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Re: [GTh] Stratification of Q

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  • Mark M. Mattison
    Bruce, Have you checked out this PDF? http://www.tonyburke.ca/wp-content/uploads/Burton-Macks-Q-Text.pdf -Mark Mattison
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 6, 2012
      Bruce,

      Have you checked out this PDF?

      http://www.tonyburke.ca/wp-content/uploads/Burton-Macks-Q-Text.pdf

      -Mark Mattison
    • Ian Brown
      Hmmmm, looks like my message didn t make it through cyber space. Here it is again. Hi Bruce,   Hi Bruce,   I also wanted to have Q’s stratification
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 6, 2012
        Hmmmm, looks like my message didn't make it through cyber space. Here it is again.

        Hi Bruce,
         
        Hi Bruce,
         
        I also wanted to have Q’s stratification (according to Kloppenborg) next to the Thomas parallels, so I wrote them into the back of my Q/Thomas Reader.
         
        Q1 Parallels
        Q11:9//TH 2:1                      Q12:2//TH5:2           Q11:1-4//TH6:1-2  
        Q12:2//TH 6:3                      Q6:41-42//TH26:1-2
        Q 12:3//TH33:1                   Q6:39//TH34                        Q12:22-30//TH36              
        Q 6:43-44a//TH43:3                       Q6:44B//TH45:1      Q6:45a//TH45:2
        Q6:45b//TH45:3                  Q6:20b//TH54         Q14:26-27//TH55
        Q6:22//TH58                                    Q6:22-23//TH68:1-2, 69:1
        Q6:21a//TH69:2                  Q10:2//TH73                        Q9:58//TH86:1-2Q11:9//TH92:1
        Q6:34-35a//TH95:1-2         Q14:26-27//TH101:1-3
        Q15:3-7//TH107:1-3
         
        Q2 Parallels
        Q12:51-53//TH16:1-4        Q10:23-24//TH17               Q12:39//TH21:3
        Q11:33//TH33:2-3              Q11:21-22//TH35:1-2        Q10:23-24//TH38:1
        Q11:52//TH39:1-2              Q19:26//TH41:1-2              Q12:10//TH44:1-3
        Q7:28//TH46:1                    Q14:15-24//TH62:1-12      Q7:24-26//TH78:1-3
        Q11:39-41//TH89:1-2        Q13:20-21//TH96:1-2        Q12:39//TH103
         
        I have Q16:17//TH 11:1 as a Q3 parallel, but not sure if I wrote that wrong. Also, don’t have anything written at Q16:13//TH47:2. I’ll try to find those tonight.

        Ian Brown


        From: Ian Brown <ianbrown6796@...>
        To: "gthomas@yahoogroups.com" <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2012 4:29:15 PM
        Subject: Re: [GTh] Stratification of Q

         



      • E Bruce Brooks
        To: GThos On: Kloppenborg s G1-3 From: Bruce Thanks to all three respondents for their help with identifying the Kloppenborg layers. On cross-checking (Ian
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 7, 2012
          To: GThos
          On: Kloppenborg's G1-3
          From: Bruce

          Thanks to all three respondents for their help with identifying the
          Kloppenborg layers. On cross-checking (Ian Brown's list and the one cited by
          Mark Mattison were visually the easiest to use) I seem to find the following
          discrepancies:

          Mack G1 (bold); Ian G2:

          Q13:20-21 = Th 96:1-2
          Q14:15-24 = Th 64:1-12 (not listed by Ian)

          Mack G2 (regular type); Ian G1:

          Q15:3-7 = Th 107:1-3

          Does someone care to adjudicate?

          Thanks,

          Bruce

          E Bruce Brooks
          Warring States Project
          University of Massachusetts at Amherst
        • E Bruce Brooks
          To: GThomas On: Kloppenborg s Q Stratification From: Bruce Perhaps, having looked into The Formation of Q with indifferent result, I might reply to my own
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 7, 2012
            To: GThomas
            On: Kloppenborg's Q Stratification
            From: Bruce

            Perhaps, having looked into "The Formation of Q" with indifferent result, I
            might reply to my own request for clarification of three passages which
            different respondents assign to different Kloppenborg strata.

            My response is that perhaps it doesn't matter. However one classifies the
            three passages, it seems abundantly clear from the undisputed others that,
            if Kloppenborg's 3-layer stratification in time is correct, then the Thomas
            material (if both stratified and linear) does not follow it. That is, the
            "sapiential" material does not cluster in low-numbered Thomas sayings, nor
            does the "apocalyptic" material cluster in high-numbered ones. So if (1)
            there was a Q, and if (2) it had early and late layers as K suggests, then
            (3) Thomas draws equally on the whole thing, and is thus post-Q3.

            This is another way of saying that Thomas, as a whole and in its present
            condition, is post-Synoptic. I put it this way to reserve the possibility
            that, as DeConick and others have proposed, Thomas itself is stratified.
            This opens the possibility that though part, perhaps much, of Thomas is
            post-Synoptic (meaning in this case, post-Mt/Lk), other parts might be
            earlier.

            NOTE ON TERMINOLOGY

            Those of us who disbelieve in Q have a problem in referring to this
            material. To use the term "Q" merely reifies that theory, so it would be
            better to have a noncommittal name. Since the root of the idea refers to
            material common to Mt and Lk but not in Mk (admittedly, that definition has
            been subsequently expanded), and since on most people's understanding these
            texts are post-70, and thus also post-Pauline, I propose the term "P" as
            reminiscent of the phrase "post-Pauline."

            If some parts of this material had earlier origins, that could always be
            demonstrated. Kloppenborg, for instance, could make his argument that the
            sapiential parts of the Mt/Lk material actually are earlier than Mt/Lk. But
            the initial presumption would be that all of it arose in the post-Markan
            period defined by Matthew and Luke.

            Bruce

            E Bruce Brooks
            Warring States Project
            University of Massachusetts at Amherst
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