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[gthomas] The Pancrator in 77a

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  • Mike Grondin
    ... Interesting, then, that 77a doesn t seem to fit with the rest. 77b&c (which are of a piece) are in the POxy fragments, but not in the same place - and 77a
    Message 1 of 3 , Jul 19, 1999
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      Steve Davies:
      >...77a is arguably the most anciently attested of all the Thomas
      >sayings, fitting as it does with that host of pre-gospel "Jesus
      >the Pantocrator" material, albeit first-person and not third-person.

      Interesting, then, that 77a doesn't seem to fit with the rest. 77b&c (which
      are of a piece) are in the POxy fragments, but not in the same place - and
      77a isn't with them. The "pre-Gospel" Pantocrator material you specified
      in another note (other than the GJohn stuff) comes from Paul and the
      unknown author of "Hebrews" (Barnabas?). So, although this type of material
      is early, it appears to have been unknown to the original authors of GThom.
      Or would you disagree?

      Mike

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    • sdavies@miseri.edu
      ... (which ... - and ... specified ... material ... GThom. ... Nothing after 37 was found at Oxy. 77b/c is attached to saying 30 at Oxy evidently because the
      Message 2 of 3 , Jul 19, 1999
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        > Steve Davies:
        > >...77a is arguably the most anciently attested of all the Thomas
        > >sayings, fitting as it does with that host of pre-gospel "Jesus
        > >the Pantocrator" material, albeit first-person and not third-person.
        >
        > Interesting, then, that 77a doesn't seem to fit with the rest. 77b&c
        (which
        > are of a piece) are in the POxy fragments, but not in the same place
        - and
        > 77a isn't with them. The "pre-Gospel" Pantocrator material you
        specified
        > in another note (other than the GJohn stuff) comes from Paul and the
        > unknown author of "Hebrews" (Barnabas?). So, although this type of
        material
        > is early, it appears to have been unknown to the original authors of
        GThom.
        > Or would you disagree?
        >
        > Mike

        Nothing after 37 was found at Oxy. 77b/c is attached to saying 30 at Oxy
        evidently because the "I am with him" bit reminded somebody of the
        presence-
        everywhere motif. Later on the "presence-everywhere" motif seemed more
        useful
        commenting on the pantocrator idea of 77a.

        77 reminds me of Wisdom of Solomon 7:21-25

        "I learnt it all, hidden 22 or manifest, for I was taught by he
        whose skill made all things, wisdom. For in wisdom there is a spirit
        intelligent and holy, unique in its kind yet made up of many parts,
        subtle, free-moving, lucid, spotless, clear, 23 invulnerable, loving
        what is good, eager, unhindered, beneficent, kindly towards men,
        steadfast,
        unerring, touched by care, all-powerful, all-surveying, 24 and
        permeating all intelligent, pure, and delicate spirits. For wisdom
        moves more easily than motion itself, she pervades and permeates
        25 all things"

        I guess one of the great Mysteries is how people came to claim that
        Jesus created everything. It has to be because there was an existing
        idea of Wisdom creating everything and then the Son came to be
        identified with Wisdom. The redeemer Son doesn't seem to be Wisdom
        in the Odes, I don't think. But at least there you have them both.

        My guess is that the Odes perspective was what Paul was busy persecuting
        in the churches of Christ in Judea. I wonder where they got the idea
        to use Jesus as a term? Sure caused a lot of confusion, didn't it,
        when that usage led to folks thinking that Jesus Christ and Jesus
        the Wisdomcynic were the same guy. Thanks to Mark, I suppose.

        Steve Davies



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      • Mike Grondin
        ... What? Persecute those dreamy-eyed, spaced-out Ode-ees ? Nah - they wouldn t ve been worth the whips to flog em with. Mike ... eGroups.com home:
        Message 3 of 3 , Jul 19, 1999
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          At 01:41 PM 07/19/99 -0700, sdavies@... wrote:
          >My guess is that the Odes perspective was what Paul was busy persecuting
          >in the churches of Christ in Judea.

          What? Persecute those dreamy-eyed, spaced-out "Ode-ees"? Nah - they
          wouldn't've been worth the whips to flog 'em with. <g>

          Mike

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