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[gthomas] Re: Saying 97

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  • Paul Miller
    But life is a long journey and it is easy to slowly lose that KOG that you had as a child..leaking out bit by bit as you move along....but if you could again
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 28, 1998
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      But life is a long journey and it is easy to slowly lose that KOG that you
      had as a child..leaking out bit by bit as you move along....but if you
      could again become as a little child...well, you get the picture.

      Jack---------------------------------------

      I like this interpretation. Some of the logion are like Rorschach tests.
      Whats inside the person meshes with the logion and you get interpretation.

      Paul Miller



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    • Cliff Hammond
      Or... that we are the woman, the jar, the meal, the path, the journey, [the birds of the field who eat the meal] and the stark realization that emptiness is
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 29, 1998
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        Or... that we are the woman, the jar, the meal, the path, the journey, [the birds of the field who eat the meal] and the stark realization that emptiness is form and form is within the emptiness - That the Kingdom of God *is* the context and its contents are "just as they are."

        -cliff

        Paul Miller wrote:

         
        But life is a long journey and it is easy to slowly lose that KOG that you
        had as a child..leaking out bit by bit as you move along....but if you
        could again become as a little child...well, you get the picture.
        
        Jack---------------------------------------
        
        I like this interpretation. Some of the logion are like Rorschach tests.
        Whats inside the person meshes with the logion and you get interpretation.
        
        Paul Miller

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        _______________________________________________________________________________

        97  Jesus said, the [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was empty.

        -Gospel of Thomas <http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html>
        _______________________________________________________________________________

        http://www.angelfire.com/tx/cliffhammond/IntroPage.html
        mailto:wycliffe@...
         


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      • ekklesia@worldnet.att.net
        On the other hand.....I like the words of Brett Michaels from the rock group Poison: I wish I didn t know now what I didn t know then ......perhaps the KOG
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 29, 1998
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          On the other hand.....I like the words of Brett Michaels from the rock group Poison:
          "I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then"......perhaps the KOG would
          be more "at hand" and more "within" and more relevant, and less diluted and distant.....

          Shalom,
          Lisa Grant

          Cliff Hammond wrote:

           Or... that we are the woman, the jar, the meal, the path, the journey, [the birds of the field who eat the meal] and the stark realization that emptiness is form and form is within the emptiness - That the Kingdom of God *is* the context and its contents are "just as they are."

          -cliff

          Paul Miller wrote:

           
          But life is a long journey and it is easy to slowly lose that KOG that you
          had as a child..leaking out bit by bit as you move along....but if you
          could again become as a little child...well, you get the picture.
          
          Jack---------------------------------------
          
          I like this interpretation. Some of the logion are like Rorschach tests.
          Whats inside the person meshes with the logion and you get interpretation.
          
          Paul Miller

          For the absolute lowest price on Computer Hardware:
          CLICK HERE!

          eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/gthomas
          Free Web-based e-mail groups by www.eGroups.com

          --
          _______________________________________________________________________________

          97  Jesus said, the [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was empty.

          -Gospel of Thomas <http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html>
          _______________________________________________________________________________

          http://www.angelfire.com/tx/cliffhammond/IntroPage.html
          mailto:wycliffe@...


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        • Paul Miller
          Or... that we are the woman, the jar, the meal, the path, the journey, [the birds of the field who eat the meal] and the stark realization that emptiness is
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 29, 1998
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            Or... that we are the woman, the jar, the meal, the path, the journey, [the birds of the field who eat the meal] and the stark realization that emptiness is form and form is within the emptiness - That the Kingdom of God *is* the context and its contents are "just as they are."

            -cliff ------------------------------------------

            Or that the woman sets the jar down looks inside and says "Hey!! What happened to all my meal!" :)

             

            Paul Miller

             

             


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          • Paul Miller
            ......perhaps the KOG would be more at hand and more within and more relevant, and less diluted and distant..... Shalom, Lisa Grant
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 29, 1998
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              "......perhaps the KOG would
              be more "at hand" and more "within" and more relevant, and less diluted and distant.....

