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[gthomas] Re: Saying 97

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  • Cliff Hammond
    Or... that we are the woman, the jar, the meal, the path, the journey, [the birds of the field who eat the meal] and the stark realization that emptiness is
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 29, 1998
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      Or... that we are the woman, the jar, the meal, the path, the journey, [the birds of the field who eat the meal] and the stark realization that emptiness is form and form is within the emptiness - That the Kingdom of God *is* the context and its contents are "just as they are."

      -cliff

      Paul Miller wrote:

       
      But life is a long journey and it is easy to slowly lose that KOG that you
      had as a child..leaking out bit by bit as you move along....but if you
      could again become as a little child...well, you get the picture.
      
      Jack---------------------------------------
      
      I like this interpretation. Some of the logion are like Rorschach tests.
      Whats inside the person meshes with the logion and you get interpretation.
      
      Paul Miller

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      _______________________________________________________________________________

      97  Jesus said, the [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was empty.

      -Gospel of Thomas <http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html>
      _______________________________________________________________________________

      http://www.angelfire.com/tx/cliffhammond/IntroPage.html
      mailto:wycliffe@...
       


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    • ekklesia@worldnet.att.net
      On the other hand.....I like the words of Brett Michaels from the rock group Poison: I wish I didn t know now what I didn t know then ......perhaps the KOG
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 29, 1998
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        On the other hand.....I like the words of Brett Michaels from the rock group Poison:
        "I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then"......perhaps the KOG would
        be more "at hand" and more "within" and more relevant, and less diluted and distant.....

        Shalom,
        Lisa Grant

        Cliff Hammond wrote:

         Or... that we are the woman, the jar, the meal, the path, the journey, [the birds of the field who eat the meal] and the stark realization that emptiness is form and form is within the emptiness - That the Kingdom of God *is* the context and its contents are "just as they are."

        -cliff

        Paul Miller wrote:

         
        But life is a long journey and it is easy to slowly lose that KOG that you
        had as a child..leaking out bit by bit as you move along....but if you
        could again become as a little child...well, you get the picture.
        
        Jack---------------------------------------
        
        I like this interpretation. Some of the logion are like Rorschach tests.
        Whats inside the person meshes with the logion and you get interpretation.
        
        Paul Miller

        For the absolute lowest price on Computer Hardware:
        CLICK HERE!

        eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/gthomas
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        --
        _______________________________________________________________________________

        97  Jesus said, the [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was empty.

        -Gospel of Thomas <http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html>
        _______________________________________________________________________________

        http://www.angelfire.com/tx/cliffhammond/IntroPage.html
        mailto:wycliffe@...


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      • Paul Miller
        Or... that we are the woman, the jar, the meal, the path, the journey, [the birds of the field who eat the meal] and the stark realization that emptiness is
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 29, 1998
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          Or... that we are the woman, the jar, the meal, the path, the journey, [the birds of the field who eat the meal] and the stark realization that emptiness is form and form is within the emptiness - That the Kingdom of God *is* the context and its contents are "just as they are."

          -cliff ------------------------------------------

          Or that the woman sets the jar down looks inside and says "Hey!! What happened to all my meal!" :)

           

          Paul Miller

           

           


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        • Paul Miller
          ......perhaps the KOG would be more at hand and more within and more relevant, and less diluted and distant..... Shalom, Lisa Grant
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 29, 1998
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            "......perhaps the KOG would
            be more "at hand" and more "within" and more relevant, and less diluted and distant.....

            Shalom,
            Lisa Grant -------------------------------------------

            Nice to hear a woman's view on logion 97, after all the KOG is like a WOMAN who was carrying a jar full of meal. Lisa welcome to this young e mail list.

             

            Paul Miller

             


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          • Stevan Davies
            ... I m glad you included the saying. It s always easier to discuss things when they re included in the email. Thoughts: As usual in Thomas the Kingdom is like
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 30, 1998
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              > 97 Jesus said, the [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who
              > was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking
              > along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the
              > meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know
              > it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her
              > house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was
              > empty.

              I'm glad you included the saying. It's always easier to discuss
              things when they're included in the email.

              Thoughts:

              As usual in Thomas the Kingdom is like a person. The
              woman is not "at fault" here. Repeatedly (in a rather Markan
              reiterative fashion) we hear that she did not know what was
              happening.
              She didn't break the jar, it just broke.
              < She didn't know it;
              > she hadn't noticed a problem.
              > When she reached her
              > house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was
              > empty.

              It's an event of discovery though, like the pearl and treasure
              and fish. Instead of "Oh, wow!" I suppose the reaction would
              be "Oh, damn!" Instead of "get rid of everything else and keep
              what you discover" the response has to be "go do it all over
              again." But the common element remains the shock of
              discovery. So the kingdom is like a person who has that
              sort of shock of discovery experience.

              Steve

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            • Mike Grondin
              People - please do not copy the entire message you re responding to! I know it s easier, but it s not necessary, and it only makes more work for the reader
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 30, 1998
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                People - please do not copy the entire message you're responding to! I know
                it's easier, but it's not necessary, and it only makes more work for the
                reader having to peruse the whole thing. This is especially true now that
                we're getting advertising tacked onto our messages, and now that some folks
                are sending HTML stuff. So, please, just cut and paste the part of the
                message you're responding to. Thanks.

                Mike
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              • ekklesia@worldnet.att.net
                thanks for the warm welcome! ... eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/gthomas Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 30, 1998
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                  thanks for the warm welcome!

                  Paul Miller wrote:

                   "......perhaps the KOG would
                  be more "at hand" and more "within" and more relevant, and less diluted and distant.....

