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RE: [GTh] who made me a divider? #72

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  • Rick Hubbard
    [Jim Wrote:] ... separated by about 10 do not seem to reflect this pattern.
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 25, 2001
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      [Jim Wrote:]

      >> #50 is an "image" verse<<

      >>#82 and #83 are also image sayings but the following passages
      separated by about 10 do not seem to reflect this pattern.<<

      Three questions, Jim:

      FIRST, what, exactly, is an "image verse" and how do you define
      its characteristics?

      SECOND, what is the "pattern" to which you refer?

      THIRD, assuming that Logia 82 and 83 are what you claim them to
      be, does this mean that the ten sayings subsequent to 82 & 83
      should be expected to exhibit the same characteristics as 82 and
      83? Or do you mean that "about ten" logia intervene between the
      "image verses" (82 & 83) and the next "image verse" (which
      presumably would be 92 and/or 93)?????

      Sounds a bit strained to me.

      Rick
    • Jim Bauer
      ... From: Rick Hubbard To: Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 9:04 AM Subject: RE: [GTh] who made me a divider?
      Message 2 of 4 , Jul 25, 2001
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Rick Hubbard" <rhubbard@...>
        To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 9:04 AM
        Subject: RE: [GTh] who made me a divider? #72


        > [Jim Wrote:]
        >
        > >> #50 is an "image" verse<<
        >
        > >>#82 and #83 are also image sayings but the following passages
        > separated by about 10 do not seem to reflect this pattern.<<
        >
        > Three questions, Jim:
        >
        > FIRST, what, exactly, is an "image verse" and how do you define
        > its characteristics?

        There's a very good page about this which I bookmarked long ago from _The
        Gospel of Thomas and Christian Wisdom_ by Stevan L. Davies, Seabury Press:
        New York, 1983

        The URL where I found this is:

        http://www.miseri.edu/users/davies/thomas/four.htm

        Davies goes on to quote what Wolfson says of
        Philo:

        "His conception of the Logos, and of the ideas which are contained in the
        Logos, as created by God has led Philo to revise the meaning of the Platonic
        term image *(eikon).* In Plato the term image is used exclusively with
        reference to things in the visible world; ideas are not images they are
        patterns *(paradeigmata).* In Philo, indeed, the term image is still applied
        to things in the visible world, and ideas as well as the Logos are still
        described by the term pattern as well as by the term archetype
        *(archetypos),* but, unlike Plato, Philo describes the ideas as well as the
        Logos also by the term image. [H. A. Wolfson, *Philo* (Cambridge: Harvard
        University Press, 1947), p. 238.] "
        >
        > SECOND, what is the "pattern" to which you refer?

        I'm not sure there is one. It's merely that when I started finding this
        stuff I noticed that for about 2/3 of the sayings there is a repetition of
        theme; from a list of dualities which also mentions "images" but if you read
        my original note I in fact stated that I think the analogy breaks down for
        the final couple of sayings.
        >
        > THIRD, do you mean that "about ten" logia intervene between the
        > "image verses" (82 & 83) and the next "image verse" (which
        > presumably would be 92 and/or 93)?????
        >
        Yes, but it's the prior verses, not the next one.

        > Sounds a bit strained to me.

        Me too. I'd rather discuss what I started out to: what the concept of the
        "divider" means.
        >
        Jim
        >
        >
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      • Rick Hubbard
        Jim, Thanks for clarifying the image verse reference and for more clearly stating your interest in un-packing the meaning of GTh 72. I confess that at
        Message 3 of 4 , Jul 27, 2001
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          Jim,

          Thanks for clarifying the "image verse" reference and for more
          clearly stating your interest in un-packing the "meaning" of GTh
          72.

          I confess that at first I was a little skeptical about your
          suggested connection between Logia 72 and 22. I remain
          unpersuaded about *some* of what you say, BUT your remarks did
          make me read both of those texts more carefully than I have
          previously.

          There is much that can be said about GTh 72 (but I'll spare you,
          for now, from most of it). Instead I'll just mention that the
          structure and content of this pericope is intriguing. It is
          packed with ambiguity, it *may* be engaging in word play, and it
          seems to exhibit some evidence of editorial tampering (exactly of
          the sort that Bill Arnal's article suggests). It appears to me
          also that its "unity" or "integrity" as a saying needs to be more
          carefully examined. Finally, there does indeed seem to be a
          juxtaposition of opposites at work between it and saying 22. I've
          written waaaayyyy to much about this and so I need to distill it
          to a page or two before I post it for review and comment on the
          list. I just did not want you to think I was ignoring your
          previous note.

          Rick Hubbard
          Humble Maine Woodsman
          Where
          6 months of snow,
          4 months of Black Flies,
          2 months of "Mud Season"
          are nature's way of keeping Tourists from becoming Residents!
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