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Re: [gthomas] Psyche & Pneuma in GoT

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  • Kanefer@aol.com
    Mike wrote: (25) Love your (sg) brother like your PSYCHE. (28) My PSYCHE ached over the sons of men. (87) Wretched is the body which depends on a body, and
    Message 1 of 3 , Jun 2, 2000
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      Mike wrote:

      (25) Love your (sg) brother like your PSYCHE.
      (28) My PSYCHE ached over the sons of men.
      (87) Wretched is the body which depends on a body,
      and wretched is the PSYCHE that depends on these two.
      (112) Woe to the flesh that depends on the PSYCHE;
      woe to the PSYCHE that depends on the flesh.
      ----------------------------------
      (14) If you give alms, you'll be doing evil to your PNEUMA's.
      (29) If flesh came into being because of PNEUMA, a wonder it is,
      but if PNEUMA because of the body, a wonder of wonders it is.
      (44) Whoever blasphemes against the PNEUMA-which-is-holy
      will not be forgiven, neither on earth nor in heaven.
      (53) The true circumcision in PNEUMA has become totally sufficient.
      (114) I will lead her [Mary] in order to make her male, so that she also
      might become a living PNEUMA, resembling you males.

      The question I pose to myself is this: aside from #44 (where the special
      term 'Holy Spirit' is used), what do the rest of these statements
      suggest (if anything) about the difference (if any) between 'psyche' and
      'pneuma' in the mind(s) of the author(s)?>>

      Wow, your outline here makes it very clear: "psyche" is more flesh, temporal
      and like "condition of mind," while "pneuma" is more spiritual or religious
      and = "spirit." Concept of self back then must have been so different, less
      even, with the Jewish identity being so defined by religion/spirituality.
      And also there was more the group rather than the individual.
      Even today, how much of what we call our "self" has in fact gained
      definition from the group? So that when we leave off from that group, there
      is identity crisis, a la #112

      Maybe, one could even say, those who abstained from the group (or "fasted
      from the world" as recommended in #27 etc) sort of pioneered the
      consciousness of self, in keeping with GoT #3, 26 and etc.

      Wish we could have these shown throughout the scriptures as well!

      Sincerely, Patti
    • Jim Bauer
      112 and 29 appear related in that in both cases an immaterial spirit is associated with a material body. Jim Bauer ... From: Michael Grondin
      Message 2 of 3 , Jun 2, 2000
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        112 and 29 appear related in that in both cases an immaterial spirit is
        associated with a material body.

        Jim Bauer
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Michael Grondin <grondinm@...>
        To: gthomas@egroups.com <gthomas@egroups.com>; gospelofthomas@egroups.com
        <gospelofthomas@egroups.com>
        Date: Friday, June 02, 2000 12:17 PM
        Subject: [gthomas] Psyche & Pneuma in GoT


        >(crosspost to GThomas and GospelofThomas lists)
        >
        >Following are selected portions of all the sayings in the GoT which use
        >the Greek words 'psyche' and 'pneuma':
        >
        >PSYCHE: 5 occurrences in 4 sayings (87 & 112 are a pair)
        >--------------------------------------------------------
        >(25) Love your (sg) brother like your PSYCHE.
        >(28) My PSYCHE ached over the sons of men.
        >(87) Wretched is the body which depends on a body,
        > and wretched is the PSYCHE that depends on these two.
        >(112) Woe to the flesh that depends on the PSYCHE;
        > woe to the PSYCHE that depends on the flesh.
        >
        >PNEUMA: 6 occurrences in 5 sayings
        >----------------------------------
        >(14) If you give alms, you'll be doing evil to your PNEUMA's.
        >(29) If flesh came into being because of PNEUMA, a wonder it is,
        > but if PNEUMA because of the body, a wonder of wonders it is.
        >(44) Whoever blasphemes against the PNEUMA-which-is-holy
        > will not be forgiven, neither on earth nor in heaven.
        >(53) The true circumcision in PNEUMA has become totally sufficient.
        >(114) I will lead her [Mary] in order to make her male, so that she
        >also might become a living PNEUMA, resembling you males.
        >
        >The question I pose to myself is this: aside from #44 (where the special
        >term 'Holy Spirit' is used), what do the rest of these statements
        >suggest (if anything) about the difference (if any) between 'psyche' and
        >'pneuma' in the mind(s) of the author(s)?
        >
        >Mike
        >
        >
        >
        >-------------------------------------------------
        >To post to gthomas, send email to gthomas@egroups.com
        >To unsubscribe, send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      • Rick Hubbard
        ... This is an intriguing question and one which I suspect is resistant to a simple answer. Beneath the question itself is the issue of the author s
        Message 3 of 3 , Jun 3, 2000
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          Michael Grondin wrote:
          >
          > (crosspost to GThomas and GospelofThomas lists)
          >
          > Following are selected portions of all the sayings in the GoT which use
          > the Greek words 'psyche' and 'pneuma':
          >
          > PSYCHE: 5 occurrences in 4 sayings (87 & 112 are a pair)
          > --------------------------------------------------------
          > (25) Love your (sg) brother like your PSYCHE.
          > (28) My PSYCHE ached over the sons of men.
          > (87) Wretched is the body which depends on a body,
          > and wretched is the PSYCHE that depends on these two.
          > (112) Woe to the flesh that depends on the PSYCHE;
          > woe to the PSYCHE that depends on the flesh.
          >
          > PNEUMA: 6 occurrences in 5 sayings
          > ----------------------------------
          > (14) If you give alms, you'll be doing evil to your PNEUMA's.
          > (29) If flesh came into being because of PNEUMA, a wonder it is,
          > but if PNEUMA because of the body, a wonder of wonders it is.
          > (44) Whoever blasphemes against the PNEUMA-which-is-holy
          > will not be forgiven, neither on earth nor in heaven.
          > (53) The true circumcision in PNEUMA has become totally sufficient.
          > (114) I will lead her [Mary] in order to make her male, so that she
          > also might become a living PNEUMA, resembling you males.
          >
          > The question I pose to myself is this: aside from #44 (where the special
          > term 'Holy Spirit' is used), what do the rest of these statements
          > suggest (if anything) about the difference (if any) between 'psyche' and
          > 'pneuma' in the mind(s) of the author(s)?

          This is an intriguing question and one which I suspect is resistant to a
          simple answer. Beneath the question itself is the issue of the author's
          anthropological presuppositions. In order to address this it is probably
          necessary to consider not only PNEUMA and PSYCHE and their relationship
          to one another, but also the ways in which are understood the equivalant
          Hellenistic categories of existence such as SOMA/SARX (body/flesh),
          NOUS, (mind) and ZOE (life). It would, moreover, be be interesting to
          compare the results of that inquiry with the ways in which these are
          understood elsewhere in the early Christian communities.

          This single question also prompts others. Among them is how GThom works
          out what Crossan calls the "dichotomy between a monism of a *necessarily
          enfleshed spirit* and a dualism of of an *accidently enfleshed spirit*."
          The former, as I understand it, is characteristic of Judean thinking
          wherein the body is animated by the soul which contrasts with the
          Hellenistic notion that the soul merely dwells in the body. It raises
          also the question of whether GThom perceives PNEUMA to be something
          transcendent or immanent. Ultimately I suppose the answers to Mike's
          question will emerge from the way in which the antecedant questions are
          addressed.

          Rick Hubbard
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