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[gthomas] Re: Logion 12

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  • Paul Miller
    12 The disciples said to Jesus, We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader? Jesus said to them, No matter where you are you are to go to
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 28 12:16 PM
      12 The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who
      will be our leader?"
      Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the
      Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

      Jack wrote:
      Logion 12 was voted black or gray by the JS and I thoroughly
      disagree. It seems to me that the historicity of brother James
      taking over the driver's seat is a good indication that Logion
      12 was spoken by Jesus. ----------------------------------

      After finishing Painter's book "Just James" awhile back I can agree that the
      saying is early. Antonio Jerez on Crosstalk argued once that since the
      Gnostics highly regarded the figure of James in their theology that logion
      12 was late. It seems more likely that the 2nd century Gnostics were aware
      of James early pivotal role in the church.
      This logion seems to possibly tie the Thomasine group in with the Jerusalem
      christians instead of them having any connection with the Pauline group.
      Can anyone run down what the Jesus Seminar's rationale was for voting black
      on this?

      Paul Miller


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    • Jack Kilmon
      Logion 12 was voted black or gray by the JS and I thoroughly disagree. It seems to me that the historicity of brother James taking over the driver s seat is a
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 28 1:31 PM
        Logion 12 was voted black or gray by the JS and I thoroughly
        disagree. It seems to me that the historicity of brother James
        taking over the driver's seat is a good indication that Logion
        12 was spoken by Jesus. The probability is that brother
        Jimmy was with Jesus all along rather than getting a wake-up
        call after the crucifixion.

        Jack.


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      • Jack Kilmon
        ... I did discuss this with Mahlon Smith who said that the JS reasoning was along the same lines as Antonio...albeit Mahlon disagreed if I am not mistaken..but
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 28 3:56 PM
          Paul Miller wrote:

          > 12 The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who
          > will be our leader?"
          > Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the
          > Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."
          >
          > Jack wrote:
          > Logion 12 was voted black or gray by the JS and I thoroughly
          > disagree. It seems to me that the historicity of brother James
          > taking over the driver's seat is a good indication that Logion
          > 12 was spoken by Jesus. ----------------------------------
          >
          > After finishing Painter's book "Just James" awhile back I can agree that the
          > saying is early. Antonio Jerez on Crosstalk argued once that since the
          > Gnostics highly regarded the figure of James in their theology that logion
          > 12 was late. It seems more likely that the 2nd century Gnostics were aware
          > of James early pivotal role in the church.
          > This logion seems to possibly tie the Thomasine group in with the Jerusalem
          > christians instead of them having any connection with the Pauline group.
          > Can anyone run down what the Jesus Seminar's rationale was for voting black
          > on this?

          I did discuss this with Mahlon Smith who said that the JS reasoning
          was along the same lines as Antonio...albeit Mahlon disagreed if
          I am not mistaken..but the vote was black.
          Given the Thomasine community's origin in Syria, probably
          Edessa, and the ties to the Jerusalem community..and given the
          Synopticist's agenda to delegate Jesus' siblings and direct
          disciples to obscurity...I accept 12 as genuine. The evidence
          of Ya'akov haTsaddik seeming to appear out of nowhere to
          ramrod the Nazarenes is strong that this saying is genuine.

          Jack


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        • james gomez
          DeConick in “The Original Gospel of Thomas (2002:167)says Thomas remains a perplexing gospel for a number of reasons. For one,because it contains several
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 16
            DeConick in “The Original Gospel of Thomas" (2002:167) says Thomas remains a perplexing gospel for a number of reasons. For one, because it contains several logia which seem contradictory. Of special interest is her mention of Th12:
            " . . . sayings which seem to contradict themselves. For instance, the gospel lauds the authority and legitimacy of James (L. 12), the first bishop of Jerusalem and leader of conservative Christian-Judaism, while at the same time applauding the "true circumcision in spirit" and rejecting physical circumcision: ‘If it [physical circumcision] were beneficial, their father would beget them from their mother already circumcised’ (L. 53).”
            First, in order explicate, assuming GTh is consistent throughout, we may infer that the intended meaning must reside at another interpretive level, because taken literally it’s a contradiction. One way to get around this apparent contradiction is to take the name “James” as a symbol for “Israel” rather than as the name of the first bishop of Jerusalem. This is justified by recalling that in Gen. (32:27-28) Jacob (=James) is given the name of Israel after his “struggle with God,” so the name “James” may allude to this equation (i.e., James=Jacob=Israel). Further, in Matthew (15:24) Jesus says his mission is to the lost sheep of the house (=Hekhalot) of Israel, so it is they he has instructed. His advice to the disciples can now be translated back into Th12 as: "No matter where you are, go to the righteous of Israel [who he has instructed, if guidance is needed].” At this point the contradiction disappears. Coincidently, we might also note that the logion numbered Th12 also correlates with the 12 sons/tribes of Israel, symbolically in this context, the righteous followers of Jesus.
            This maneuver for handling inconsistencies and apparent contradictions in scripture was not uncommon. Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 B.C.E. — 40 C.E) made use of it in this way and says the allegorical/symbolic interpretation of scripture was practiced in Palestinian rabbinical schools. One current method is referred to as “Pardes,” consists of peshat (literal), remez (allegoric/symbolic), derash (comparative) and deresh (mystical). In the above short excursion into an attempted exegesis of Th12, the first three were used.
            It is interesting that the acronym for this method is called “Pardes” (=paradise), or as a Thomasine might have put it, as the path taken towards that place “where the Light came into being.” In contrast, the Thomasine approach appears to have had three exegetical approaches, if we follow the stratification of Th2 hypothesized by B. Lincoln (1977:70):
            “Jesus said: [0] Let him who seeks, not cease seeking until he finds, [1] and when he finds, he will be troubled, [2] and when he has been troubled, he will marvel [3] and he will reign over the All.”
            Those at the rank of “the seeker” he says were not yet part of the Th-community, so the actual community would have consisted of three divisions in ascending order. It’s assumed that this order was partly based on the interpretive level of the initiate of the words of Jesus, so that entrance into the Thomasine community also became equivalent to entering into the house (=hekhalot) of Israel, metaphorically a new “heaven and earth” as referred to in Th12.
            These three divisions can be associated with the three ascending levels in described in Th13 and Th23 and may have been linked to the image of the Temple of Jerusalem, where again is found three ascending levels of holiness within the inner court. Schematized in table form, the forgoing can be connected as follows:
             