              Shalom,
              Lisa Grant -------------------------------------------

              Nice to hear a woman's view on logion 97, after all the KOG is like a WOMAN who was carrying a jar full of meal. Lisa welcome to this young e mail list.

               

              Paul Miller

               


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            • Stevan Davies
              ... I m glad you included the saying. It s always easier to discuss things when they re included in the email. Thoughts: As usual in Thomas the Kingdom is like
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 30, 1998
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                > 97 Jesus said, the [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who
                > was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking
                > along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the
                > meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know
                > it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her
                > house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was
                > empty.

                I'm glad you included the saying. It's always easier to discuss
                things when they're included in the email.

                Thoughts:

                As usual in Thomas the Kingdom is like a person. The
                woman is not "at fault" here. Repeatedly (in a rather Markan
                reiterative fashion) we hear that she did not know what was
                happening.
                She didn't break the jar, it just broke.
                < She didn't know it;
                > she hadn't noticed a problem.
                > When she reached her
                > house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was
                > empty.

                It's an event of discovery though, like the pearl and treasure
                and fish. Instead of "Oh, wow!" I suppose the reaction would
                be "Oh, damn!" Instead of "get rid of everything else and keep
                what you discover" the response has to be "go do it all over
                again." But the common element remains the shock of
                discovery. So the kingdom is like a person who has that
                sort of shock of discovery experience.

                Steve

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              • Mike Grondin
                People - please do not copy the entire message you re responding to! I know it s easier, but it s not necessary, and it only makes more work for the reader
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 30, 1998
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                  People - please do not copy the entire message you're responding to! I know
                  it's easier, but it's not necessary, and it only makes more work for the
                  reader having to peruse the whole thing. This is especially true now that
                  we're getting advertising tacked onto our messages, and now that some folks
                  are sending HTML stuff. So, please, just cut and paste the part of the
                  message you're responding to. Thanks.

                  Mike
                  ------------------------------------
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                  http://www.geocities.com/athens/9068

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                • ekklesia@worldnet.att.net
                  thanks for the warm welcome! ... eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/gthomas Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 30, 1998
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                    thanks for the warm welcome!

                    Paul Miller wrote:

                     "......perhaps the KOG would
                    be more "at hand" and more "within" and more relevant, and less diluted and distant.....

                    Shalom,
                    Lisa Grant -------------------------------------------

                    Nice to hear a woman's view on logion 97, after all the KOG is like a WOMAN who was carrying a jar full of meal. Lisa welcome to this young e mail list.
                     
                     

                    Paul Miller
                     
                     


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                  • ekklesia@worldnet.att.net
                    okay already! ... eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/gthomas Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 30, 1998
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                      okay already!

                      Mike Grondin wrote:

                      > People - please do not copy the entire message you're responding to!
                      > [snip]

                      > So, please, just cut and paste the part of the
                      > message you're responding to. Thanks.
                      >
                      > Mike
                      >


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                    • Mats Winther
                      Concerning logion 97 I would like to point out the saying from the Hebrew (Ebionite) Gospel: The Saviour said: Now my mother, the holy spirit, took me by one
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 10, 1999
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                        Concerning logion 97 I would like to point out the saying from the
                        Hebrew (Ebionite) Gospel: The Saviour said: "Now my mother, the holy
                        spirit, took me by one of my hairs and carried me to the high mountain
                        Tabor."
                        This tallies with an interpretation of the jar as a person of light
                        who is carried by the holy spirit (i.e. a woman who is the mother).
                        This may also point at a possibility that Jesus understood the holy
                        spirit as a person of feminine gender.
                        I have pondered the question of why the woman is unconscious of the
                        fact that the jar is leaking. The leaking can be understood as the
                        suffering of a person of light. The leaking is when his blood (i.e.
                        the meal) pours down on earth. Jesus may have experienced his life as
                        continous suffering. Although he was securely carried by the mother,
                        this female person must have been unconscious of the suffering,
                        otherwise she would take measures to stop the bleeding and mend the
                        wound. Why this unconsciousness must exist is yet another mystery in
                        the divine drama. But this may at least enhance the understanding of
                        the suffering of Christ on the cross and his lamentation "...My God,
                        my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mat 27:46).

