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[gthomas] Re: acid contains light

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  • Michael Grondin
    Regarding John Allegro s old thesis that primitive Christianity was a ... Let me count the ways: (1) No mention of mushrooms in Xian writings. (2) No mention
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 8, 1999
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      Regarding John Allegro's old thesis that "primitive Christianity" was a
      "magic mushroom cult", Jim Bauer wrote:
      >How do you know it's false?

      Let me count the ways:
      (1) No mention of mushrooms in Xian writings.
      (2) No mention of mushrooms from the opponents of Xianity.
      (3) No reports of secret mushroom ceremonies from ex-Xians.

      (Yeah, I know. They destroyed all the evidence.)

      >Anyone who's had the psychedelic experience can attest to its potential
      >explanatory nature as to religious mysticsm, if nothing else.

      Sure - I've already agreed to that. But you seem to be thinking that if A
      can cause B, then the existence of B indicates the existence of A. Logical
      fallacy - unless ONLY A can cause B - which we know to be false in this
      case. In non-logical terms, we know that anything possible under the
      influence of mind-altering substances is also possible without them. In the
      absence of evidence to the contrary, then, we have to conclude that the
      early Xians, insofar as they may have sometimes acted and/or wrote as if
      they were "high", were just high on religion (or the Holy Spirit, if you
      like). Pretty common phenomenon, actually.

      >I'm not really siding with Allegro here, I'm just trying
      >to spark a debate about a controversial point.

      Myself, I don't see any point to a debate whose outcome is foreordained.
      Maybe you can come up with something else, more directly relevant to GThom.
      How about that "body" thing you started on?

      Regards,
      Mike
    • Tord Svenson
      ... Jim -- I read Allegro s book when it was published. In the sixties. At that time, there was a new widespread public awareness of the connection between the
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 9, 1999
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        At 02:51 AM 9/9/99 -0600, Jim Bauer wrote:
        ------- snip ------------
        >
        >So... what was it the author(s) of GThomas were eating, drinking, or smoking?
        >
        >Jim Bauer
        >
        ---------- Reply -------------
        Jim -- I read Allegro's book when it was published. In the sixties. At that
        time, there was a new widespread public awareness of the connection between
        the plant kingdom and our consciousness. The ancient people were aware of
        this connection. In the middle-east the use of cannabis apparently predates
        written records.

        In modern times the trade in mind-altering substances is vitally important
        to middle-eastern culture. Its called "drug-trafficking". When I was living
        (for about a year --off and on) in the Beka valley of Lebanon I sought to
        find any traces of "magic mushrooms". There was hashish everywhere --but
        any mushrooms that I ever was aware of came from westerners bring them in
        from Europe or the US.

        We took modern psychedelic drugs with a wide range of indigenous Lebanese
        people. Almost invariably the reaction was somewhat unpleasant and, at
        times, dangerous. In one session I recall a group of local hashish
        war-lords sitting intensely for hours wondering who was going to go for his
        gun first (they all carried guns). I can well imagine the problems that
        Jesus faced in his three years of public life among these people.

        Anyway -- the idea of natural plant substances like mushrooms, cannabis,
        etc. influencing the early Christians is speculative. Jesus mentions
        alcohol -- the mystery cults of the Greeks may have used mushrooms. Jesus
        is said to have attempted ( as did the Buddha) to gain understanding by
        going into the wilderness on what could be termed a "vision quest" -- How
        he felt that he could produce this sort of awareness in his disciples is
        not clear to me. The GOT portrays him as being frustrated with the
        disciples and it may well be that only one or two of them ever had a clue
        what he was talking about. Modern spiritual teachers like Ganesh Baba say
        ------------------
        "Beware of the non-psychedelic." Ganesh Baba
        "A non-psychedelic can never enlighten a psychedelic." Ganesh Baba
        ------------------------
        --Peter seemed to be clueless in the GOT, yet he was supposedly the "rock"
        Jesus chose to found Christianity on. Apparently all of the disciples save
        for Mary deserted him at the time of his crucifixion --so they obviously
        feared death and didn't understand saying #1 nor anything else of the GOT.

        Jesus underwent another "vision-quest" on the cross -- something which
        certainly changes one's body chemistry. He didn't seem to like this path to
        understanding.

        Freud was vitally interested in getting at the seven day old mind that
        Jesus claimed was capable of understanding "the place of life". Freud was
        also frustrated and believed it was because there was no way to reproduce
        the conditioning that results in the formation of the adult mind from
        childhood. "The blows of the gods (parents and culture) fall softly, but
        they leave wounds that never heal." Freud saw some hope in cocaine --Buddha
        preached meditation to arouse the mind without attaching it anywhere. The
        GOT Jesus counseled "movement with repose." and reaching a state of
        astonishment through seeking.

        They all seemed to have left the details to you.
        Tord
      • Robert Tessman
        ... Your first mistake was to accept the nitrous oxide. Your second mistake was that you never learned how to redirect the energy known as pain so that it
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 9, 1999
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          Michael Grondin wrote:
          >In all fairness, I should say - harking back to Bob Tessman's arguments -
          >that under the influence of nitrous oxide at the dentist's office, I myself
          >have occasionally entertained the thought that the external world is
          >nothing but a bad dream. Entertained it, that is, until the dentist's drill
          >hit a particularly sensitive spot, which reminded me all over again that
          >the world has a way of not going away (which is the only meaning I can
          >attach to the word 'objective').

          Your first mistake was to accept the nitrous oxide. Your second mistake
          was that you never learned how to redirect the energy known as 'pain' so
          that it would not be so intensely concentrated on one part of the body.
          Your third mistake, having never learned how to channel energy, is that you
          refused the nitrous oxide! You should first learn how to channel energy
          before you try a stunt like that again.
        • Michael Grondin
          ... You re confused, Robert. I ve never refused nitrous. In fact, I insist on it. It s the only reason I even go to the dentist. I ve come to many a profound
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 9, 1999
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            At 06:42 AM 09/09/99 -0500, Robert Tessman wrote:
            >Your third mistake, having never learned how to channel energy, is that you
            >refused the nitrous oxide!

            You're confused, Robert. I've never refused nitrous. In fact, I insist on
            it. It's the only reason I even go to the dentist. I've come to many a
            profound insight under the influence of nitrous - if only I could remember
            what they were. :-)

            Mike
          • Andrew Smith
            Acid contains light Jim Bauer after Bryan Robinson Pain contains light Robert Tessman Humor is light Robert Tessman Traffic is not light. Andrew Smith
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 9, 1999
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              "Acid contains light" Jim Bauer after Bryan Robinson
              "Pain contains light" Robert Tessman
              "Humor is light" Robert Tessman
              "Traffic is not light." Andrew Smith
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