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Re: [GTh] Re: Greek Numbers and the Names of Jesus

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  • Stephen Carlson
    ... Yes, according to W. Sidney Allen s study of Greek pronunciation, the sound of eta evolved over the centuries, from the vowel in English bad (pre-6th
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 12, 2012
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      On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 7:33 PM, Mike Grondin <mwgrondin@...> wrote:
      > ... although "ba" in Greek makes 3, I am pretty sure Greeks thought of
      > the sheep's sound was "bh" (as you indicated [has a value of] 10).
       
      I agree with you on this now. In addition to the sources you cite, the vowel in the sheep-
      sound (as I recall it) sounds more like the 'a' in 'bad' than in 'bah', and secondly, I seem
      to recall that Stephen Carlson discussed here some years back that the sound of eta had
      changed over the centuries, and so might have had that sound at that point in time.

      Yes, according to W. Sidney Allen's study of Greek pronunciation, the sound of eta evolved over the centuries, from the vowel in English "bad" (pre-6th cen. BCE), to "bed" (5th cen. BCE) to "bade" (2nd ce, BCE) to "bead" (2nd cen. CE), its modern value.  Other researchers tend to push these changes earlier.
       
      Stephen
      --
      Stephen C. Carlson
      Graduate Program in Religion
      Duke University
    • Bob Schacht
      ... Who among us has been around sheep (and lambs) very much? I used to be in proximity to them for much of my fieldwork, but that was decades ago. However, as
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 12, 2012
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        At 05:47 PM 2/12/2012, Stephen Carlson wrote:


        On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 7:33 PM, Mike Grondin <mwgrondin@...> wrote:
        > ... although "ba" in Greek makes 3, I am pretty sure Greeks thought of
        > the sheep's sound was "bh" (as you indicated [has a value of] 10).
         
        I agree with you on this now. In addition to the sources you cite, the vowel in the sheep-
        sound (as I recall it) sounds more like the 'a' in 'bad' than in 'bah', and secondly, I seem
        to recall that Stephen Carlson discussed here some years back that the sound of eta had
        changed over the centuries, and so might have had that sound at that point in time.


        Yes, according to W. Sidney Allen's study of Greek pronunciation, the sound of eta evolved over the centuries, from the vowel in English "bad" (pre-6th cen. BCE), to "bed" (5th cen. BCE) to "bade" (2nd ce, BCE) to "bead" (2nd cen. CE), its modern value. ...

        Who among us has been around sheep (and lambs) very much? I used to be in proximity to them for much of my fieldwork, but that was decades ago. However, as I recall the sound, one should not attempt to confine the bleating of sheep to just one vowel sound. I am pretty sure that I heard the 'a' as both bad and bah. The difference may have been in age, with lambs tending towards the 'a' in bad, but older sheep towards the 'a' in bah (would that be a "schwa", BTW?) The point being that it is OK for the metaphor if there is some ambiguity in the vowel quality. However, I should never be confused with an expert in sheep phonology.

        Bob Schacht
      • Mike Grondin
        Based on what Stephen and Bob wrote, BA is back in the picture. One thing we ve left out of account, though, is how the Copts would have pronounced the
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 12, 2012
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          Based on what Stephen and Bob wrote, 'BA' is back in the picture. One thing
          we've left out of account, though, is how the Copts would have pronounced
          the letter-groups under consideration. According to both Layton's and Lambdin's
          grammars (the latter with some hesitation), 'BH' would have been pronounced
          <bay> in Coptic. They differ on how 'BA' would have been pronounced, but
          both are within the range of a sheep-sound: according to Lambdin, it would
          have sounded like <bah>, as in Greek, while for Layton the Coptic 'A' sound
          was like the 'a' of 'bad'.
           
          Is it plausible that the author of GosTruth would have regarded 'the Father'
          as triune? Seems so. On p.24 of Codex I, we find this (Attridge/MacRae tr.):
           
          "The Father reveals his bosom - Now his bosom is the Holy Spirit. -
          He reveals what is hidden of him - what is hidden of him is his Son ..."
           
          Mike G.
        • chaptim45
          We ve been talking about Greek, but I ve also been trying to find the onomatapaeia for the sound of sheep in Coptic, which may be different than Greek. I
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 14, 2012
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            We've been talking about Greek, but I've also been trying to find the onomatapaeia  for the sound of sheep in Coptic, which may be different than Greek.  I have not been successful. The closest I've come is the sound for a donkey. In a book on Apuleius' Golden Ass, I found a footnote that states that

            `ia' or `io'  is Coptic onomatopoeia for hee haw. And `hwhw' was demotic for "bray".  (Source:  Auctor and Actor, by John J. Winkler, p315 footnote).

            I just thought some folks would like to know.

            As for the Gospel of Truth, I have to agree with Mike that the passage sure sounds trinitarian. 

            I like the Gospel of Truth's version of the lost sheep because it includes the notion that the sheep fell into a pit, something that is not found in the parallel stories in the canonical gospels-- or in Thomas L107, where it would have fit very well with the idea of the shepherd having to "toil" to retrieve the wayward sheep.

