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Re: [gthomas] #55

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  • Rick Hubbard
    ... By definition, scholarly historical investigation is a limited world. It limits its focus to what is demonstrable and sometimes to what it empirically
    Message 1 of 55 , Dec 31, 1969
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      > >
      > >A point that is a) not demonstrable (it's an assumption, and one lacking in
      > >any evidence),
      >
      > If you are going to limit your sphere of knowledge to the demonstrable, you
      > are going to live in a narrow world. While it may not be demonstrable that
      > Yeshu spoke Aramaic as his primary tongue, it nonetheless falls within the
      > much more likely than not category, and Greek falls within the much less
      > likely than not category.
      >

      By definition, scholarly historical investigation is a limited world.
      It limits its focus to what is demonstrable and sometimes to what it
      empirically verifiable. In virtually every case, inquiry within this
      "limited world" seeks to regard probabilities as footnotes, rather than
      defensible premises. At the point that one drags into the discussion
      one's own personal preferences and defends them by arguing for their
      probability, then one has stepped outside the circle of responsible
      scholarship.

      > > and b) kinda irrelevant (this list is about THOMAS, not the
      > >historical Jesus).
      >
      > Again, Bill, you seem to like to create blinders. You can't separate the
      > discussion of GOT from history.

      If I understand correctly the stated purpose of this list, it is
      precisely within its historical context that GThom is to be discussed.
      That leads me to believe that what goes on here is bound exclusively to
      the historical context of GThom, and that speculative hermeneutical
      exercises should be conductyed in other forums.
      >
      > > Jack's "all too obvious point", though, was not what I
      > >was taking issue with (although in another context, I would), but rather its
      > >relevance to Thomas?
      > >
      > > >And finally,
      > > >and first and foremost, we should try to make sense out of the Gospels. His
      > > >back translation makes the most sense.
      > >
      > >I don't at ALL understand this point.
      >
      > I understand how this might be difficult for you since you don't want to
      > consider the historical Jesus and GOT in the same mental session, and you
      > don't want to think about what type of teachings may have been taught by a
      > great moral teacher. But even that might be difficult for you since you do
      > not want your thought processes violated by considering the possibility
      > that a real person, and (possibly even Yeshu) may have uttered some of the
      > words in GOT. But if you can consider the possibility that a real person
      > may have uttered many of the teachings in GOT, and you believe there is
      > some moral worth in the teachings, then you might want to try out for size
      > back translations based on more than likely Aramaic hypotheses, since the
      > interpretations they yield are based upon greater moral sense than hating
      > your parents. "Setting aside" one's family is a traditional concept amongst
      > those who leave the world behind. But it is not based upon hate.
      >


      Good Grief!!

      Whether or not Bill wants to take up with the HJ and GThom at the same
      time, the fact remains that there is virtually no "historical Jesus"
      present in GThom (and if you want to debate THAT issue with me, you'd
      better pack your lunch because you'll find its going to be a VERY long
      day at school).

      Yes a real person is the source of the GThom logia. Who else, Teddy
      Ruxpin?

      I suspect that if take your own blinders off, and look at the "moral
      implications" inherent in GThom in its historical and socilogical
      contexts, you'll find them not particularly congenial. Certainly they
      will not be 100% compatible with the particular flavor of 20th century
      Christian thinking that you seem to insist on imposing on the text.


      Rick Hubbard
    • William Arnal
      ... In the Gospel of John, he did. What connection does this have to Thomas? Bill __________________________________ William Arnal wea1@is7.nyu.edu
      Message 55 of 55 , Jun 12, 2000
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        At 08:46 AM 6/12/00 EDT, Kanefer@... wrote:

        >Jesus physically demonstrated such a setting aside when his mother was
        >allocated to one of the disciples.

        In the Gospel of John, he did. What connection does this have to Thomas?

        Bill
        __________________________________
        William Arnal wea1@...
        Religion/Classics New York University

        Is there is an ursine proclivity for sylvan defecation?
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