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[gthomas] Re: Saying 97

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  • Paul Miller
    But life is a long journey and it is easy to slowly lose that KOG that you had as a child..leaking out bit by bit as you move along....but if you could again
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 28, 1998
      But life is a long journey and it is easy to slowly lose that KOG that you
      had as a child..leaking out bit by bit as you move along....but if you
      could again become as a little child...well, you get the picture.

      Jack---------------------------------------

      I like this interpretation. Some of the logion are like Rorschach tests.
      Whats inside the person meshes with the logion and you get interpretation.

      Paul Miller



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    • Jack Kilmon
      ... I believe this is a genuine Yeshuine saying (regardless of the JS). Jesus variously had said that the KOG was like a thief in the night and that the KOG
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 28, 1998
        Paul Miller wrote:

        > Cliff Hammond brought up saying 97 in a recent post.
        >
        > 97 Jesus said, The [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who was carrying a
        > [jar] full of meal. While she was walking along [a] distant road, the handle
        > of the jar broke and the meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She
        > didn't know it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her house,
        > she put the jar down and discovered that it was empty.
        >
        > Macarius of Syria tells a similar story of a bag of sand that is leaking out
        > through a tiny hole in the bag. This parable of the jar and meal, except for
        > this one similarity, is known in the Gospel of Thomas only in early
        > christian writings.
        > I believe the Jesus Seminar gave this parable a red or pink rating but I
        > don't have the Five Gospels in front of me so I'm working from memory. What
        > is the motivation of the author of this saying? What meaning is he trying to
        > get across? How can this saying be placed in a historical context? Why is
        > the Fathers Kingdom like the woman instead of just the jar of meal that
        > becomes empty?

        I believe this is a genuine Yeshuine saying (regardless of the JS). Jesus
        variously had said that the KOG was like a thief in the night and that
        the KOG was here and all around..and in you, and that Children were
        of the KOG.
        But life is a long journey and it is easy to slowly lose that KOG that you
        had as a child..leaking out bit by bit as you move along....but if you
        could again become as a little child...well, you get the picture.

        Jack


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      • Cliff Hammond
        Or... that we are the woman, the jar, the meal, the path, the journey, [the birds of the field who eat the meal] and the stark realization that emptiness is
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 29, 1998
          Or... that we are the woman, the jar, the meal, the path, the journey, [the birds of the field who eat the meal] and the stark realization that emptiness is form and form is within the emptiness - That the Kingdom of God *is* the context and its contents are "just as they are."

          -cliff

          Paul Miller wrote:

           
          But life is a long journey and it is easy to slowly lose that KOG that you
          had as a child..leaking out bit by bit as you move along....but if you
          could again become as a little child...well, you get the picture.
          
          Jack---------------------------------------
          
          I like this interpretation. Some of the logion are like Rorschach tests.
          Whats inside the person meshes with the logion and you get interpretation.
          
          Paul Miller

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          --
          _______________________________________________________________________________

          97  Jesus said, the [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was empty.

          -Gospel of Thomas <http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html>
          _______________________________________________________________________________

          http://www.angelfire.com/tx/cliffhammond/IntroPage.html
          mailto:wycliffe@...
           


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        • ekklesia@worldnet.att.net
          On the other hand.....I like the words of Brett Michaels from the rock group Poison: I wish I didn t know now what I didn t know then ......perhaps the KOG
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 29, 1998
            On the other hand.....I like the words of Brett Michaels from the rock group Poison:
            "I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then"......perhaps the KOG would
            be more "at hand" and more "within" and more relevant, and less diluted and distant.....

            Shalom,
            Lisa Grant

            Cliff Hammond wrote:

             Or... that we are the woman, the jar, the meal, the path, the journey, [the birds of the field who eat the meal] and the stark realization that emptiness is form and form is within the emptiness - That the Kingdom of God *is* the context and its contents are "just as they are."

            -cliff

            Paul Miller wrote:

             
            But life is a long journey and it is easy to slowly lose that KOG that you
            had as a child..leaking out bit by bit as you move along....but if you
            could again become as a little child...well, you get the picture.
            
            Jack---------------------------------------
            
            I like this interpretation. Some of the logion are like Rorschach tests.
            Whats inside the person meshes with the logion and you get interpretation.
            
            Paul Miller

            For the absolute lowest price on Computer Hardware:
            CLICK HERE!

            eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/gthomas
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            --
            _______________________________________________________________________________

            97  Jesus said, the [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was empty.

            -Gospel of Thomas <http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html>
            _______________________________________________________________________________

            http://www.angelfire.com/tx/cliffhammond/IntroPage.html
            mailto:wycliffe@...


