists only
          those sayings where he finds analogues in at least three of his four
          "chapters". Above that table, however, he defines the "chapters" as:
          A: 2- 37 (36 sayings)
          B: 38- 58 (21 sayings)
          C: 59- 91 (33 sayings)
          D: 92-113 (22 sayings)

          Basically, he took GTh as is and tried to find a pattern to it. He didn't
          consider the possibility of some sayings or sub-sayings being intentionally
          out-of-place, becuz who would, given the lack of any known exemplar of such
          a textual phenomenon?

          >do you mean Line 077 ... or GTh 77? The latter sounds most likely).

          Yep. (I wasn't connecting it with the "living" motif, BTW.) I saw someone
          using 'Ln' for 'logion n', and I thought it might be a neat alternative to
          'Thn'. Apparently not :-)

          Regards,
          Mike
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