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Re: [GTh] Fw: [GospelofThomas] Re: Salome: A Modest Proposal :#61

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  • Jack Kilmon
    ... From: Ron McCann To: Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 9:01 AM Subject: [GTh] Fw: [GospelofThomas] Re:
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 10, 2001
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Ron McCann" <ronmccann1@...>
      To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 9:01 AM
      Subject: [GTh] Fw: [GospelofThomas] Re: Salome: A Modest Proposal :#61


      > Hello, all,
      >
      > Currently there is a discussion taking place on the general Gospel of
      Thomas list about logion 61, the Salome saying. I posted what follows, and
      although not likely up to the scholarly standards for this list, I thought
      some of you might still find it of interest.
      >
      > I am grateful to Mike for having cleared up one mystery by pointing out
      that it was Josephus who gave the name of the dancer, Herodias's daughter,
      as Salome, the same name as the disciple Salome.
      >
      > Best Regards,
      >
      > Ron
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Ron McCann
      > To: GospelofThomas@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 7:33 PM
      > Subject: [GospelofThomas] Re: Salome: A Modest Proposal :#61
      >
      >
      > Hi, All. SALOME: A MODEST PROPOSAL
      >
      > This is a bit out of step with the present discussions of 61 so I thought
      I would open a new thread. I've done a lot of thinking about this saying and
      I would like to propose something new about how we view it, and what it can
      teach us, apart from the meaning of Jesus' teaching in it.
      >
      > Firstly, let's deal with Salome. What do we know of her? #61 tells us she
      was a disciple. Mark, introduces her in Mk 15v40 as among those who
      witnessed the crucifixion.
      >
      > "40: There were also woman looking on from a distance; among them were
      Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and Joses, and
      Salome."
      > "41:These used to follow him and provided for him when he was in Galilee;
      and there we many other women who had come up with him to Jerusalem."
      >
      > In Mark 16, she is among those who bring spices to the tomb, discover it
      empty and see an "angel", who says Jesus had been resurrected.
      >
      > "1:When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the Mother of
      James, and Salome brought spices, so that they might go and anoint him."
      >
      > So Salome was also a witness to the Resurrection. She is a vital witness
      to the Christian cause.
      >
      > Now, BELIEVE IT OR NOT SHE IS NEVER MENTIONED AGAIN in the 4 Gospels. This
      is the ONLY reference to her; and yet here she is, in the 5th Gospel,
      Thomas. (This, I believe has some implications for DATING Thomas, as well.)
      And the incident recorded in Thomas, as we shall see, appears to be the
      Calling of Salome, as a Disciple, her Confession of Faith ("I am your
      disciple") and the confirmation of her acceptance by being given "a
      teaching".
      >
      > In Thomas, she is one important lady, as she is in Mark.
      >
      > (Let me dispel. at this juncture, the widely-held notion that the Gospels
      say that someone called Salome is the one who danced for Herod and demanded
      the head of the Baptist on a platter. I don't know where this comes from,
      but I do know it is not from the Gospels. They only refer to this dancer as
      the daughter of Herodias. If it comes from "tradition" it may be nothing
      more than an attempt to smear Salome's name by association- like they seem
      to have done with the second witness in this group, Mary Magdalene- by
      converting her into a prostitute- but I get ahead of myself).


      Ron, you seem to be equating the Salome (Shelomzion, the feminine form of
      Solomon), daughter of Herodias, with Salome, the mother of the brothers
      Zebediya. Although the prosopography of the relatives and family of Jesus
      must be extracted from multiple canonical and non-canonical sources, the
      Salome who was a follower (and supporter) of Jesus..and present at the
      crucifixion...appears to have been his aunt, Mary's sister. Josephus' "off
      with his head" Salome, and daughter of Herodias (and Herod Philip)...was
      probably named after Salome Alexandra, the widow of Alexander Jannaeus and
      last Hasmonean ruler. It is true, however, that the blood
      relatives..including brothers and sisters...of Jesus are played down in the
      canonical works. These people who grew up with, knew, studied with, or was
      taught by Jesus in that historically grey and misty early Jewish assembly
      period for which we HOPED the GThom would shed some light, believed
      (according to patristic accounts) that Jesus was ADOPTED by God on the
      occasion of his baptism rather than having been a virgin-born "zapped by God
      in the womb" son of God. The original followers, friends and family of
      Jesus therefore become an embarrassment to the developing christology of the
      canonical works and as a result, know little more about them than their
      names.

      Jack


      -----
      ______________________________________________

      Dakma dabadton l'chad min haleyn achi zoreh li hav abadton

      Jack Kilmon
      San Marcos, Tx
      jkilmon@...

      http://www.historian.net

      sharing a meal for free.
      http://www.thehungersite.com/
    • Michael Grondin
      One of the things I like about Ron s note was his suggestion that Clement lied to his correspondent about the content of the Secret Gospel of Mark , when he
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 10, 2001
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        One of the things I like about Ron's note was his suggestion that Clement
        lied to his correspondent about the content of the "Secret Gospel of Mark",
        when he (Clement) said that Jesus had not received Salome et al at Jericho.
        This hadn't occurred to me before, but it does make sense. However, I'm
        still not entirely convinced of the authenticity of Morton Smith's "find".
        Since Jack is (or was) online, perhaps he can comment on the current status
        of that issue. Last I heard, Charlie Hedrick was gonna go to the Mar Saba
        Abbey to see if he could locate the text which thus far only Morton Smith
        (now deceased) claims to have seen (and copied down).

        Mike
      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: Michael Grondin To: Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] Salome ... Mark , ...
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 10, 2001
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Michael Grondin" <mgrondin@...>
          To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 12:44 PM
          Subject: Re: [GTh] Salome


          > One of the things I like about Ron's note was his suggestion that Clement
          > lied to his correspondent about the content of the "Secret Gospel of
          Mark",
          > when he (Clement) said that Jesus had not received Salome et al at
          Jericho.
          > This hadn't occurred to me before, but it does make sense. However, I'm
          > still not entirely convinced of the authenticity of Morton Smith's "find".
          > Since Jack is (or was) online, perhaps he can comment on the current
          status
          > of that issue. Last I heard, Charlie Hedrick was gonna go to the Mar Saba
          > Abbey to see if he could locate the text which thus far only Morton Smith
          > (now deceased) claims to have seen (and copied down).

