RE: [GTh] who made me a divider? #72
- [Jim Wrote:]
>> #50 is an "image" verse<<separated by about 10 do not seem to reflect this pattern.<<
>>#82 and #83 are also image sayings but the following passages
Three questions, Jim:
FIRST, what, exactly, is an "image verse" and how do you define
SECOND, what is the "pattern" to which you refer?
THIRD, assuming that Logia 82 and 83 are what you claim them to
be, does this mean that the ten sayings subsequent to 82 & 83
should be expected to exhibit the same characteristics as 82 and
83? Or do you mean that "about ten" logia intervene between the
"image verses" (82 & 83) and the next "image verse" (which
presumably would be 92 and/or 93)?????
Sounds a bit strained to me.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Hubbard" <rhubbard@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 9:04 AM
Subject: RE: [GTh] who made me a divider? #72
> [Jim Wrote:]
> >> #50 is an "image" verse<<
> >>#82 and #83 are also image sayings but the following passages
> separated by about 10 do not seem to reflect this pattern.<<
> Three questions, Jim:
> FIRST, what, exactly, is an "image verse" and how do you define
> its characteristics?
There's a very good page about this which I bookmarked long ago from _The
Gospel of Thomas and Christian Wisdom_ by Stevan L. Davies, Seabury Press:
New York, 1983
The URL where I found this is:
Davies goes on to quote what Wolfson says of
"His conception of the Logos, and of the ideas which are contained in the
Logos, as created by God has led Philo to revise the meaning of the Platonic
term image *(eikon).* In Plato the term image is used exclusively with
reference to things in the visible world; ideas are not images they are
patterns *(paradeigmata).* In Philo, indeed, the term image is still applied
to things in the visible world, and ideas as well as the Logos are still
described by the term pattern as well as by the term archetype
*(archetypos),* but, unlike Plato, Philo describes the ideas as well as the
Logos also by the term image. [H. A. Wolfson, *Philo* (Cambridge: Harvard
University Press, 1947), p. 238.] "
> SECOND, what is the "pattern" to which you refer?
I'm not sure there is one. It's merely that when I started finding this
stuff I noticed that for about 2/3 of the sayings there is a repetition of
theme; from a list of dualities which also mentions "images" but if you read
my original note I in fact stated that I think the analogy breaks down for
the final couple of sayings.
> THIRD, do you mean that "about ten" logia intervene between the
> "image verses" (82 & 83) and the next "image verse" (which
> presumably would be 92 and/or 93)?????
Yes, but it's the prior verses, not the next one.
> Sounds a bit strained to me.
Me too. I'd rather discuss what I started out to: what the concept of the
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Thanks for clarifying the "image verse" reference and for more
clearly stating your interest in un-packing the "meaning" of GTh
I confess that at first I was a little skeptical about your
suggested connection between Logia 72 and 22. I remain
unpersuaded about *some* of what you say, BUT your remarks did
make me read both of those texts more carefully than I have
There is much that can be said about GTh 72 (but I'll spare you,
for now, from most of it). Instead I'll just mention that the
structure and content of this pericope is intriguing. It is
packed with ambiguity, it *may* be engaging in word play, and it
seems to exhibit some evidence of editorial tampering (exactly of
the sort that Bill Arnal's article suggests). It appears to me
also that its "unity" or "integrity" as a saying needs to be more
carefully examined. Finally, there does indeed seem to be a
juxtaposition of opposites at work between it and saying 22. I've
written waaaayyyy to much about this and so I need to distill it
to a page or two before I post it for review and comment on the
list. I just did not want you to think I was ignoring your
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