[gthomas] Re: Stevan's Thoughts On Early Christianity 1
> The use of the word "intoxicated" in the GOT seems a bit confusing to meSteve:
> --- Jesus can intoxicate with his words but the world appears able to
> intoxicate people as well.
>Good observation. Intoxication means ignorance, intoxication meansNice try, Steve. Actually, Tord's "good observation" ignores the difference
>knowledge. One more reason to think that GTh is more of a hodgepodge
>than a carefully assembled document.
between wine and water, and so do you. And what kind of a "hodgepodge"
would somehow accidentally result in two "ear" sayings positioned just
right to surround the pair 64-65, and to "hear" the nicely complementary
words at the end of 63 and 65? More random chance? How much will you bear? <g>
- At 08:27 PM 10/18/99 -0400, Michael Grondin wrote:
---------- Reply ------------
>Nice try, Steve. Actually, Tord's "good observation" ignores the difference<g>
>between wine and water, and so do you. And what kind of a "hodgepodge"
>would somehow accidentally result in two "ear" sayings positioned just
>right to surround the pair 64-65, and to "hear" the nicely complementary
>words at the end of 63 and 65? More random chance? How much will you bear?
>------------- Reply ---------------
People are intoxicated by water as well as wine. if the Pope throws Holy
Water on an individual who is ready for the experience, he or she can
easily swoon and become intoxicated.
Thomas said to Him, "Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom
You are like."
Jesus said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become
intoxicated by the bubbling spring which I have measured out."
In this I take the sense that Jesus is rebuking Thomas for using the word
"Master" --thus separating himself from Jesus as the all. Jesus excuses
Thomas for being hypnotized by Jesus' verbal teachings -- rather much like
all the girls who swoon for Ricky Martin yet who don't understand the
lyrics of his songs.
But --witnessing previous thoughts on the continuity of sentences within
sayings, sentence A -- "I am not your master." may have nothing to do with
sentence B, "Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated by the
bubbling spring which I have measured out." They just may happen to be
sitting next to one another for no particular reason.
63 has ears The ear is in 65.
66 appears to go with 65 in the synoptic gospels --the vineyard story
continues right into the cornerstone.
65: Mt21:33-39, Mk12:1-8, Lk20:9-15
66: Mt21:42, Mk12:10, Lk20:17; Psalm118:22
This appears to be a case where the two sayings go together as evidenced by
the synoptic gospels and the GOT. Interesting.
- At 10:43 AM 10/17/99 -0500, Stevan Davies wrote:
>> The popular version of the history of this has the------------ Reply ---------------
>> Christian hierarchy as sealing off "revelation" ( as an altered state) and
>> claiming that the Holy Ghost spoke through Jesus alone --spoke also through
>> the other prophets --and never more ( ie the Bible is the Word of God).
>Yeah. That's good old "routinization of charisma" and is common, if
>not inevitable, a generation or two after the rise of a spirit
>oriented cult. That's why the Methodists of today sit around glumly
>listening to their ministers and hymning when at the outset they used
>to get sanctified and pass out. You want to see early Christianity at
>work, go to a Vinyard church, or a black pentecostal church.
Vineyard church information can be found at
I have been to Pentecostal services but it has been a while. I will check
out the Vineyard Church in Cambridge and the Pentacostals next door to my
church -- (a cult specifically identified as Liberian). The Charismatic
Catholics are another easy to find group. I attended a service of Christian
oriented peyote cult Native Americans --took the peyote with them -- and
was persecuted by our society for being a co-founder of a non-Native
American church devoted to this aspect of religious experience --we called
ourselves The Neo-American Church. Peyote possession is the equivalent of
heroin in some states.
That approach to religious experience can be found at:
As related to the GOT one of the participants in the Marsh Chapel
-------- quote ------------
"Today, Mike Young is the Rev. Mike Young, pastor of the Unitarian
Universalist Church in Tampa. He was one of the 10 who took psilocybin that
Good Friday three decades ago. "Of course I remember it. All of it," he
says. "Experiencing death is something you don't forget."
Those wild and colorful seven hours showed him a new mode of perception
that was nothing short of ecstatic. The drug trip helped solidify his
career path in the ministry. And it conquered his fear of death.
Young, now 55, graying and bearded, is not a cheerleader for drug abuse. He
has counseled drug abusers. He has seen how drugs can rip lives apart. He
warned his own children about the dangers of recreational use.
But he also learned enough through his own experience to know that some
drugs, used judiciously, can open a door. He's convinced psychedelics can
be powerful tools for personal growth, as long as they're used in carefully
controlled situations, administered by professionals trained to handle
The aspect of death is important in the GOT
1) And He said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will
not experience death."
18) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be."
Jesus said, "Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that you look for
the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Blessed is he
who will take his place in the beginning; he will know the end and will not
19) Jesus said, "Blessed is he who came into being before he came into
being. If you become My disciples and listen to My words, these stones will
minister to you. For there are five trees for you in Paradise which remain
undisturbed summer and winter and whose leaves do not fall. Whoever becomes
acquainted with them will not experience death."
111) Jesus said, "The heavens and the earth will be rolled up in your
presence. And one who lives from the Living One will not see death." Does
not Jesus say, "Whoever finds himself is superior to the world?"
The subject of the Marsh Chapel Experiment also says --
-------- Quote -----------
"Religious ideas that were interesting intellectually before, took on a
whole different dimension. Now they were connected to something much deeper
than belief and theory."
There are several URLs on this page which relate top religious experience.
Steve -- Do you think that it is possible to get at a personal experience
of some aspects of the sayings of the GOT by means of the Pentecostal
Church, the Charismatics and/or the Vineyard? To many scholars, the sayings
are "interesting intellectually" but that is the total extent of their
91) They said to Him, "Tell us who You are so that we may believe in You."
He said to them, "You read the face of the sky and of the earth, but you
have not recognized the one who is before you, and you do not know how to
read this moment."
------ Tord said -----------
>> I am certainly interested in any clues you may have found in the GOT as to-------- Steve said --------------
>> HOW Jesus wanted to reach an altered state of consciousness in his
>> followers. Personal contact with him seems to be important.
>You are going to have to read my book "Jesus the Healer: Possession,-------------
>Trance and the Origins of Christianity." There the question of "how
>might the spirit experience have been caused" is addressed (for the
>first time in the history of scholarship, far as I know) extensively.
>> Is there any
>> evidence that he sent disciples on "vision quests" to attain an altered
>> state which you speak of?
>> Thanks and have a good Sunday. I very much look forward to your expositions
>> on altered states in relation to early Christianity.
>It's all there in Acts and Corinthians and even John. Because the
>study of the NT is dominated by liberal Xians they refuse to notice
>that the NT is the story of the rise of a spirit possession cult (aka
>pentecostal cult). The people who do notice, the Pentecostals,
>are all a bunch of hidebound inerrantists. But it is refreshing once
>in awhile to read Pentecostal versions of first century Christian
>history because even if they are completely non-critical, at least they
>don't ignore what's mainly going on.
What you say here I take implies that the vast majority of Christians
completely ignore what the basis of their religion is about? They practice
the "routinization of charisma" rather than the real thing? It sounds a
bit like what often happens to sexual experience in marriage :-)