          Not exactly, Mike. Archimandrite Melito took the 1646 Voss edition of
          Ignatius (in which the Clement letter was written on the flyleaves) to the
          Patriarchate Library in Jerusalem in 1977. Kallistos Dourvas removed the
          pages from the book (I think that was a big mistake) in order to photograph
          them,
          which he did. Now, in addition to Smith's photographs, these new
          photographs
          are now viewable at the Westar Institute website:

          http://www.westarinstitute.org/westar/news/secretmk1.html

          The Archimandrite and Dourvas have seen the document and do not dispute
          its existence. The palaeography of the photographs is convincing as is the
          Clementine style. Hedrick is hoping to see the pages this year but I
          believe
          the monks have been stalling because once the leaves were stupidly removed
          from the Voss book (sorry for the harsh opinion), I think they were lost.

          Let's hope they were not accidentally or deliberately destroyed and Hedrick
          gets the opportunity to examine them this year.

          Jack


          -----
          ______________________________________________

          Dakma dabadton l'chad min haleyn achi zoreh li hav abadton

          Jack Kilmon
          San Marcos, Tx
          jkilmon@...

          http://www.historian.net

          sharing a meal for free.
          http://www.thehungersite.com/
        • Jack Kilmon
          ... Clement ... find . ... Saba ... Smith ... photograph ... Ooops! That should be: http://www.westarinstitute.org/Westar/News/SecretMk1/secretmk1.html Why
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 10, 2001
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            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Michael Grondin" <mgrondin@...>
            > To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 12:44 PM
            > Subject: Re: [GTh] Salome
            >
            >
            > > One of the things I like about Ron's note was his suggestion that
            Clement
            > > lied to his correspondent about the content of the "Secret Gospel of
            > Mark",
            > > when he (Clement) said that Jesus had not received Salome et al at
            > Jericho.
            > > This hadn't occurred to me before, but it does make sense. However, I'm
            > > still not entirely convinced of the authenticity of Morton Smith's
            "find".
            > > Since Jack is (or was) online, perhaps he can comment on the current
            > status
            > > of that issue. Last I heard, Charlie Hedrick was gonna go to the Mar
            Saba
            > > Abbey to see if he could locate the text which thus far only Morton
            Smith
            > > (now deceased) claims to have seen (and copied down).
            >
            > Not exactly, Mike. Archimandrite Melito took the 1646 Voss edition of
            > Ignatius (in which the Clement letter was written on the flyleaves) to the
            > Patriarchate Library in Jerusalem in 1977. Kallistos Dourvas removed the
            > pages from the book (I think that was a big mistake) in order to
            photograph
            > them,
            > which he did. Now, in addition to Smith's photographs, these new
            > photographs
            > are now viewable at the Westar Institute website:
            >
            > http://www.westarinstitute.org/westar/news/secretmk1.html

            Ooops! That should be:

            http://www.westarinstitute.org/Westar/News/SecretMk1/secretmk1.html

            Why can't I ever type a URL right?

            Jack
          • Peter Kirby
            ... From: Ron McCann To: Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 7:01 AM Subject: [GTh] Fw: [GospelofThomas] Re:
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 10, 2001
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Ron McCann <ronmccann1@...>
              To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 7:01 AM
              Subject: [GTh] Fw: [GospelofThomas] Re: Salome: A Modest Proposal :#61


              [snip]
              >
              > In Thomas the saying has been softened and neutered. In Luke, the only
              other Gospel in which this saying or it's parallel is found, it has not been
              and can be read "suggestively". Thomas reads:-
              >
              > 61a "Two will recline on a couch, one will die. One will live."
              >
              > In Luke 17: 33-35 it reads "I tell you that in that Night (Judgement Day)
              there shall be two men in one bed, the one shall be taken, and the other
              left..."
              >
              > Coincidence that both can be read suggestively and both are grouped in
              this logion? And if the original read "bed" and Thomas softened it to
              "couch" here, did the original word in the Salome portion read "bed" and was
              it too softened to "couch"? "climb on my bed"?

              I don't know Coptic, but I know a little Greek, and the Greek word used in
              Luke here is klinhv, a word which can be translated either as bed or as
              couch.

              The Coptic is a translation from the Greek, so it really doesn't matter what
              the Coptic word's connotations are, so long as the Coptic word is a
              recongizable translation possibility for the Greek word klinh. Nonetheless,
              according to Mike Grondin, the Coptic word can be translated either as couch
              or as bed (see near the bottom).

              http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9068/lex_ce.htm

              Also, you might want to look into the Gospel of the Egyptians, which
              mentions Salome.

              http://home.earthlink.net/~kirby/writings/egyptians-english.html

              best,
              Peter Kirby
              http://home.earthlink.net/~kirby/writings/
            • mgrondin@tir.com
              ... As Peter Kirby notes, there s no apparent softening or neutering in the Thomas saying. The word in question was usually used to mean bed , and so
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 10, 2001
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                --- Ron McCann wrote:
                > In Thomas the saying has been softened and neutered. In Luke, the
                > only other Gospel in which this saying or it's parallel is found,
                > it has not been and can be read "suggestively".

                As Peter Kirby notes, there's no apparent "softening" or "neutering"
                in the Thomas saying. The word in question was usually used to mean
                'bed', and so someone who was unfamiliar with the Grecian style of
                dining might conclude (as the Carpocratians did?) that Salome was
                saying that Jesus had both slept and ate with her. But even then,
                it must have seemed extremely odd for a woman who had slept with a
                man to suddenly ask later, "Say, who are you, anyway?" (Well, not
                counting wives, who occasionally imply something of the sort when
                their husbands have acted in typically stupid manly fashion :-)

                If mostly fictionalized, the point of the Salome pericope may have
                been the discordance between J's ordinary human activities and the
                exalted status that either he claimed for himself, or that others
                later claimed on his behalf. This discordance is evident in the
                canonical Nazareth episodes, where townsfolk are made to ask "Isn't
                he the carpenter's son?", or some such. Here, in Th61B, Salome is
                presented as a person who's seen Jesus engaged in normal activities
                in a normal way, and thus is astonished that he can present himself
                as somebody worthy of note - a "big shot", as it were.
                Unfortunately, the resolution of the discordance isn't at all
                convincing, since it's unlikely in the extreme that Salome (or
                anyone else in their right mind) would have keeled right over and
                become J's disciple simply on the basis of something he might say.
                In that respect, the whole story sounds as fishy as the "calling"
                of the sons of Zebedee, who drop everything they're doing when J
                says "Follow me!". The historical core, if there was one, must
                certainly have been quite different.

