[gthomas] Re: acid contains light
- Regarding John Allegro's old thesis that "primitive Christianity" was a
"magic mushroom cult", Jim Bauer wrote:
>How do you know it's false?Let me count the ways:
(1) No mention of mushrooms in Xian writings.
(2) No mention of mushrooms from the opponents of Xianity.
(3) No reports of secret mushroom ceremonies from ex-Xians.
(Yeah, I know. They destroyed all the evidence.)
>Anyone who's had the psychedelic experience can attest to its potentialSure - I've already agreed to that. But you seem to be thinking that if A
>explanatory nature as to religious mysticsm, if nothing else.
can cause B, then the existence of B indicates the existence of A. Logical
fallacy - unless ONLY A can cause B - which we know to be false in this
case. In non-logical terms, we know that anything possible under the
influence of mind-altering substances is also possible without them. In the
absence of evidence to the contrary, then, we have to conclude that the
early Xians, insofar as they may have sometimes acted and/or wrote as if
they were "high", were just high on religion (or the Holy Spirit, if you
like). Pretty common phenomenon, actually.
>I'm not really siding with Allegro here, I'm just tryingMyself, I don't see any point to a debate whose outcome is foreordained.
>to spark a debate about a controversial point.
Maybe you can come up with something else, more directly relevant to GThom.
How about that "body" thing you started on?
- At 02:51 AM 9/9/99 -0600, Jim Bauer wrote:
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>---------- Reply -------------
>So... what was it the author(s) of GThomas were eating, drinking, or smoking?
Jim -- I read Allegro's book when it was published. In the sixties. At that
time, there was a new widespread public awareness of the connection between
the plant kingdom and our consciousness. The ancient people were aware of
this connection. In the middle-east the use of cannabis apparently predates
In modern times the trade in mind-altering substances is vitally important
to middle-eastern culture. Its called "drug-trafficking". When I was living
(for about a year --off and on) in the Beka valley of Lebanon I sought to
find any traces of "magic mushrooms". There was hashish everywhere --but
any mushrooms that I ever was aware of came from westerners bring them in
from Europe or the US.
We took modern psychedelic drugs with a wide range of indigenous Lebanese
people. Almost invariably the reaction was somewhat unpleasant and, at
times, dangerous. In one session I recall a group of local hashish
war-lords sitting intensely for hours wondering who was going to go for his
gun first (they all carried guns). I can well imagine the problems that
Jesus faced in his three years of public life among these people.
Anyway -- the idea of natural plant substances like mushrooms, cannabis,
etc. influencing the early Christians is speculative. Jesus mentions
alcohol -- the mystery cults of the Greeks may have used mushrooms. Jesus
is said to have attempted ( as did the Buddha) to gain understanding by
going into the wilderness on what could be termed a "vision quest" -- How
he felt that he could produce this sort of awareness in his disciples is
not clear to me. The GOT portrays him as being frustrated with the
disciples and it may well be that only one or two of them ever had a clue
what he was talking about. Modern spiritual teachers like Ganesh Baba say
"Beware of the non-psychedelic." Ganesh Baba
"A non-psychedelic can never enlighten a psychedelic." Ganesh Baba
--Peter seemed to be clueless in the GOT, yet he was supposedly the "rock"
Jesus chose to found Christianity on. Apparently all of the disciples save
for Mary deserted him at the time of his crucifixion --so they obviously
feared death and didn't understand saying #1 nor anything else of the GOT.
Jesus underwent another "vision-quest" on the cross -- something which
certainly changes one's body chemistry. He didn't seem to like this path to
Freud was vitally interested in getting at the seven day old mind that
Jesus claimed was capable of understanding "the place of life". Freud was
also frustrated and believed it was because there was no way to reproduce
the conditioning that results in the formation of the adult mind from
childhood. "The blows of the gods (parents and culture) fall softly, but
they leave wounds that never heal." Freud saw some hope in cocaine --Buddha
preached meditation to arouse the mind without attaching it anywhere. The
GOT Jesus counseled "movement with repose." and reaching a state of
astonishment through seeking.
They all seemed to have left the details to you.
- Michael Grondin wrote:
>In all fairness, I should say - harking back to Bob Tessman's arguments -Your first mistake was to accept the nitrous oxide. Your second mistake
>that under the influence of nitrous oxide at the dentist's office, I myself
>have occasionally entertained the thought that the external world is
>nothing but a bad dream. Entertained it, that is, until the dentist's drill
>hit a particularly sensitive spot, which reminded me all over again that
>the world has a way of not going away (which is the only meaning I can
>attach to the word 'objective').
was that you never learned how to redirect the energy known as 'pain' so
that it would not be so intensely concentrated on one part of the body.
Your third mistake, having never learned how to channel energy, is that you
refused the nitrous oxide! You should first learn how to channel energy
before you try a stunt like that again.
- At 06:42 AM 09/09/99 -0500, Robert Tessman wrote:
>Your third mistake, having never learned how to channel energy, is that youYou're confused, Robert. I've never refused nitrous. In fact, I insist on
>refused the nitrous oxide!
it. It's the only reason I even go to the dentist. I've come to many a
profound insight under the influence of nitrous - if only I could remember
what they were. :-)
- "Acid contains light" Jim Bauer after Bryan Robinson
"Pain contains light" Robert Tessman
"Humor is light" Robert Tessman
"Traffic is not light." Andrew Smith