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[gthomas] Re: Pachomius the Enochian?

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  • Mike Grondin
    ... Thanks, Sam. This is really a first-rate argument against the initial inferences I attempted to draw from Theodore s answer to the philosopher s riddle.
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 4 11:17 PM
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      At 01:30 AM 04/05/99 -0500, Sam Thrope wrote:
      >If St. Pachomius and his followers were Christians (as I believed they were),
      >would not acceptance of the entire TN''Ch be a prerequisite to the
      >acceptance of Jesus' preaching? Even if the NT had not been canonized by
      >350-400 (the date I believe you cited in your email), with its many
      >references to both prophets and writings, it was my impression that the
      >message of Jesus' death as fulfilling prophetic vision was a central part of
      >Christian doctrine.

      Thanks, Sam. This is really a first-rate argument against the initial
      inferences I attempted to draw from Theodore's answer to the philosopher's
      riddle. Sorry I didn't think of it myself. How glad I am that I gave up on
      that line of thought in my response to Paul Miller!

      (BTW, this is the first time I've seen <TN''Ch> for 'Tanakh'. I assume this
      is a Hebraic representation. This may be a stupid question, since I'm not
      familiar with Hebrew, but shouldn't it be <T'N'Ch>?)

      Mike
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    • Eric Dorsett
      ... that ... It is not a mere assumption that they were familiar with the Book of Enoch. The Book was used almost continually until 625 AD, and was still
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 9 11:34 AM
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        > I don't buy it, rev. Doesn't seem to me that this is a "more likely
        > explanation" of Theodore's mentioning Enoch but not Elijah. Problem is
        that
        > your hypothesis explains both too much, and too little:
        >
        > 1. Explains too much: It isn't necessary to assume that Pachomius and
        > Theodore were familiar with the Books of Enoch, because the reference to
        > Enoch in the Pentateuch is sufficient in itself to explain Theodore's
        > answer, without any familiarity with the Books of Enoch:

        It is not a mere assumption that they were familiar with the Book of Enoch.
        The Book was used almost continually until 625 AD, and was still alluded to
        until the eleventh century AD. It would be a greater assumption to say that
        they were not familliar with the works than to say they were.

        > I've capitalized the portions of this passage that would have stuck out in
        > the minds of the readers. No other patriarch is described in such terms,
        > not even Adam's son Seth, or Seth's son Enosh, who is said to have been
        the
        > first to invoke the name of Yahweh. Anyone familiar with the Pentateuch -
        > and with the Pentateuch alone - would have answered as Theodore did: the
        > person who was born but didn't die was Enoch.

        Is it not a great assumption that they had no exposure to the other books of
        the Tanakh?

        > 2. Explains too little: The real question, of course, is why Theodore
        > didn't mention Elijah. As I take it, what you're saying is that anyone
        > familiar with the Books of Enoch would have been so impressed by them,
        that
        > he might simply have overlooked Elijah. This doesn't strike me as being at
        > all likely. The folks of the time were more up on their religious readings
        > than that. Even in the unlikely event that Theodore had overlooked Elijah,
        > surely the "philosopher" who formulated the question would not have.

        I did not mean to imply that Elijah was over looked. It was a deeply held
        belief that Elijah had died in the person of John the Baptist. So, frankly,
        for a member of the church to say that Elijah did not die would not have
        been accurate.

        Peace in the light,
        Eric Dorsett


        =======================================================
        "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
        deserve neither liberty nor safety."

        - Benjamin Franklin. 1706-1790.Historical Review of Pennsylvania




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      • Eric Dorsett
        ... First of all I hope that you read the ethiopian version of the Book of Enoch, it is, in my opinion the most reliable. Actually, todays interest in Angels
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 9 11:39 AM
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          > Would you say the heightened interest in angels today is a reflection of
          > Enochian influence or are you speaking of another group? I downloaded and
          > read 1 Enoch some time ago. Fascinating in parts, long and boring (most
          > likely due to my ignorance) in other parts.

          First of all I hope that you read the ethiopian version of the Book of
          Enoch, it is, in my opinion the most reliable.

          Actually, todays interest in Angels is partially as a result of the triving
          Enochian Movement that is alive and doing well to this day.

          Unfortunately, the majority of the people in the enochian movement today are
          lost and miss guided.

          Peace in the light,
          Eric Dorsett


          =======================================================
          "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
          deserve neither liberty nor safety."

          - Benjamin Franklin. 1706-1790.Historical Review of Pennsylvania



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        • Eric Dorsett
          ... There has been a long tradition of a second Christian Church that co-existed along side the orthodox church. This second church was not implicently
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 9 12:25 PM
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            > Seriously, though, there is this historical question of whether the folks
            > who gave us the NH "library" inhabited the Pachomian monasteries or not. I
            > think that they did, but if they did, the question arises as to their
            > relationship with other monks who also inhabited these monasteries. Were
            > the other monks aware of the unorthodox beliefs of their fellows or not?

            There has been a long tradition of a second Christian Church that co-existed
            along side the orthodox church. This second church was not implicently
            heterodoxical, but was atleast more investigative in nature. I believe,
            from my own research on this subject, that the other monastraries were
            probably aware of the beliefs of this group of people and more than likely
            they were not shocked.

            > Putting it the other way round, did the gnostic monks have to hide their
            > beliefs from their fellow monks, or were they known and tolerated from the
            > outset?

            I think a better question is, Were the Nag Hamedi papers truly from a
            gnostic school. The Gospel of Thomas itself was considered Heterodoxical,
            but so was the Gospel of John, and the Book of Hebrews. Although many of
            the documents have a gnostic origin, the works of Paul were also widely used
            by the gnostics. With the diversity of texts that exist in the collection,
            It might have been a school that was investigating the liturature of the
            day.

            Peace in the light,
            Eric Dorsett


            =======================================================
            "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
            deserve neither liberty nor safety."

            - Benjamin Franklin. 1706-1790.Historical Review of Pennsylvania



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