                M.
                p.s.: I never thought about it before, but what's that stuff in
                Luke about two men sleeping together on a bed? Is that metaphorical
                or what?
              • Ron McCann
                On Aug 17th, Jack wrote- ... off ... Jack, No such equating was intended. Rather I was intending to suggest that the disciple Salome had nothing to do with
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 10, 2001
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                  On Aug 17th, Jack wrote-

                  > Ron, you seem to be equating the Salome (Shelomzion, the feminine form of
                  > Solomon), daughter of Herodias, with Salome, the mother of the brothers
                  > Zebediya. Although the prosopography of the relatives and family of Jesus
                  > must be extracted from multiple canonical and non-canonical sources, the
                  > Salome who was a follower (and supporter) of Jesus..and present at the
                  > crucifixion...appears to have been his aunt, Mary's sister. Josephus'
                  "off
                  > with his head" Salome, and daughter of Herodias (and Herod Philip)...was
                  > probably named after Salome Alexandra, the widow of Alexander Jannaeus and
                  > last Hasmonean ruler>

                  Jack,

                  No such equating was intended. Rather I was intending to suggest that the
                  disciple Salome had nothing to do with the dancer Salome, (Herodias's
                  daughter who danced for Herod); and that only one Salome- the disciple- is
                  mentioned in the Gospels.- the other Salome- the dancer- remaining unnamed
                  there. Almost anyone will tell you that a woman named Salome was the woman
                  who danced for Herod. I was curious as to how that belief had come about.
                  Sorry if my words mislead you on that point.

                  You know, after I posted that. I got to thinking about Salome being
                  mentioned in the very last chapter of Mark, with all three of the women
                  fleeing in fear. It abruptly ends, and as many have observed that there has
                  to have been more, but the proper ending is missing. Quite clearly, this
                  ending was missing in Matthew and Luke's copies, too. Hard to imagine it was
                  "lost" such that it could not be recovered, in just 10 years.

                  In keeping with my thesis, do you suppose the original ending may have been
                  deliberately amputated because it contained the risen Jesus interacting with
                  the later-disgraced Salome in some too familiar way, as had presumably been
                  done in the case of the Jericho incident? Or did the Secret Mark ending
                  perhaps contain "secret resurrection teachings" which had to be excised, as
                  the Lazarus Initiation story was, leaving a truncated Normal Mark. Secret
                  teachings were clearly not an issue in the Jericho, incident if you buy what
                  Clement said was written there. Salome's relationship with Jesus was.
                  Perhaps the original ending has the risen Jesus giving Salome "secret
                  resurrection teachings". Now wouldn't that "fry your bacon" if you are
                  trying to discredit her?

                  I guess my point is that the true ending of Mark may have been deliberately
                  deleted for either or both of these reasons, rather than "accidentally"
                  lost. And such editing would have to have taken place between the writing of
                  the Secret Gospel and 80 CE when Matthew first got his hands on the reworked
                  copy.

                  Just a stray thought. And I have another one. Another idea worth exploring,
                  is the
                  alternative possibility that Salome may have had to be discredited because
                  she "defected" to the Thomas camp, and became their darling. Ergo- they
                  record her "Call" in the Gospel of Thomas.

                  Best Wishes,

                  Ron
                • Ron McCann
                  Peter, Many thanks for your post. I take your point. Thomas didn t soften this saying by electing to use couch instead of bed . I was quite wrong. Our
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 10, 2001
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                    Peter,

                    Many thanks for your post.

                    I take your point. Thomas didn't "soften" this saying by electing to use
                    "couch" instead of "bed". I was quite wrong. Our modern translators who used
                    it, did. (grin). As you point out, the two meanings seems to be
                    interchangeable in both the Coptic and in the Greek version-the one likely
                    read by the Carpos. And they probably read it in 61b as "bed", since that
                    suited their agenda more.

                    Of the seven translations I looked at since your post arrived, three use
                    "couch" in both 61a and 61b, two use "bed" in both sayings, and the
                    remaining two use "bed" in the first and "couch" in the second. I tend to go
                    with the "couch" crowd, especially in 61b since a formal diner seems to be
                    indicated.. Thank you for the URL to that Lexicon site. It was most helpful.

                    I also want to express my thanks for drawing my attention to the Gospel of
                    The Egyptians and Salome's presence in most of the fragments from it. I had
                    done a search of all the Nag Hammadi texts for "Salome", and apart from a
                    brief and useless reference in the First Apocalypse of James, and of course,
                    in Thomas, there was nothing. I had completely forgotten about this Gospel
                    and its' Salome content. It's a shame there is not more of it. Still, it
                    indicates SOMEONE ELSE thought Salome was an important lady, that she had a
                    close relationship to Jesus as a disciple, and that Jesus entrusted to her
                    some important teachings, as he is shown to have done in Thomas 61b. Funny
                    she got "deep sixed".

                    Thanks for having that site. It's a jewel.