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          • Paul Miller
            Or... that we are the woman, the jar, the meal, the path, the journey, [the birds of the field who eat the meal] and the stark realization that emptiness is
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 29, 1998
              Or... that we are the woman, the jar, the meal, the path, the journey, [the birds of the field who eat the meal] and the stark realization that emptiness is form and form is within the emptiness - That the Kingdom of God *is* the context and its contents are "just as they are."

              -cliff ------------------------------------------

              Or that the woman sets the jar down looks inside and says "Hey!! What happened to all my meal!" :)

               

              Paul Miller

               

               


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            • Paul Miller
              ......perhaps the KOG would be more at hand and more within and more relevant, and less diluted and distant..... Shalom, Lisa Grant
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 29, 1998
                "......perhaps the KOG would
                be more "at hand" and more "within" and more relevant, and less diluted and distant.....

                Shalom,
                Lisa Grant -------------------------------------------

                Nice to hear a woman's view on logion 97, after all the KOG is like a WOMAN who was carrying a jar full of meal. Lisa welcome to this young e mail list.

                 

                Paul Miller

                 


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              • Stevan Davies
                ... I m glad you included the saying. It s always easier to discuss things when they re included in the email. Thoughts: As usual in Thomas the Kingdom is like
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 30, 1998
                  > 97 Jesus said, the [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who
                  > was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking
                  > along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the
                  > meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know
                  > it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her
                  > house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was
                  > empty.

                  I'm glad you included the saying. It's always easier to discuss
                  things when they're included in the email.

                  Thoughts:

                  As usual in Thomas the Kingdom is like a person. The
                  woman is not "at fault" here. Repeatedly (in a rather Markan
                  reiterative fashion) we hear that she did not know what was
                  happening.
                  She didn't break the jar, it just broke.
                  < She didn't know it;
                  > she hadn't noticed a problem.
                  > When she reached her
                  > house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was
                  > empty.

                  It's an event of discovery though, like the pearl and treasure
                  and fish. Instead of "Oh, wow!" I suppose the reaction would
                  be "Oh, damn!" Instead of "get rid of everything else and keep
                  what you discover" the response has to be "go do it all over
                  again." But the common element remains the shock of
                  discovery. So the kingdom is like a person who has that
                  sort of shock of discovery experience.

                  Steve

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                • Mike Grondin
                  People - please do not copy the entire message you re responding to! I know it s easier, but it s not necessary, and it only makes more work for the reader
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 30, 1998
                    People - please do not copy the entire message you're responding to! I know
                    it's easier, but it's not necessary, and it only makes more work for the
                    reader having to peruse the whole thing. This is especially true now that
                    we're getting advertising tacked onto our messages, and now that some folks
                    are sending HTML stuff. So, please, just cut and paste the part of the
                    message you're responding to. Thanks.

                    Mike
                    ------------------------------------
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                    http://www.geocities.com/athens/9068

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                  • ekklesia@worldnet.att.net
                    thanks for the warm welcome! ... eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/gthomas Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 30, 1998
                      thanks for the warm welcome!

                      Paul Miller wrote:

                       "......perhaps the KOG would
                      be more "at hand" and more "within" and more relevant, and less diluted and distant.....

                      Shalom,
                      Lisa Grant -------------------------------------------

                      Nice to hear a woman's view on logion 97, after all the KOG is like a WOMAN who was carrying a jar full of meal. Lisa welcome to this young e mail list.
                       
                       

                      Paul Miller
                       
                       


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                    • ekklesia@worldnet.att.net
                      okay already! ... eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/gthomas Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 30, 1998
                        okay already!

                        Mike Grondin wrote:

                        > People - please do not copy the entire message you're responding to!
                        > [snip]

                        > So, please, just cut and paste the part of the
                        > message you're responding to. Thanks.
                        >
                        > Mike
                        >