                  Shalom,
                  Lisa Grant -------------------------------------------

                  Nice to hear a woman's view on logion 97, after all the KOG is like a WOMAN who was carrying a jar full of meal. Lisa welcome to this young e mail list.
                   
                   

                  Paul Miller
                   
                   


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                • ekklesia@worldnet.att.net
                  okay already! ... eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/gthomas Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 30, 1998
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                    okay already!

                    Mike Grondin wrote:

                    > People - please do not copy the entire message you're responding to!
                    > [snip]

                    > So, please, just cut and paste the part of the
                    > message you're responding to. Thanks.
                    >
                    > Mike
                    >


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                  • Mats Winther
                    Concerning logion 97 I would like to point out the saying from the Hebrew (Ebionite) Gospel: The Saviour said: Now my mother, the holy spirit, took me by one
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 10, 1999
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                      Concerning logion 97 I would like to point out the saying from the
                      Hebrew (Ebionite) Gospel: The Saviour said: "Now my mother, the holy
                      spirit, took me by one of my hairs and carried me to the high mountain
                      Tabor."
                      This tallies with an interpretation of the jar as a person of light
                      who is carried by the holy spirit (i.e. a woman who is the mother).
                      This may also point at a possibility that Jesus understood the holy
                      spirit as a person of feminine gender.
                      I have pondered the question of why the woman is unconscious of the
                      fact that the jar is leaking. The leaking can be understood as the
                      suffering of a person of light. The leaking is when his blood (i.e.
                      the meal) pours down on earth. Jesus may have experienced his life as
                      continous suffering. Although he was securely carried by the mother,
                      this female person must have been unconscious of the suffering,
                      otherwise she would take measures to stop the bleeding and mend the
                      wound. Why this unconsciousness must exist is yet another mystery in
                      the divine drama. But this may at least enhance the understanding of
                      the suffering of Christ on the cross and his lamentation "...My God,
                      my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mat 27:46).

                      ---------------------
                      I'm sorry that I repeat myself from here on but I want to repeat some
                      of my views on logion 97 for new participants:
                      We can look upon it within the context of the sayings where he speaks
                      about the light: (Logion 24) "...There is light within a person of
                      light, and it shines on the whole world. If it does not shine, it is
                      dark." (Logion 77) "..I am the light that is over all things. I am
                      all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

                      So the meal may be understood as more or less the same as the light
                      which a person of light shines on the world during his lifetime. One
                      can understand this as the Son returning to the Father after his
                      mission on earth. So a jar spilling meal over the world has a
                      symbolical resemblance to a lamp that "spills" light over the world.
                      The latter conception occurs in the Gospel as sayings of Jesus e.g.
                      Luk 11:36: "If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no
                      part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright
                      shining of a candle doth give thee light."

                      What seems to occur is that a person of light "breaks" and because of
                      this leaks the white light upon the world. This, of course, is true
                      about Christ. He suffered while on earth, and while crucified he was
                      penetrated with a lance so that his blood poured out on earth. The
                      notion of breaking is obvious in the case of the breaking of the bread
                      (to Jesus a very important conception). In John 6:51 Jesus says: "I am
                      the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this
                      bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my
                      flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
                      A loaf of bread can be seen as a receptacle of meal. The loaf must be
                      broken and distributed to the people. This is similar to the breaking
                      of the jar which causes the spiritual meal to leak out upon the world.
                      But the breaking entails suffering. It seems to imply that a wound has
                      to be inflicted in order for the light to leak out from a
                      light-person.

                      What is very curious in this parable is that the woman carries on
                      unconscious of the fact that the jar is leaking. This may be how Jesus
                      experienced his life as a person of light. He feels like a receptacle
                      of spirit that continously pours forth like a fountain of light. But
                      in some way he is passive. He is carried by the unconscious woman and
                      has no other choice than to carry out his Father's will by suffering
                      and spreading the grace of God upon earth. So the unconscious woman
                      then, could be interpreted as the unconscious psyche. The immense
                      power of the unconscious is carrying him through life and takes him
                      back to his Father's house. This is true about any person of light.

                      I think that saying 97 is an amplification of this conception of the
                      person that shines light from within. This light is food for the soul
                      i.e. meal. But in this parable Jesus expands on the subject and
                      introduces the element of suffering (breaking) and also how he himself
                      feels as a person of light, i.e. that he is carried by the unconscious
                      woman. So in a way he feels like a child who is carried by his mother.
                      Perhaps he wants to convey his own complete feeling of security i.e.
                      how a light-person will feel when two becomes one. And when the river
                      of living water finally ceases to flow from his interior he will
                      arrive at his Fathers house. But the Father is the Great Spirit
                      himself, i.e. the source of all rivers of living water.

                      We also know from depth psychology of a process called
                      'individuation'. When this is invoked the individual has the
                      experience of being carried by a strong current towards a goal which
                      have been denoted 'the self'. The carrying current is called 'the
                      collective unconscious' and is with men personalized as the feminine
                      figure of the anima. So, psychologically speaking, logion 97 is
                      comprehensible and must have been expressed by a person that had
                      experienced these things. He actually talks about this unconscious
                      woman who is the carrier of the jar that spreads meal over the world.
                      These symbols are very potent and to a certain extent comprehensible
                      too. With normal persons, when their candles go out they simply die
                      and vanish. However, Jesus in logion 97 probably tells us that persons
                      who have become "persons of light" are carried away to their Father's
                      house. So their candles do not rest on the ground. They are carried
                      away and when their candles go out and they die they arrive at the
                      eternal life at their Father's house.


                      Mats Winther





















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