                    Best Wishes,

                    Ron

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Peter Kirby" <kirby@...>
                    To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 2:08 PM
                    Subject: Re: [GTh] Fw: [GospelofThomas] Re: Salome: A Modest Proposal :#61


                    > I don't know Coptic, but I know a little Greek, and the Greek word used in
                    > Luke here is klinhv, a word which can be translated either as bed or as
                    > couch.
                    >
                    > The Coptic is a translation from the Greek, so it really doesn't matter
                    what
                    > the Coptic word's connotations are, so long as the Coptic word is a
                    > recongizable translation possibility for the Greek word klinh.
                    Nonetheless,
                    > according to Mike Grondin, the Coptic word can be translated either as
                    couch
                    > or as bed (see near the bottom).
                    >
                    > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9068/lex_ce.htm
                    >
                    > Also, you might want to look into the Gospel of the Egyptians, which
                    > mentions Salome.
                    >
                    > http://home.earthlink.net/~kirby/writings/egyptians-english.html
                    >
                    > best,
                    > Peter Kirby
                    > http://home.earthlink.net/~kirby/writings/
                    >
                    >
                    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                    > To unsubscribe from this group,
                    > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Steve Allison
                    ... Paul wanted women to keep silent in church. So there must have been some women who were not. Evidently, then, Salome was one of them. His way eventually
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 11, 2001
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                      At 12:26 AM 08/11/2001 -0600, Ron McCann wrote:
                      >Still, it
                      >indicates SOMEONE ELSE thought Salome was an important lady, that she had a
                      >close relationship to Jesus as a disciple, and that Jesus entrusted to her
                      >some important teachings, as he is shown to have done in Thomas 61b. Funny
                      >she got "deep sixed".


                      Paul wanted women to keep silent in church. So there must have been some
                      women who were not. Evidently, then, Salome was one of them. His way
                      eventually won.


                      Steve Allison
                      Knoxville, TN
                    • Ron McCann
                      Mike, You took issue with the following, which I wrote in my post. ... You said:- ... You are absolutely right about Thomas not being responsible for any
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 11, 2001
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                        Mike,

                        You took issue with the following, which I wrote in my post.

                        > > In Thomas the saying has been softened and neutered. In Luke, the
                        > > only other Gospel in which this saying or it's parallel is found,
                        > > it has not been and can be read "suggestively".

                        You said:-
                        > As Peter Kirby notes, there's no apparent "softening" or "neutering"
                        > in the Thomas saying. The word in question was usually used to mean
                        > 'bed', and so someone who was unfamiliar with the Grecian style of
                        > dining might conclude (as the Carpocratians did?) that Salome was
                        > saying that Jesus had both slept and ate with her.

                        You are absolutely right about Thomas not being responsible for any
                        "softening" by employing the term "couch" over "bed" in 61. See my post of
                        to-day's date to Peter Kirby. I should have examined all the alternative
                        translations available. Any such 'softening" is a result of a modern
                        translator's choice of "couch" over "bed".

                        But, not, I hope, to split hairs- "neutering" seems clearly to have been
                        done with the elimination of the word "Men", after "Two". No? "Two Men will
                        sleep/ lay down in/on a bed". Remove it, and no homosexual implications can
                        be drawn from it (not that it's that easy to do in the first place.).

                        And as you say, one really has to reach to see any lacivious meaning in 61b.
                        Your point about the Carpos having to ignore parts of the saying to do so,
                        is well taken. You had written:-

                        <But even then,
                        > it must have seemed extremely odd for a woman who had slept with a
                        > man to suddenly ask later, "Say, who are you, anyway?" (Well, not
                        > counting wives, who occasionally imply something of the sort when
                        > their husbands have acted in typically stupid manly fashion :-)

                        On the other hand, doesn't this scenario re-enact itself tens of thousands
                        of times a night when the bars close? :-)

                        Might I also be permitted a comment on something else you wrote? You state:-
                        >
                        > > Unfortunately, the resolution of the discordance isn't at all
                        > convincing, since it's unlikely in the extreme that Salome (or
                        > anyone else in their right mind) would have keeled right over and
                        > become J's disciple simply on the basis of something he might say.
                        > In that respect, the whole story sounds as fishy as the "calling"
                        > of the sons of Zebedee, who drop everything they're doing when J
                        > says "Follow me!". The historical core, if there was one, must
                        > certainly have been quite different.

                        Fair enough, but the fact that Salome "keels over" in the exact same
                        fashion, and with exactly the same swiftness as the Zebedees, or the Tax
                        Collector Levi or some of the others, on encountering Jesus for the first
                        time, may either be an literary device- just the way they wrote of those
                        kinds of experiences in those days- or it may be a response to the sheer
                        impact the man- reputely of enormous personal charisma- had on the people he
                        met. Either way, identifying this saying as the Calling of Salome, is
                        reinforced.

                        I might also cite to you, in addition, a proven human emotional response
                        reaction called "love at first sight". Some similar mechanism may be
                        involved here. In that vein, might I direct you to the raising of Lazarus
                        incident in Secret Mark, where immediately after raising Lazarus, Lazarus
                        instantly falls "in love" with Jesus.

                        Not all that "fishy", really. :-)

                        Ron
                      • Jack Kilmon
                        ... From: Ron McCann To: Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 2:18 AM Subject: Re: [GTh] Re: Salome: A Modest
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 11, 2001
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                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Ron McCann" <ronmccann1@...>
                          To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 2:18 AM
                          Subject: Re: [GTh] Re: Salome: A Modest Proposal :#61


                          >
                          > Fair enough, but the fact that Salome "keels over" in the exact same
                          > fashion, and with exactly the same swiftness as the Zebedees, or the Tax
                          > Collector Levi or some of the others, on encountering Jesus for the first
                          > time, may either be an literary device- just the way they wrote of those
                          > kinds of experiences in those days- or it may be a response to the sheer
                          > impact the man- reputely of enormous personal charisma- had on the people
                          he
                          > met. Either way, identifying this saying as the Calling of Salome, is
                          > reinforced.

                          Were they really encountering Jesus for the first time, Ron, or is that the
                          literary device? Salome is Jesus' aunt, therefore the Zebediya boys,
                          Yohanon (John) and Ya'akov (James, the "greater") are Jesus' cousins.
                          Jesus' uncle Zebediya is in a partnership with Yona in a fishing business
                          and Yona's two sons, Simon and Andreas are close to and work with
                          Jesus' cousins. Jesus' uncle Clopas/Cleophas/Alphaeus is his father
                          Yosef's brother, married to "the other Mary" and have two sons,
                          Mattaya (Matthew) and Ya'akov (James, the "lesser") who are also
                          cousins. Thaddeus was a cousin. Was Yehudah "Toma" the same
                          person as brother "Jude?"
                          It appears very much to me that Jesus' knew all these
                          people he called to "follow me" all his life. Did brother Ya'akov
                          (James, the Righteous) just "pop up" after the crucifixion or was he an
                          element in this enterprise all along? It seems that the "Son of Man and
                          Kingdom Coming, Incorporated" was a family enterprise.
                          Perhaps Logion 12 is a relic of the GoT origins in the earliest (family)
                          tradition.

