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[gthomas] Re: Where and When?

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  • Achilles37@aol.com
    ... I repeat, the traditions are fixed and in agreement that the Spirit entered Jesus at his baptism. You will note that the accounts say that the Spirit then
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 29, 2000
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      Tord writes:

      > Put yourself alone in the desert for thirty days
      > with nothing in your stomach and compare that
      > with having a few handfuls of river water tossed
      > on your head and you will get some idea about
      > where and when Jesus may have actually gotten
      > his first altered state of consciousness.

      I repeat, the traditions are fixed and in agreement
      that the Spirit entered Jesus at his baptism. You
      will note that the accounts say that the Spirit then
      drove Jesus out into the wilderness (for forty days).
      That is, he went out into the wilderness immediately
      after the Spirit took possession of him. The point was
      not when he first experienced altered consciousness,
      but when the Spirit first possessed him.

      It's not about a little water vs. prolonged fasting and
      sensory deprivation. It's merely about the fact that
      many traditions were in agreement that as Jesus
      came UP out of the water, the Spirit came DOWN
      upon him, usually in the form of a dove.

      - Kevin Johnson
    • Tord Svenson
      Scripture claims that Jesus cast demons into the bodies of living pigs and sent them running into a body of water to drown. How logical is that? Are we forced
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 29, 2000
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        Scripture claims that Jesus cast demons into the bodies of living pigs and
        sent them running into a body of water to drown. How logical is that? Are
        we forced to believe it? -- or can we use our common sense?

        If John baptized properly --by immersion --- and by holding the subject
        under the water until; he or she struggles to get free --then it might make
        sense. We don't know. If John forced those whom he baptized to confront
        death and then told them immediately -- "As much as you wanted that breath
        so must you want the Kingdom" then there may be something to the story.
        Apparently people can't be baptized in that way these days because of the
        liability insurance.
        Tord
        --------------------
        At 07:50 AM 1/29/00 EST, Achilles37@... wrote:
        >Tord writes:
        >
        >> Put yourself alone in the desert for thirty days
        >> with nothing in your stomach and compare that
        >> with having a few handfuls of river water tossed
        >> on your head and you will get some idea about
        >> where and when Jesus may have actually gotten
        >> his first altered state of consciousness.
        >
        >I repeat, the traditions are fixed and in agreement
        >that the Spirit entered Jesus at his baptism. You
        >will note that the accounts say that the Spirit then
        >drove Jesus out into the wilderness (for forty days).
        >That is, he went out into the wilderness immediately
        >after the Spirit took possession of him. The point was
        >not when he first experienced altered consciousness,
        >but when the Spirit first possessed him.
        >
        >It's not about a little water vs. prolonged fasting and
        >sensory deprivation. It's merely about the fact that
        >many traditions were in agreement that as Jesus
        >came UP out of the water, the Spirit came DOWN
        >upon him, usually in the form of a dove.
        >
        >- Kevin Johnson
        >
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      • Achilles37@aol.com
        ... Tord, I m surprised at you. You know, I believe this is the issue that split the list in the first place - text-based analysis vs. free association. I
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 29, 2000
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          Tord writes:

          > Scripture claims that Jesus cast demons into the
          > bodies of living pigs and sent them running into a
          > body of water to drown. How logical is that? Are
          > we forced to believe it? -- or can we use our common
          > sense?

          Tord, I'm surprised at you.

          You know, I believe this is the issue that split
          the list in the first place - text-based analysis
          vs. free association. I didn't think I should have
          to remind you, of all people, of the distinction.

          You are not "forced to believe" anything and
          you are free to reject whatever does not seem
          "logical" to you. But if you want to persuade
          others of your views, you will need something
          other than just the sheer force of your sparkling
          personality; you will need something in the way
          of evidence, which, in the case of ancient gospels,
          is generally textual in nature.

          Now the evidence I referred to is that all four
          canonical gospels (as well as the Gospel
          According to the Hebrews) state that the Spirit
          descended upon Jesus during his baptism.
          If you have evidence to the contrary, state it.

          Frankly, I don't see your problem with the Spirit
          entering him at Baptism. I suppose you'd prefer
          he was starving in the desert when the Spirit
          came to him. But to answer your question,
          No, we can't just reject the parts that don't
          seem logical to us (at least, not without evidence
          to the contrary). Why? 1.) Because we often
          find that these parts become more logical to us
          when we research them and 2.) because that
          approach leaves us with nothing. In that case,
          why believe anything? Why not just make it all
          up for yourself? After all, those gospel writers
          were just making it all up, weren't they?

          - Kevin Johnson
        • Yuri Kuchinsky
          On Sat, 29 Jan 2000 Achilles37@aol.com wrote: ... Sure I have evidence to the contrary, Kevin. Because in Jn nowhere it says that the Spirit descended upon
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 30, 2000
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            On Sat, 29 Jan 2000 Achilles37@... wrote:

            ...

            > Now the evidence I referred to is that all four
            > canonical gospels (as well as the Gospel
            > According to the Hebrews) state that the Spirit
            > descended upon Jesus during his baptism.
            > If you have evidence to the contrary, state it.

            Sure I have evidence to the contrary, Kevin. Because in Jn nowhere it says
            that the Spirit descended upon Jesus during his baptism.

            Although this may be _implied_ in Jn 1:32-4,

            32
            Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come
            down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.
            33
            I would not have known him, except that the one who sent
            me to baptize with water told me, `The man on whom you
            see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will
            baptize with the Holy Spirit.'
            34
            I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."

            but it says nothing specifically about the Spirit descending upon Jesus
            during his baptism.

            Regards,

            Yuri.

            Yuri Kuchinsky | Toronto | http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm

            Biblical history list http://www.egroups.com/group/loisy - unmoderated

            The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
            equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
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