            Level of meaning
            Th2
            Th23
            TH13
            [L1] Literal understanding
            "Who find and are troubled"
            One from a thousand
            Moral stage
            [L2] Allegorical and symbolic
            "Who are troubled and marvel"
            Two from ten thousand
            Wisdom stage
            [L3] Apophasis
            “Who reign over the All”
            The “Single One”
            Transcendent stage
             
            In the above table L3, the apophatic level of meaning appears to be required to fit the response by Thomas to Jesus’ question: "Compare me to someone, tell me whom I am like." He replies by saying: “Master, What you are like is unutterable [transcendent stage].” Whereas Matthew’s response in L2 fits “You are like a wise philosopher [wisdom stage]; and Peter’s response in L1: “You are like a righteous angel [moral stage]” as a requirement for entry.
            Comments?
            -james
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
          • Jim Clark
            Rather than lauding circumcision of spirit, he says it has become completely profitable. I take that as to say the faith the church is selling is cut off from
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 16
              Rather than lauding circumcision of spirit, he says it has become completely profitable. I take that as to say the faith the church is selling is cut off from the spirit, filling coffers. He denounced it. My thoughts anyway.

              [James Clark]
            • james gomez
              Thank you for your reply.Perhaps if we put aside “circumcision of spirit” for amoment and explain DeConick’s point purely in terms of physical
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 17
                Thank you for your reply.
                Perhaps if we put aside “circumcision of spirit” for a moment and explain DeConick’s point purely in terms of physical circumcision her idea could be made clearer. It is documented from sources outside of GTh that James, as the first Bishop of Jerusalem and leader of conservative Christian-Judaism supported physical circumcision. Apparently it was a point of contention between himself and Paul. This is the same James which she thinks GTh lauds in Th12.
                But she finds that in Th53.2, understood literally, physical circumcision is clearly not supported:
                “If it [physical circumcision] were beneficial, their father would beget them from their mother already circumcised.”
                As a result we are left with an apparent contradiction.
                -james


                On Monday, January 16, 2017 9:17 PM, "Jim Clark jimboclar@... [gthomas]" <gthomas@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                 
                Rather than lauding circumcision of spirit, he says it has become completely profitable. I take that as to say the faith the church is selling is cut off from the spirit, filling coffers. He denounced it. My thoughts anyway.

                [James Clark]


              • Jack Kilmon
                Hi James: I think we have to first clarify that Ya’qub bar Yahosef (Tzaddika), brother of Yeshua, was not a “bishop” in the Christian sense of the word
                Message 7 of 7 , Jan 20
                  Hi James:

                  I think we have to first clarify that Ya’qub bar Yahosef (Tzaddika), brother of Yeshua, was not a “bishop” in the Christian sense of the word but since logion 12 is accurate either if uttered by Yeshua or, more likely, inserted in Thomas sometime in the latter quarter of the 1st century because it was accurate. Ya’qub WAS the leader of the Jerusalem qehal of talmidda and family (as the oldest surviving son) and I suspect was conservative but a pious Jew insisting on circumcision cannot be ruled as conservative. Ya’qub was not a Christian and was highly revered prior to his death and long afterward. Neither Yeshua nor any of the disciples were Christians. Jews were circumcised at infancy and had no memory of it. Gentiles (Christians) would have to have been circumcised as adults when the process was more traumatic and dangerous.

                  Logion 53 is definitely not Yeshuine in origin but it does reflect the Gentile fear of a later Christian community looking for excuses not to do it.



                  Best,

                  Jack



                  ἐξ ἱστορίας ἐὰν ἄρῃς τὴν ἀλήθειαν, τὸ καταλειπόμενον αὐτῆς ἀνωφελὲς γίνεται διήγημα



                  "if you take truth from history what is left is but an idle tale"

                  Polybius [XII.12.3]





                  From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com]
                  Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 2:48 AM
                  To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [GTh] Logion 12








                  Thank you for your reply.

                  Perhaps if we put aside “circumcision of spirit” for a moment and explain DeConick’s point purely in terms of physical circumcision her idea could be made clearer. It is documented from sources outside of GTh that James, as the first Bishop of Jerusalem and leader of conservative Christian-Judaism supported physical circumcision. Apparently it was a point of contention between himself and Paul. This is the same James which she thinks GTh lauds in Th12.

                  But she finds that in Th53.2, understood literally, physical circumcision is clearly not supported:

                  “If it [physical circumcision] were beneficial, their father would beget them from their mother already circumcised.”

                  As a result we are left with an apparent contradiction.

                  -james



                  On Monday, January 16, 2017 9:17 PM, "Jim Clark jimboclar@... [gthomas]" <gthomas@yahoogroups.com> wrote:





                  Rather than lauding circumcision of spirit, he says it has become completely profitable. I take that as to say the faith the church is selling is cut off from the spirit, filling coffers. He denounced it. My thoughts anyway.

                  [James Clark]












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