                          Jack


                          -----
                          ______________________________________________

                          Dakma dabadton l'chad min haleyn achi zoreh li hav abadton

                          Jack Kilmon
                          San Marcos, Tx
                          jkilmon@...

                          http://www.historian.net

                          sharing a meal for free.
                          http://www.thehungersite.com/
                        • Jack Kilmon
                          ... From: Ron McCann To: Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] Fw: [GospelofThomas] Re:
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 11, 2001
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Ron McCann" <ronmccann1@...>
                            To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 7:11 PM
                            Subject: Re: [GTh] Fw: [GospelofThomas] Re: Salome: A Modest Proposal :#61


                            > On Aug 17th, Jack wrote-
                            >
                            > > Ron, you seem to be equating the Salome (Shelomzion, the feminine form
                            of
                            > > Solomon), daughter of Herodias, with Salome, the mother of the brothers
                            > > Zebediya. Although the prosopography of the relatives and family of
                            Jesus
                            > > must be extracted from multiple canonical and non-canonical sources, the
                            > > Salome who was a follower (and supporter) of Jesus..and present at the
                            > > crucifixion...appears to have been his aunt, Mary's sister. Josephus'
                            > "off
                            > > with his head" Salome, and daughter of Herodias (and Herod Philip)...was
                            > > probably named after Salome Alexandra, the widow of Alexander Jannaeus
                            and
                            > > last Hasmonean ruler>
                            >
                            > Jack,
                            >
                            > No such equating was intended. Rather I was intending to suggest that the
                            > disciple Salome had nothing to do with the dancer Salome, (Herodias's
                            > daughter who danced for Herod); and that only one Salome- the disciple-
                            is
                            > mentioned in the Gospels.- the other Salome- the dancer- remaining unnamed
                            > there. Almost anyone will tell you that a woman named Salome was the woman
                            > who danced for Herod. I was curious as to how that belief had come about.
                            > Sorry if my words mislead you on that point.

                            Aaah, I see. I misunderstood. Perhaps when Antipas was exiled to the west,
                            and Herodias went with him, step-daughter Salome tagged along. It may be
                            that
                            the hagiographers, writing some 30 years after Herod's exile just didn't
                            know
                            her name. After all, none of them appear to be from Palestine. Josephus
                            was, hence
                            he remembered her name.

                            >
                            > You know, after I posted that. I got to thinking about Salome being
                            > mentioned in the very last chapter of Mark, with all three of the women
                            > fleeing in fear. It abruptly ends, and as many have observed that there
                            has
                            > to have been more, but the proper ending is missing. Quite clearly, this
                            > ending was missing in Matthew and Luke's copies, too. Hard to imagine it
                            was
                            > "lost" such that it could not be recovered, in just 10 years.
                            >
                            > In keeping with my thesis, do you suppose the original ending may have
                            been
                            > deliberately amputated because it contained the risen Jesus interacting
                            with
                            > the later-disgraced Salome in some too familiar way, as had presumably
                            been
                            > done in the case of the Jericho incident? Or did the Secret Mark ending
                            > perhaps contain "secret resurrection teachings" which had to be excised,
                            as
                            > the Lazarus Initiation story was, leaving a truncated Normal Mark. Secret
                            > teachings were clearly not an issue in the Jericho, incident if you buy
                            what
                            > Clement said was written there. Salome's relationship with Jesus was.
                            > Perhaps the original ending has the risen Jesus giving Salome "secret
                            > resurrection teachings". Now wouldn't that "fry your bacon" if you are
                            > trying to discredit her?

                            First, I do not think aunt Salome was "later-disgraced." I believe, as the
                            wife
                            of the half owner of a lucrative fishing business, she, along with Joanna
                            and
                            Susanna helped support the small band "from her means." "Lying on my couch"
                            is an Aramaic idiom for coming to dinner..which is the only time you laid on
                            a couch in those days.

                            >
                            > I guess my point is that the true ending of Mark may have been
                            deliberately
                            > deleted for either or both of these reasons, rather than "accidentally"
                            > lost. And such editing would have to have taken place between the writing
                            of
                            > the Secret Gospel and 80 CE when Matthew first got his hands on the
                            reworked
                            > copy.

                            Actually, I think the ending of Mark is preserved in Matthew who copied
                            and redacted Mark nearly in its entirety. Although the Gospel of Mark
                            that Matthew and Luke used was probably not the currect version, the
                            ending can be extracted from Matthew and put back in Markan style
                            like:

                            Mark 16:9 And Jesus met them and said, Good Morning! (Mt 28:9)
                            10 And they went up to him and clasped his feet, and bowed to the ground
                            before him (Mt. 28:9) 11 Jesus said to them, you need not be afraid. (Mt
                            28:10)
                            12 Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee and they will see me there (Mt
                            28:10)
                            13 And they went with great joy and ran to tell his disciples (Mt 28:8)
                            14 And the elevel disciples went to Galilee to the mountain to which Jesus
                            had
                            directed them (Mt 28:16) 15 And Jesus came up to them and said, Go
                            and preach the good news to all the heathen. I will always be with you,
                            to the end. (Mt 28:19)

                            Since Mark fell into a period of disuse in favor of Matthew and Matthew
                            covered Mark's bases, it was not considered worthwhile to preserve or
                            replace the missing page of the Markan codex....after all, Matthew said it.

                            That's one theory. Another worth considering is that sometime during the
                            Pauline/Petrine polemics, the final portion of Mark was "lifted" and
                            inserted
                            at the end of John as Chapter 21 in order to neutralize the anti-petrine
                            John with a pro-Petrine ending of Mark. The three times "do ya love me?"
                            in John 21 brackets the three times "I don't know the guy" at Mark 14....
                            and Mark was a bracketer, wasn't he?