            Tim Staker

            Chaplain, Indianapolis

          • Bob Schacht
            ... Have you ever heard a donkey bray? Sounds like a rusty and very loud water pump. I would render it somewhat like HAW--EE-HAW--EE--HAW...etc. The EE
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 14, 2012
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              At 08:09 AM 2/14/2012, chaptim45 wrote:


              We've been talking about Greek, but I've also been trying to find the onomatapaeia  for the sound of sheep in Coptic, which may be different than Greek.  I have not been successful. The closest I've come is the sound for a donkey. In a book on Apuleius' Golden Ass, I found a footnote that states that

              `ia' or `io'  is Coptic onomatopoeia for hee haw. And `hwhw' was demotic for "bray".  (Source:  Auctor and Actor, by John J. Winkler, p315 footnote).
              Have you ever heard a donkey bray? Sounds like a rusty and very loud water pump. I would render it somewhat like

              HAW--EE-HAW--EE--HAW...etc. The "EE" sounded like it might have been on inhaling, while the HAW was on the exhale. On my first trip overseas, on my first archaeology dig, in the first week on site, I was awakened early one morning by that racket, but could not see the donkey in question. A caller on Click and Clack claimed it was the sound of an "amorous" donkey, but I never saw a donkey bray while engaged in amorous activity.

              I seem to be becoming this list's expert on barnyard sounds. Surely some of you have equal or different or better experience!

              Bob Schacht
              Northern Arizona University


              I just thought some folks would like to know.

              As for the Gospel of Truth, I have to agree with Mike that the passage sure sounds trinitarian. 

              I like the Gospel of Truth's version of the lost sheep because it includes the notion that the sheep fell into a pit, something that is not found in the parallel stories in the canonical gospels-- or in Thomas L107, where it would have fit very well with the idea of the shepherd having to "toil" to retrieve the wayward sheep.

              Tim Staker

              Chaplain, Indianapolis


            • Mike Grondin
              Hi Tim et al, How could we all have forgotten ABBA, the Aramaic word for father ? It appears three times* in the NT: Gal 4.6: ... because you are sons, God
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 14, 2012
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                Hi Tim et al,
                 
                How could we all have forgotten ABBA, the Aramaic word for 'father'?
                It appears three times* in the NT:
                 
                Gal 4.6:  "... because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his
                Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!'"
                 
                Rom 8.15: "... you have received a spirit of adoption as sons, by
                which we cry out, 'Abba! Father!'"
                 
                Mk 14.36: "And he was saying, 'Abba! Father! All things are possible for
                you; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what you will.'"
                 
                Seems to me not at all unlikely that this early Christian 'cry' was one of the
                reasons for GosTruth connecting the sheep sound 'BA' to 'the Father' -
                perhaps the major one. The numeric value of BA (3) would then have
                served as reinforcing the validity of that connection in light of the Trinity.
                 
                Mike Grondin
                *translations my loose NASB; in each case, 'father' = PATHR (Coptic 'eiwt')
              • Mike Grondin
                Judging from lack of response, my last note on this thread appears to have satisfactorily concluded our inquiry into GosTruth. It really was quite
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 17, 2012
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                  Judging from lack of response, my last note on this thread appears to have
                  satisfactorily concluded our inquiry into GosTruth. It really was quite
                  extraordinary that we were able to delve beneath the text to get into the very
                  mind of the author! It was surely more difficult for us than it would have been
                  for the original readers, since they wouldn't have had the trouble we had
                  figuring out what the sheep sound was in their language. Would the word
                  'ABBA' also have readily occurred to them (as it didn't to us)? That's a
                  question that'll probably always remain a mystery.
                   
                  By stumbling on the correct interpretation of the sentence in question, we were also
                  able to do something we couldn't do from the Coptic alone, namely to determine
                  that the translation "This number [100] signifies the Father" is wrong. It was the
                  sheep-sound (BA), not the number 100, that "signifies the Father" (i.e., ABBA).
                   
                  As to the number 100, however, I've got a couple final notes. First, I've
                  to respond to some suggestions and add something I left out.
                   
                  Second, I've revised an image of L.100 originally posted back in July of
                  '09 in connection with the message below, but this time explicitly showing
                  how it can be transformed into a chiastic structure containing 100 letters:
                   
                  This latter may require some explanation. I've believed for some time that
                  the designers of Coptic Thomas arranged it so that (1) L.107 (the lost sheep)
                  would point to L.100, and (2) L.100 would have a structure appropriate to its
                  representing the beloved lost sheep. Back on 7/22/09, I posted this:
                   
                  This was followed by an interchange with Rick Hubbard:
                   
                  To what I wrote back then, I would now add another couple things:
                  (1) One of the reasons for believing that L.107 points to L.100 is that it would
                  have taken the reader (like the shepherd) some trouble to find L.100. The sayings
                  weren't numbered, so the reader would have had to do that.
                  (2) One thing I didn't notice until I put together the image of the transformed L.100
                  is that when the N is moved from the end of line 599 to the beginning of line 600,
                  line 600 then begins with NN which is a representation of the number 100 (50+50).
                   
                  Cheers to all,
                  Mike
                  *apropos another thread about Chris Skinner's new book, I notice that at the end
                  of msg 8872, I welcomed him to the list. He was just moving to Mount Olive, his
                  John-Thomas book (on which discussion ensued) then newly out.
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