2455[gthomas] Re: Weeden on GTh 61
- Mar 30 10:03 AMMike,
Reading Ted's analysis make me wonder about what's going on on Crosstalk
nowadays. Posters there seem to spend huge amounts of time arguing, and
authoring interminable posts about what seems like straws in the wind.
Such as if Mk was written in northern Israel or in southern Israel? As if
there's any hope of ever determining this for sure... The truth most
likely is that it was written over a 100 years, possibly in the West, by a
dozen hands with influences coming from different places, and based on
different sources. I guess they just have to keep trying to push that
camel through the needle's eye?
Speaking about Ted's piece, what are his speculations really based on?
He's using some apocryphal inferences about who the daughter of Herod was,
while forgetting all about the Salome that actually _is_ attested as a
close disciple of Jesus? Indeed..
On Sun, 26 Mar 2000, Michael Grondin wrote:
> Ted Weeden is author of a notable work on Mark, now unfortunately out of
> print. Recently, he's been writing on Crosstalk arguing that GMark was
> written in the East (specifically, Caesarea Philippi) rather than in the
> West (Rome or Egypt) as some early church writings claim. In a recent note,
> he mentions Mark's use of Salome and discusses GTh 61 (wherein Salome is
> also mentioned). He's given me his consent to repost that material here.
> The following is from a much longer note, but is complete in itself:
> Can my case for Salome in Mark being a surrogate for the Herodians be
> supported in the tradition of the early church?
But the name of Salome the Herodian is not mentioned in Mk. The only
Salome in Mk is in these two passages,
Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary
Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of
James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to
anoint Jesus' body.
In fact, these are the only two places in the whole Bible where Salome is
> Is there a reference any where else in first-century Christian sources
> to a Salome, one who is both linked to Jesus and manifests all the
> characteristics of the Herodian Salome?
"Any where else"? Such a reference exists nowhere in NT.
> Yes, in the Gospel of Thomas the same Markan Herodian Salome, of
> immoral reputation, appears there.
The same mistake again.
> In GT 61, using the English translation of Hans-Gebhard Bethge as it
> appears in Stephen Patterson and James Robinson's _The Fifth Gospel_,
> we find this:
> Jesus said: "Two will rest on a bed. The one will die, the other will
> live." Salome said: "(So) who are you, man? You have gotten a place
> on my couch as a <stranger> and you have eaten from my table." Jesus
> said to her: "I am he who comes from the one who is (always) the same.
> I was given some of that which is my Father's." "I am your disciple!"
> Therefore I say: If someone becomes <like> (God), he will become full
> of light. But if he becomes one, separated (from God), he will become
> full of darkness.
So where do we get any indication that this is not a reference to the
Salome of Mk, who is one of close and true disciples of Jesus?
> That a very interesting and strange exchange between Jesus and Salome.
> Unlike all other characters in Thomas, she does not question Jesus
> with sincere intent to be taught by him. She interrogates him in a
> very confrontational matter: "So who are you man?" And what she
> confronts him about is that he has crashed her party. She is clearly
> cast as someone of means ("my couch" and "my table'). She speaks with
> a sense of authority to back up her confrontational assertiveness. She
> sounds like her own barroom bouncer, demanding to know what right he
> has to crash her party. It fits an elite profile of a woman in courtly
> setting with courtly authority.
> Moreover, GT 61 seems to have some redactional seams suggesting that
> this passage has been reworked or inserted. Salome's surprising
> declaration, "I am your disciple," indicating a sudden conversion to
Why "sudden"? Mk indicates that she's one of the close and true disciples
> seems to have been sandwiched in between two of the Thomas Jesus'
> typical "otherworldly" declarations. And the last one makes no sense
> as a response to Salome's declaration of discipleship. It is as though
> Jesus either did not hear her or ignored her announcement that she is
> now his disciple. Moreover, the GT 61 reference to two men on a bed,
> one who dies the other who lives, may be a redactor's rework of Q
> (17:34), with an intended allusion to John the Baptist (the one who
> dies at Salome's hands) and Jesus (the Thomas Jesus who now eternally
> lives) in mind, to serve as a lead-in to this Herodian Salome
Why "this Herodian Salome"?
> and her confrontation with this itinerant party crasher.
> In my email with Ted, he indicated that he would be interested in what
> our list members had to say about his analysis of #61. In reply, I
> mentioned my own theory that the phrase "I'm your disciple" is not
> intended to be taken as being uttered by Salome to J, but rather is a
> misplaced rejoinder to J's statement to Thomas in #13 ("I'm not your
> master.") Nevertheless, Ted has presented a viable and coherent
> alternative explanation for the apparently clumsy insertion of "I'm
> your disciple" into the text sometime after it was originally written.
Actually, I don't think Ted's explanation is either viable or coherent.
> I'd only add that if the two on the bed are intended to be Jesus and
> John-the-B, then the question arises as to what this "bed" is intended
> to represent. I suspect that Ted might say that it represents the
> geographic domain of Salome. If so, this would provide an explanation
> for what is meant when Salome is made to say that J has "mounted her
> bed" and "eaten from her table".
The only interesting thing that I see in this GOT passage that, I agree,
is quite possibly corrupt, is Salome's direct question, "So who are you
man?" This seems to support the view that early disciples of Jesus did not
think of him as Christ. In other words, supporting the view that low
christology was normative earliest christology of the movement.
Yuri Kuchinsky | Toronto | http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm
Biblical history list http://www.egroups.com/group/loisy - unmoderated
The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
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