                            >
                            > Just a stray thought. And I have another one. Another idea worth
                            exploring,
                            > is the
                            > alternative possibility that Salome may have had to be discredited because
                            > she "defected" to the Thomas camp, and became their darling. Ergo- they
                            > record her "Call" in the Gospel of Thomas.

                            Not if the "Thomas camp" was the original "family camp."

                            Jack


                            -----
                            ______________________________________________

                            Dakma dabadton l'chad min haleyn achi zoreh li hav abadton

                            Jack Kilmon
                            San Marcos, Tx
                            jkilmon@...

                            http://www.historian.net

                            sharing a meal for free.
                            http://www.thehungersite.com/
                          • Ron McCann
                            Jack wrote:- ... From: Jack Kilmon To: Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 4:14 AM Subject: Re: [GTh] Re:
                            Message 13 of 20 , Aug 11, 2001
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                              Jack wrote:-
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@...>
                              To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 4:14 AM
                              Subject: Re: [GTh] Re: Salome: A Modest Proposal :#61


                              > Were they really encountering Jesus for the first time, Ron, or is that
                              the
                              > literary device? Salome is Jesus' aunt, therefore the Zebediya boys,
                              > Yohanon (John) and Ya'akov (James, the "greater") are Jesus' cousins.
                              > Jesus' uncle Zebediya is in a partnership with Yona in a fishing business
                              > and Yona's two sons, Simon and Andreas are close to and work with
                              > Jesus' cousins. Jesus' uncle Clopas/Cleophas/Alphaeus is his father
                              > Yosef's brother, married to "the other Mary" and have two sons,
                              > Mattaya (Matthew) and Ya'akov (James, the "lesser") who are also
                              > cousins. Thaddeus was a cousin. Was Yehudah "Toma" the same
                              > person as brother "Jude?"
                              > It appears very much to me that Jesus' knew all these
                              > people he called to "follow me" all his life. Did brother Ya'akov
                              > (James, the Righteous) just "pop up" after the crucifixion or was he an
                              > element in this enterprise all along? It seems that the "Son of Man and
                              > Kingdom Coming, Incorporated" was a family enterprise.
                              > Perhaps Logion 12 is a relic of the GoT origins in the earliest (family)
                              > tradition.
                              >
                              Jack,
                              I am very much aware of your "Family"-cabal thesis, and frankly think it has
                              a great deal of merit. I am greatly inclined to accept it.

                              But nothing in your Thesis stands or falls on whether or not the disciple of
                              Jesus called Salome is the same person as the Mother of the Zebedees-James
                              and John, or is even a relative.

                              I don't think she is, and it doesn't matter to your thesis anyway. The
                              mother could have been called Hagitha, or Fred for all I know, but "Salome"?
                              I think not. Expelling the Mother of James and John from the "camp" is
                              almost unthinkable (although she does seem a tad pushy when she presses
                              Jesus to give her boys 'first place" in the Kingdom.).

                              I do not know what pillars you rest your conclusion on, that this disciple
                              Salome is really Jesus's Aunt Zebedee. I hope one is not Matthew 27:55. I
                              must still insist that a deletion of the name "Salome" took place here, and
                              that Matthew merely substituted:-

                              "and the mother of the sons of Zebedee"

                              in it's place. Note that the full passage reads:-

                              "Among them were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph,
                              and the mother of the sons of Zebedee"

                              In Mark this reads:-

                              "among them were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger
                              and of Joses, and Salome,"

                              Knee-jerk logic- "Oh, why then Salome=Mother of the sons of Zebedee!" Hello
                              Auntie Salome!

                              But think. If the formula is to name the mother and name her children if a
                              woman is married with family, why does not Matthew write "and SALOME, the
                              mother of the sons of Zebedee." Just as he and Mark have done for Mary? He
                              had the name right there, before him.

                              No Jack, this is a complete substitution. Another more congenial candidate
                              has been dropped in the empty slot. At least Luke didn't go so far as to
                              "mother" it. He substitutes another single woman, Joanna.

                              This Salome is single, by formula, and she is not "Auntie Salome", Jimmy and
                              Johnnie's mummy.

                              But wait ( K-Tel commercial music), there's MORE!

                              Off we go, this time to the fragmentary remains of the Gospel of the
                              Egyptians (With thanks to Peter Kirby) by way of our cheerful,
                              sometimes-liar Clement. Here, we find the ONLY OTHER references to Salome,
                              apart from Thomas and the brief references in Mark. (There is a brief
                              reference as well in the highly gnostic First Apocalyse of James, where she
                              seems to be a chum of Lazarus's sisters, Mary and Martha.). Here, Clement,
                              arguing against incontinence (abstention from sexual acvtivity) quotes from
                              that Gospel.

                              "... Salome saith: "Until when shall men continue to die?" ... the Lord
                              makes answer: "So long as women bear children."
                              And why do they not ... go on to quote the rest of that which was said
                              to Salome? For when she had said, "I have done well, then in not bearing
                              children? ... the Lord answers and says: "Every plant eat thou, but that
                              which has bitterness, eat not." "

                              The point here is that Salome here declares herself as childless.

                              Now, Jack?
                              Can I take the trick, Now? :-)

                              Ron
                            • digitalis_pu@yahoo.no
                              ... he literary device? Salome is Jesus aunt, therefore the Zebediya boys, Yohanon (John) and Ya akov (James, the greater ) are Jesus cousins.The
                              Message 14 of 20 , Aug 12, 2001
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                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From:  "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@h...>
                                Date:  Sat Aug 11, 2001  10:14 am
                                Subject:  Re: [GTh] Re: Salome: A Modest Proposal :#61


                                If I may be allowed to participate in this scholarly discussion, I
                                would like to vent some viewpoints that may be relevant to the
                                discussion in connection with #61.

                                >Were they really encountering Jesus for the first time, Ron, or is >that t=
                                he
                                >literary device? Salome is Jesus' aunt, therefore the Zebediya boys,
                                >Yohanon (John) and Ya'akov (James, the "greater") are Jesus' cousins.

