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GTh 61

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  • Rpavenue@aol.com
    This is the first entry I have ever made for this discussion group, and at the risk of being naive, I am going to ask, ---is it possible that the statement, I
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 13, 2001
      This is the first entry I have ever made for this discussion group, and at
      the risk of being naive, I am going to ask, ---is it possible that the
      statement, "I am your disciple was made by Salome to Jesus and not the other
      way around. It appears to me to be a dialogue. First Salome speaks, then
      Jesus speaks, then Salome speaks again. Maybe this is just too simple an
      answer.

      I do enjoy reading the discourse, but I am not a translator, just an
      interpretter. Thanks Ray


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • mgrondin@tir.com
      ... Yes, this is the way it s usually interpreted. One of the reasons that George is investigating a more unorthodox way of reading it is, I take it, that the
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 14, 2001
        --- Rpavenue@a... wrote:
        > is it possible that the statement, "I am your disciple" was made
        > by Salome to Jesus and not the other way around? It appears to me
        > to be a dialogue. First Salome speaks, then Jesus speaks, then
        > Salome speaks again.

        Yes, this is the way it's usually interpreted. One of the reasons
        that George is investigating a more unorthodox way of reading it
        is, I take it, that the expected phrase "Salome said to him" is
        missing from the text. Some translators go so far as to insert
        that phrase into the text, judging it to have been inadvertently
        left out by the scribe. On the face of it, the choice of the
        Coptic morpheme 'TEK', which was the masculine form of 'your'
        (for a feminine noun such as 'disciple'), indicates that the
        statement was addressed to a male, hence that, of the two, Salome
        must have been the one saying it. George is trying to argue his
        way out of that conclusion by showing that the 'TEK' should not
        be taken at face value.

        Mike
      • George Duffy
        ... Yes, that s part of it. But also, I think the usual way of reading this saying, what I would call the uninvited guest scenario, seems awkward and a little
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 14, 2001
          --- In gthomas@y..., mgrondin@t... wrote:

          > --- Rpavenue@a... wrote:
          > > is it possible that the statement, "I am your disciple" was made
          > > by Salome to Jesus and not the other way around? It appears to me
          > > to be a dialogue. First Salome speaks, then Jesus speaks, then
          > > Salome speaks again.
          >
          > Yes, this is the way it's usually interpreted. One of the reasons
          > that George is investigating a more unorthodox way of reading it
          > is, I take it, that the expected phrase "Salome said to him" is
          > missing from the text.

          Yes, that's part of it. But also, I think the usual way of reading
          this saying, what I would call the uninvited guest scenario, seems
          awkward and a little odd.

          In 61:2, we have Salome saying to Jesus, "Who are you, man, that you
          have come up on my couch and eaten from my table as a stranger." I
          think the emhasis should be placed on the word, "my," as in "why *my*
          table." She's conveying wonder that he has chosen her company, rather
          than expressing indignation that he has invaded her turf. I wonder
          too if the phrase, "as a stranger" refers to him or does it refer to
          herself. That sets up an opportunity for Jesus to convey to her and
          demonstrate to her that she is his equal, at the most basic level.

          Now, I admit that it's possible for the story to have her so blown
          away by his resonse of 61:3, that she immediately declares herself a
          disciple. But with the suspicious absence of the identification of
          the speaker of this declaration as Salome, I think it more likely that
          Jesus said it, as a demonstration of his willingness to immediately
          shed his specialness in a dramatic way. He then explains in 61:5 why
          such a joining in equality with others (presumable in thought and
          deed)results in light, whereas division or separation brings darkness.

          So, for what it's worth, I'm suggesting this alternative
          interpretation.

          All the best,

          George Duffy
        • Miceal Ledwith
          Dear Mike, Thanks for your reply. Believe I always welcome new insights and information and if that dissuades me from my views I more than welcome it. Right
          Message 4 of 4 , Sep 5, 2001
            Dear Mike,
            Thanks for your reply. Believe I always welcome new insights and information
            and if that dissuades me from my views I more than welcome it. Right now am
            just about to depart for Italy for some lectures at Bologna so will not be
            much on line if at all during the next two weeks, but I look forward to
            continuing our discussion on my return.

            Sincerely
            Miceal Ledwith
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