                        ---------------------
                        I'm sorry that I repeat myself from here on but I want to repeat some
                        of my views on logion 97 for new participants:
                        We can look upon it within the context of the sayings where he speaks
                        about the light: (Logion 24) "...There is light within a person of
                        light, and it shines on the whole world. If it does not shine, it is
                        dark." (Logion 77) "..I am the light that is over all things. I am
                        all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

                        So the meal may be understood as more or less the same as the light
                        which a person of light shines on the world during his lifetime. One
                        can understand this as the Son returning to the Father after his
                        mission on earth. So a jar spilling meal over the world has a
                        symbolical resemblance to a lamp that "spills" light over the world.
                        The latter conception occurs in the Gospel as sayings of Jesus e.g.
                        Luk 11:36: "If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no
                        part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright
                        shining of a candle doth give thee light."

                        What seems to occur is that a person of light "breaks" and because of
                        this leaks the white light upon the world. This, of course, is true
                        about Christ. He suffered while on earth, and while crucified he was
                        penetrated with a lance so that his blood poured out on earth. The
                        notion of breaking is obvious in the case of the breaking of the bread
                        (to Jesus a very important conception). In John 6:51 Jesus says: "I am
                        the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this
                        bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my
                        flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
                        A loaf of bread can be seen as a receptacle of meal. The loaf must be
                        broken and distributed to the people. This is similar to the breaking
                        of the jar which causes the spiritual meal to leak out upon the world.
                        But the breaking entails suffering. It seems to imply that a wound has
                        to be inflicted in order for the light to leak out from a
                        light-person.

                        What is very curious in this parable is that the woman carries on
                        unconscious of the fact that the jar is leaking. This may be how Jesus
                        experienced his life as a person of light. He feels like a receptacle
                        of spirit that continously pours forth like a fountain of light. But
                        in some way he is passive. He is carried by the unconscious woman and
                        has no other choice than to carry out his Father's will by suffering
                        and spreading the grace of God upon earth. So the unconscious woman
                        then, could be interpreted as the unconscious psyche. The immense
                        power of the unconscious is carrying him through life and takes him
                        back to his Father's house. This is true about any person of light.

                        I think that saying 97 is an amplification of this conception of the
                        person that shines light from within. This light is food for the soul
                        i.e. meal. But in this parable Jesus expands on the subject and
                        introduces the element of suffering (breaking) and also how he himself
                        feels as a person of light, i.e. that he is carried by the unconscious
                        woman. So in a way he feels like a child who is carried by his mother.
                        Perhaps he wants to convey his own complete feeling of security i.e.
                        how a light-person will feel when two becomes one. And when the river
                        of living water finally ceases to flow from his interior he will
                        arrive at his Fathers house. But the Father is the Great Spirit
                        himself, i.e. the source of all rivers of living water.

                        We also know from depth psychology of a process called
                        'individuation'. When this is invoked the individual has the
                        experience of being carried by a strong current towards a goal which
                        have been denoted 'the self'. The carrying current is called 'the
                        collective unconscious' and is with men personalized as the feminine
                        figure of the anima. So, psychologically speaking, logion 97 is
                        comprehensible and must have been expressed by a person that had
                        experienced these things. He actually talks about this unconscious
                        woman who is the carrier of the jar that spreads meal over the world.
                        These symbols are very potent and to a certain extent comprehensible
                        too. With normal persons, when their candles go out they simply die
                        and vanish. However, Jesus in logion 97 probably tells us that persons
                        who have become "persons of light" are carried away to their Father's
                        house. So their candles do not rest on the ground. They are carried
                        away and when their candles go out and they die they arrive at the
                        eternal life at their Father's house.


                        Mats Winther





















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