                                The "family business" picture may provide one reason why Jesus'
                                background has been downplayed in the scriptures, but there are more:
                                For one, in Matt 11,23-24, he condemns Capernaum, his very "home
                                base". But I think saying #61 can also be considered in another
                                perspective: Joseph Schreiber's (1956) hypothesis that Jesus was son
                                of Antipater, Herod the Great's oldest son. If we assume this
                                hypothesis, Mattaya's presentation (Matt 1-2) may be essentially
                                correct, with "EK PNEUMATOS AGIOU" (end 1,18) and "GENNETHEN EK
                                PNEUMATOS" (1,20) as later additions. Jesus' physical heritage may not
                                have been commonly known at the time, but aunt Salome would probably
                                know. When Jesus declares his "spiritual" heritage to her, he at the
                                same time implicitly denounces the political Messian expectations
                                running so high in many groups at that time. As Ron points out, "Salome" ma=
                                y have been someone else, but this interpretation would point to the Zebediy=
                                a's wife.

                                So when Salome declares herself disciple after this "clarification" by
                                Jesus, it fits well with "secret" Mark's mention of her in connection
                                with the initiation ceremony. She, "Lazarus" and Thomas seem to have
                                belonged to one group of "initiation-oriented" followers of
                                Jesus. Thomas when they are told about Lazarus: "Let's also go, that
                                we may die with him." (John 11,16). As those adepts seem to be the
                                people whom Jesus "love" "ON EGAPA O IESOUS" (e.g. John 21,20), Thomas
                                is probably the best candidate for this disciple. Salome acts as an
                                advocate for her sons (Matt 20,20-23), but nothing is granted, and
                                John is corrected by Jesus (Mark 9,38-40), or even rebuked (Luk
                                9,54-55). Like Peter, John seems to be no "early bloomer" in his
                                understanding of the Christ.

                                That would also give perfect meaning to the otherwise seemingly
                                meaningless John 24 (If John is the beloved, he testifies about
                                himself), with Mattaya and Yehudah "Toma" the two scribes among the
                                twelve, possibly founding two different, and to some extent
                                independent, written traditions.

                                Who is the disciple who knows the high priest and enters the court
                                with Jesus, thereafter getting Peter in? (John 18,15) I would guess
                                Thomas: "The beloved" and Peter are together on other occasions, at
                                the grave (John 20,2-4) and at the "Sea of Tiberias" (John 21,20). His
                                connections with the inner circles of jewish religous power may also
                                explain why he is made very anonymous in Matt, the Aramaic precursor
                                of which seems to have been a contemporary document. (Talmudic story
                                of rabbi Gamaliel II, grandson of biblical Gamaliel, bribing a
                                "christian-oriented" judge, and referring to the Aramaic version of
                                Matt 5,17 AD 70-72.) - Connections they agreed not to talk about.

                                Trond
                              • Mark Goodacre
                                A couple of comments on an interesting thread: (1) There was a discussion on this list back in 1999 on the translation of 6LO6 in Thom. 61 and KLINH in Luke,
                                Message 15 of 20 , Aug 13, 2001
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                                  A couple of comments on an interesting thread:

                                  (1) There was a discussion on this list back in 1999 on the
                                  translation of 6LO6 in Thom. 61 and KLINH in Luke, Mike, me,
                                  Sytze, Paterson Brown and Steve Patterson. I've looked in the
                                  archives and see that there is some useful material; you might
                                  begin here:

                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gthomas/messagesearch/2178?query=klinh

                                  (2) Luke 17.34 does not specify two "men" in a bed but DUO EPI
                                  KLINHS MIAS, two upon one bed.

                                  (3) On the identification of Salome with the mother of the sons of
                                  Zebedee (Jack), one argument against might be the Dura-Europos
                                  Gospel Harmony Fragment from the late 2nd Century, which
                                  begins [ZEBED]AIOU KAI SALWMH ([of Zebed]ee and Salome). It
                                  looks like this earliest extent gospel harmony fragment thus did not
                                  identify or harmonize the characters Mother of the sons of Zebedee
                                  from Matthew and Salome from Mark.

                                  Mark


                                  --------------------------------------
                                  Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                                  Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                                  University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
                                  Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom

                                  http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
                                  Homepage
                                  http://www.ntgateway.com
                                  The New Testament Gateway
                                • Ron McCann
                                  On August 13th, Mark wrote:- ... Thank you Mark for pointing this out. Once again I have been hoist on a translator s petard (although I used it on myself). Of
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Aug 13, 2001
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                                    On August 13th, Mark wrote:-

                                    > A couple of comments on an interesting thread:
                                    > (2) Luke 17.34 does not specify two "men" in a bed but DUO EPI
                                    > KLINHS MIAS, two upon one bed.

                                    Thank you Mark for pointing this out. Once again I have been hoist on a
                                    translator's petard (although I used it on myself). Of 11 translations I
                                    have just looked at, 4 insert "Men", 2 go only with "Two" and the remaining
                                    5 inserted the word " People". Only Darby's translation square brackets
                                    "men". Who was to know? Angels fear to tread, and all that.

                                    This leaves me no choice but to completely rescind my earlier suggestion
                                    that Thomas "neutered" the 61a saying by deleting "men" and just leaving
                                    "Two." Game, set and match, Mike. The two sayings are probably only grouped
                                    because of the "catchword" "couch" or "bed".

                                    You also wrote:->

                                    > (3) On the identification of Salome with the mother of the sons of
                                    > Zebedee (Jack), one argument against might be the Dura-Europos
                                    > Gospel Harmony Fragment from the late 2nd Century, which
                                    > begins [ZEBED]AIOU KAI SALWMH ([of Zebed]ee and Salome). It
                                    > looks like this earliest extent gospel harmony fragment thus did not
                                    > identify or harmonize the characters Mother of the sons of Zebedee
                                    > from Matthew and Salome from Mark.

                                    Thanks for this. I think it adds some weight in the argument.

