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[gthomas] King James? bar Joseph chutzpah

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  • Jon Peter
    Am trying to determine the sense of the idiom sky and earth in exegesis of GThom Saying 12: (12) The disciples said to Jesus, We know that you will depart
    Message 1 of 2 , May 6, 1999
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      Am trying to determine the sense of the idiom 'sky and earth' in exegesis of
      GThom Saying 12:

      (12) The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you will depart from us. Who
      is to be our leader?"

      Jesus said to them, "Wherever you are, you are to go to Ya'akov the
      Righteous, for whose sake the sky and earth came into being."


      Several possibilities come to mind. One is that sky & earth *being created
      for* might allude to an archaic idea about ANE priest-kingship. -- i.e., God
      created heaven or sky and earth for Himself (actually). But He is
      represented in his creation by a king, His personal extension.

      The implication of Saying 12 would be, then, that James is comparable to a
      king.

      As possibly pertinent facts, we have a hint of some restoration-type events
      associated with Jesus' family, in birth narrative parallels with Abraham,
      Sarah, Isaac, Jacob etc. who were similarly dynastic for ancient Israel. In
      the updated revival, Jesus' predecessor was his cousin the Baptist ("the
      greatest human being who ever lived"--Mt 11.11). Jesus' successor was
      Ya'akov, who was followed (per Hegessipus) by Simeon, then by Judas in the
      early 100s CE. All were apparently cousins or brothers.

      So, you have five clan members attempting to launch a leadership institution
      for a period of 3/4 of a century. This makes me wonder if the family agenda
      might have been the establishment of an alternative royal dynasty right from
      day one, even while Jesus, John and all were alive.

      Note also Jesus' and John's mutual admiration statements which are sort of
      reminiscent of prophet Samuel's anointing of Israel's first king. And again,
      their birth narrative stories have HB parallels.

      Checking a few other places in NHC, 'Heaven (or sky) and earth' is used in
      the most obvious sense as 'the Cosmos', and also, in another Thomas saying
      (91) 'h & e' referrs to the sign-system beliefs of astral religion, i.e.,
      'as above, so below,' celestial events paralleled on earth.

      If anyone has thoughts on 'sky and earth' meaning vis-à-vis James or
      otherwise, I'd be interested.

      Regards,

      Jon


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    • Jim Bauer
      ... As above, so below is Hermetic in nature, ancestral of alchemy and even, in the case of Newtonian alchemy, what led him to believe that gravity affects
      Message 2 of 2 , May 6, 1999
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        On Thu, 6 May 1999, Jon Peter wrote:

        > Checking a few other places in NHC, 'Heaven (or sky) and earth' is used in
        > the most obvious sense as 'the Cosmos', and also, in another Thomas saying
        > (91) 'h & e' referrs to the sign-system beliefs of astral religion, i.e.,
        > 'as above, so below,' celestial events paralleled on earth.

        "As above, so below" is Hermetic in nature, ancestral of alchemy and even,
        in the case of Newtonian alchemy, what led him to believe that gravity
        affects things on the earth and sky, both. As Jung says, "We are moving
        thru the dark waters where gnosis is in fact rooted. The message of
        Christianity is gnosis and the unconscious compensation is gnosis to a
        still higher degree." This is the most profound thing the man ever said.
        Yet many gnostic scholars are unaware of alchemy, a lot of historians of
        science are unfamiliar with gnostic texts, &c.

        Of course, neither Jesus nor the author of Thomas were aware of alchemy,
        but this particular variant on "earth and sky" remains archetypal.
        >
        > If anyone has thoughts on 'sky and earth' meaning vis-�-vis James or
        > otherwise, I'd be interested.
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Jon
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/gthomas
        > http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications
        >
        >


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