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[gthomas] Re: Logion 12

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  • Paul Miller
    12 The disciples said to Jesus, We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader? Jesus said to them, No matter where you are you are to go to
    Message 1 of 3 , Dec 28, 1998
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      12 The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who
      will be our leader?"
      Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the
      Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

      Jack wrote:
      Logion 12 was voted black or gray by the JS and I thoroughly
      disagree. It seems to me that the historicity of brother James
      taking over the driver's seat is a good indication that Logion
      12 was spoken by Jesus. ----------------------------------

      After finishing Painter's book "Just James" awhile back I can agree that the
      saying is early. Antonio Jerez on Crosstalk argued once that since the
      Gnostics highly regarded the figure of James in their theology that logion
      12 was late. It seems more likely that the 2nd century Gnostics were aware
      of James early pivotal role in the church.
      This logion seems to possibly tie the Thomasine group in with the Jerusalem
      christians instead of them having any connection with the Pauline group.
      Can anyone run down what the Jesus Seminar's rationale was for voting black
      on this?

      Paul Miller


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    • Jack Kilmon
      ... I did discuss this with Mahlon Smith who said that the JS reasoning was along the same lines as Antonio...albeit Mahlon disagreed if I am not mistaken..but
      Message 2 of 3 , Dec 28, 1998
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        Paul Miller wrote:

        > 12 The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who
        > will be our leader?"
        > Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the
        > Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."
        >
        > Jack wrote:
        > Logion 12 was voted black or gray by the JS and I thoroughly
        > disagree. It seems to me that the historicity of brother James
        > taking over the driver's seat is a good indication that Logion
        > 12 was spoken by Jesus. ----------------------------------
        >
        > After finishing Painter's book "Just James" awhile back I can agree that the
        > saying is early. Antonio Jerez on Crosstalk argued once that since the
        > Gnostics highly regarded the figure of James in their theology that logion
        > 12 was late. It seems more likely that the 2nd century Gnostics were aware
        > of James early pivotal role in the church.
        > This logion seems to possibly tie the Thomasine group in with the Jerusalem
        > christians instead of them having any connection with the Pauline group.
        > Can anyone run down what the Jesus Seminar's rationale was for voting black
        > on this?

        I did discuss this with Mahlon Smith who said that the JS reasoning
        was along the same lines as Antonio...albeit Mahlon disagreed if
        I am not mistaken..but the vote was black.
        Given the Thomasine community's origin in Syria, probably
        Edessa, and the ties to the Jerusalem community..and given the
        Synopticist's agenda to delegate Jesus' siblings and direct
        disciples to obscurity...I accept 12 as genuine. The evidence
        of Ya'akov haTsaddik seeming to appear out of nowhere to
        ramrod the Nazarenes is strong that this saying is genuine.

        Jack


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