                                    Ron
                                  • Michael Grondin
                                    ... Ron shouldn t feel too bad about being misled. The generally-accepted standards of translation are just too low, IMO. I notice also that at 17:35 most
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Aug 13, 2001
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                                      Mark Goodacre wrote:
                                      > Luke 17.34 does not specify two "men" in a bed but DUO EPI
                                      > KLINHS MIAS, two upon one bed.

                                      Ron shouldn't feel too bad about being misled. The generally-accepted
                                      standards of translation are just too low, IMO. I notice also that at 17:35
                                      most translations have 'two women' (grinding together, or some such), but
                                      again only the neutral word 'DUO' appears in the Greek. I never thought of
                                      it before, but translators of the canon are apparently traditionally much
                                      less careful than Robinson's group of NHLe translators, who were supposed
                                      to have adhered to a system of special symbols, among which was the use of
                                      parentheses to indicate "material supplied by the editor or translator".
                                      Even so, however, Lambdin's version of Th62 in NHLe, for example, has 'left
                                      hand' and 'right hand', instead of 'left (hand)' and 'right (hand)' (or,
                                      better yet, simply 'left' and 'right'). I guess translators feel free to do
                                      a little creative extrapolation of their own! Sure, one should always
                                      consult the original language, but if standards of translation weren't so
                                      loose, there'd be less chance of being misled by the English.
                                      Discouragingly (from my point of view), Bob Funk argues _against_ stricter
                                      standards in "Honest to Jesus"; one can see the results of such a policy in
                                      "The Scholars Version" of Thomas and the canonicals, which could be safely
                                      ignored were it not for the fact that that translation is used in some
                                      pretty important texts from the Jesus Seminar (viz., "The Five Gospels" and
                                      "The Acts of Jesus".)

                                      Mike
                                    • fmmccoy
                                      ... From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 4:12 AM Subject: [GTh] Salome ... Klaus Schilling: Nothing
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Sep 18, 2002
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                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: <pessy@...>
                                        To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 4:12 AM
                                        Subject: [GTh] Salome


                                        > Anything excluding Thomas' Salome from being one of the Maccabian
                                        > princesses?


                                        Klaus Schilling:

                                        Nothing excludes this possibility.

                                        However, my own suspicion is that neither the Herodians (who replaced the
                                        Maccabeans (Hasmoneans) as the royal dynasty in Palestine) nor the Romans
                                        (who liked the pro-Roman Herodians) would have permitted the Maccabean
                                        (Hasmonean) line to survive.until c. 30 CE--with the possible exception of
                                        those who inter-married with the Herodians.

                                        In any event, since the Maccabees (Hasmoneans) had been replaced by the
                                        Herodians, any Maccabean (Hasmonean) princesses living c. 30 CE were out of
                                        the limelight and, so (at least as far as I am aware), are not mentioned by
                                        Josephus. So, even if any such princesses were living c. 30 CE, we haven't
                                        a clue as to their names.

                                        So, while it is possible that Salome was one of the Maccabean (Hasmonean)
                                        princesses, I think it unlikely.

                                        Salome was a popular name among the Herodians. Herod the Great had a sister
                                        named Salome (both are offspring of Antipas and Cypros), a daughter named
                                        Salome (whose mother was Elpis), and a grand-daughter named Salome (whose
                                        parents were Herod (Philip) and Herodias). The grand-daughter is mentioned,
                                        but not named, in the New Testament: she being the daughter of Herodias and
                                        step-daughter of Herod Antipas whose dance allegedly led to the beheading of
                                        John the Baptist.

                                        I am not aware of any evidence linking any of these Herodian Salomes to the
                                        Salome in GTh 61.

                                        Still, the popularity of the name among the Herodians is an indication that
                                        Salome was a favorite name among the upper crust: which increases the
                                        probability that the Salome of GTh 61 belonged to the upper class.

                                        Frank McCoy
                                        1809 N. English Apt. 17
                                        Maplewood, MN USA 55109
                                      • Grondin
                                        ... Yes - the internal logic of the saying. ... Alexander ... be ... The successful candidate for the Salome of #61 will have to have more than a remote
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Sep 18, 2002
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                                          [Klaus Schilling]:
                                          > Anything excluding Thomas' Salome from being one of the Maccabian
                                          > princesses?<<

                                          Yes - the internal logic of the saying.

                                          [Dave Hindley]:
                                          > Ahhh, yes! I too was thinking of queen Shalom Zion (ca. 78-69 BCE).
                                          > There is a connection, at least in Jewish tradition, between Jesus and
                                          > Shalome Zion (in the Toledoth Jeschu literature) and her husband,
                                          Alexander
                                          > Janneus (ca. 104-78, the connection being that Jesus' teacher is said to
                                          be
                                          > a figure who was also said to have been critical of Janneus but escaped
                                          > judgement because he was related to the queen).

                                          The successful candidate for the Salome of #61 will have to have more than a
                                          remote relationship to Jesus. She will also have to satisfy the internal
                                          logic of the saying. That is, this must be a literal or metaphorical woman
                                          in whose mouth the words "You have mounted my couch and eaten from my table"
                                          make sense. It must also make sense for her to proclaim herself to be a
                                          disciple of Jesus. In the absence of detailed argumentation relevant to the
                                          internal logic of 61, neither Salome Alexandra nor Salome of the Herodians
                                          appears to fit that bill.

                                          Regards,
                                          Mike Grondin
                                        • Grondin
                                          ... Sorry, Klaus, I obviously misunderstood the question - most probably because I ve read nothing at all about the continued existence of the
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Sep 18, 2002
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                                            [Klaus Schilling]:
                                            > Anything excluding Thomas' Salome from being one of the Maccabian
                                            > princesses?

                                            Sorry, Klaus, I obviously misunderstood the question - most probably because
                                            I've read nothing at all about the continued existence of the
                                            Maccabees/Hasmonians after Herod came to power (ca 37-40 BCE) and sometime
                                            later had his Hasmonean wife (Mariamne I), her sons, and other prominent
                                            members of the family executed. It seems unlikely, as Frank observes, that
                                            there would have been any "princesses" left, though I suppose distant
                                            relatives might still have considered themselves successors to the throne
                                            for some period of time. What can you tell us about this subject?

                                            Regards,
                                            Mike Grondin
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