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                      • Mats Winther
                        Concerning logion 97 I would like to point out the saying from the Hebrew (Ebionite) Gospel: The Saviour said: Now my mother, the holy spirit, took me by one
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jan 10, 1999
                          Concerning logion 97 I would like to point out the saying from the
                          Hebrew (Ebionite) Gospel: The Saviour said: "Now my mother, the holy
                          spirit, took me by one of my hairs and carried me to the high mountain
                          Tabor."
                          This tallies with an interpretation of the jar as a person of light
                          who is carried by the holy spirit (i.e. a woman who is the mother).
                          This may also point at a possibility that Jesus understood the holy
                          spirit as a person of feminine gender.
                          I have pondered the question of why the woman is unconscious of the
                          fact that the jar is leaking. The leaking can be understood as the
                          suffering of a person of light. The leaking is when his blood (i.e.
                          the meal) pours down on earth. Jesus may have experienced his life as
                          continous suffering. Although he was securely carried by the mother,
                          this female person must have been unconscious of the suffering,
                          otherwise she would take measures to stop the bleeding and mend the
                          wound. Why this unconsciousness must exist is yet another mystery in
                          the divine drama. But this may at least enhance the understanding of
                          the suffering of Christ on the cross and his lamentation "...My God,
                          my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mat 27:46).

                          ---------------------
                          I'm sorry that I repeat myself from here on but I want to repeat some
                          of my views on logion 97 for new participants:
                          We can look upon it within the context of the sayings where he speaks
                          about the light: (Logion 24) "...There is light within a person of
                          light, and it shines on the whole world. If it does not shine, it is
                          dark." (Logion 77) "..I am the light that is over all things. I am
                          all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

                          So the meal may be understood as more or less the same as the light
                          which a person of light shines on the world during his lifetime. One
                          can understand this as the Son returning to the Father after his
                          mission on earth. So a jar spilling meal over the world has a
                          symbolical resemblance to a lamp that "spills" light over the world.
                          The latter conception occurs in the Gospel as sayings of Jesus e.g.
                          Luk 11:36: "If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no
                          part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright
                          shining of a candle doth give thee light."

                          What seems to occur is that a person of light "breaks" and because of
                          this leaks the white light upon the world. This, of course, is true
                          about Christ. He suffered while on earth, and while crucified he was
                          penetrated with a lance so that his blood poured out on earth. The
                          notion of breaking is obvious in the case of the breaking of the bread
                          (to Jesus a very important conception). In John 6:51 Jesus says: "I am
                          the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this
                          bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my
                          flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
                          A loaf of bread can be seen as a receptacle of meal. The loaf must be
                          broken and distributed to the people. This is similar to the breaking
                          of the jar which causes the spiritual meal to leak out upon the world.
                          But the breaking entails suffering. It seems to imply that a wound has
                          to be inflicted in order for the light to leak out from a
                          light-person.

                          What is very curious in this parable is that the woman carries on
                          unconscious of the fact that the jar is leaking. This may be how Jesus
                          experienced his life as a person of light. He feels like a receptacle
                          of spirit that continously pours forth like a fountain of light. But
                          in some way he is passive. He is carried by the unconscious woman and
                          has no other choice than to carry out his Father's will by suffering
                          and spreading the grace of God upon earth. So the unconscious woman
                          then, could be interpreted as the unconscious psyche. The immense
                          power of the unconscious is carrying him through life and takes him
                          back to his Father's house. This is true about any person of light.

                          I think that saying 97 is an amplification of this conception of the
                          person that shines light from within. This light is food for the soul
                          i.e. meal. But in this parable Jesus expands on the subject and
                          introduces the element of suffering (breaking) and also how he himself
                          feels as a person of light, i.e. that he is carried by the unconscious
                          woman. So in a way he feels like a child who is carried by his mother.
                          Perhaps he wants to convey his own complete feeling of security i.e.
                          how a light-person will feel when two becomes one. And when the river
                          of living water finally ceases to flow from his interior he will
                          arrive at his Fathers house. But the Father is the Great Spirit
                          himself, i.e. the source of all rivers of living water.

                          We also know from depth psychology of a process called
                          'individuation'. When this is invoked the individual has the
                          experience of being carried by a strong current towards a goal which
                          have been denoted 'the self'. The carrying current is called 'the
                          collective unconscious' and is with men personalized as the feminine
                          figure of the anima. So, psychologically speaking, logion 97 is
                          comprehensible and must have been expressed by a person that had
                          experienced these things. He actually talks about this unconscious
                          woman who is the carrier of the jar that spreads meal over the world.
                          These symbols are very potent and to a certain extent comprehensible
                          too. With normal persons, when their candles go out they simply die
                          and vanish. However, Jesus in logion 97 probably tells us that persons
                          who have become "persons of light" are carried away to their Father's
                          house. So their candles do not rest on the ground. They are carried
                          away and when their candles go out and they die they arrive at the
                          eternal life at their Father's house.


                          Mats Winther





















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