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10494Re: [GTh] Authorship and Dating GTh

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  • Jack Kilmon
    Feb 5, 2013
      Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 3:00 PM
      Subject: Re: [GTh] Authorship and Dating GTh
      > Scholarly consensus is that Mark USED an early Thomas ...
      MIKE] Now Jack, you know better. Steve Davies proposed that in a paper, true, but it's
      had about as much acceptance as your own opinion that Mark wrote Thomas.
      JACK] Well, Mike, I didn’t accept it either but my opinion that Thomas originated in Markan notes has not been published other than our chats here.  Without being presented to the collegium for acceptance or denial, I have not been able to assess other opinions, and why. I can understand why Steve reached his opinion. I am willing to listen...er...read counterarguments and consider them other than just a “nuh-UH!” Of course I could be wrong but remembering I am the “follow the Aramaic guy” I just need to know why.  Let’s look at the Thomas and Mark parallels:
      Thomas logia in order of appearance in Mark (and Aramaic structures common to Thomas and Mark):

      THOMAS104 They said to Jesus, "Come, let us pray today, and let us fast."

      Mar 2:18 And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to
      fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of
      the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?

      Mar 2:19 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the
      bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have
      the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

      Mar 2:20 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken
      away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

      Matthew (9:15) and Luke (5:35) get this from MARK rather than also using
      Thomas. Mark uses Thomas because Mark WROTE Thomas.

      THOMAS47 Jesus said, "A person cannot mount two horses or bend two bows. And
      a slave cannot serve two masters, otherwise that slave will honor the one
      and offend the other.

      "Nobody drinks aged wine and immediately wants to drink young wine. Young
      wine is not poured into old wineskins, or they might break, and aged wine is
      not poured into a new wineskin, or it might spoil.

      Again Mark uses this for his Gospel, redacting it from the notes, and
      Matthew and Luke get it from Mark with their own treatment. Mat 6:24;
      9:16-17; Lk 16:13, 5:39, 5:36-38.

      Mar 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new
      wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will
      be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

      THOMAS47e An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, since it would create
      a tear."

      Mar 2:21 No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old
      garment else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and
      the rent is made worse.

      The Aramaic interference here, which I believe traces a path from Mark to
      Asyndeton. Omission of article from sxisma. Swete; Gospel acc. To St. Mark
      Greek rendering of Aramaic status emphaticus wrongly understood as
      indefinite noun. Anarthrous in Aramaic yet definite (Black p95-95).

      Asyndeton is contrary to Greek spirit and usage. Most Greek sentences
      connected by particle. Asyndeton is highly characteristic of Aramaic. One
      of the striking features of Gospel of John (E. A. Abbott Johannine Grammar)
      attributed By C. F. Burney to an Aramaic original (Aramaic Orgin.) p49. That's a
      different discussion.

      THOMAS35 Jesus said, "One can't enter a strong person's house and take it by force without tying his hands. Then one can loot his house."

      Mar 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

      Matthew picks this up from Mark (Mt 12:29) and Luke gets it from either Mark also or from Matthew (Lk 11:21-22)

      THOMAS44 Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

      Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

      Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

      amarthmatoj is another sense of xwbh, j.t. marshall Expositor ser iv, iii, p282f

      Mar 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

      Matthew again gets it from Thomas (Mt. 12:31-32) and Luke 12: 10 from either Mark or Matthew (depending on your synoptic problem bent)

      THOMAS 99 The disciples said to him, "Your brothers and your mother are standing outside." He said to them, "Those here who do what my Father wants are my brothers and my mother. They are the ones who will enter my Father's kingdom."

      Mar 3:31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.

      Mar 3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.

      Mar 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

      Mar 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

      Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

      Again the Markan "Jesus said.." note which is Thomas 99 is expanded in Mark's gospel and picked up from Mark by Matthew (12:46-50) and Luke (8:19-21).

      THOMAS9 Jesus said, Look, the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and
      scattered (them). Some fell on the road, and the birds came and gathered
      them. Others fell on rock, and they didn't take root in the soil and didn't
      produce heads of grain. Others fell on thorns, and they choked the seeds and
      worms ate them. And others fell on good soil, and it produced a good crop:
      it yielded sixty per measure and one hundred twenty per measure.

      Mar 4:3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

      Mar 4:4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

      Mar 4:5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

      Mar 4:6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

      Mar 4:7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

      Mar 4:8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

      Mar 4:9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

      Here Matthew (13: 3-8) gets this from Mark as does Luke (8: 5-8) and, IMO, all started as Mark's Aramaic "Jesus said.." notes.

      Not one incidence of hypotactic aorist participle yet in Greek aorist
      participle describing events anterior to action of verb is regular. In Lk
      xv 11-32 (prod son) the subordinating aorist participle occurs 11 times.
      Its absence in par. of sower (mk 4:3-9) is characteristic of translation
      Greek.. Literally translated Greek version of an Aramaic story by Jesus.
      Wellhausen Einl. P13.

      THOMAS62 Jesus said, "I disclose my mysteries to those [who are worthy] of [my] mysteries. Do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing."

      Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

      In Mark 4:11, 12 the saying is not a simple translation of the Aramaic but
      the author's Greek literary Interpretation of material from his original
      Aramaic "Jesus said.." source.

      Matthew (13:11, 13-15) and Luke (8:10) get this from Mark because they both follow Mark's redaction of his note (Thomas).

      THOMAS33 Jesus said, "What you will hear in your ear, in the other ear proclaim from your rooftops.

      "After all, no one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, nor does one put
      it in a hidden place. Rather, one puts it on a lampstand so that all who
      come and go will see its light."

      Mar 4:21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?

      Matthew (5:15;10:27) and Luke (8:16;12:3) get this from Mark and Mark truncates his Thomas note rather than expand it.

      THOMAS5 Jesus said, Know what is in front of your face and what is hidden
      from you will be disclosed to you for there is nothing hidden that will not
      be revealed.

      THOMAS6 His disciples asked him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast?
      How should we pray? Should we give to charity? What diet should we observe?"

      Jesus said, "Don't lie, and don't do what you hate, because all things are
      disclosed before heaven. After all, there is nothing hidden that will not be
      revealed, and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed."

      Mar 4:22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

      Here I think Logion 5 is the original Markan/Thomas note that became Mark
      4:22 and used by Matthew and Luke (Mt 10:26, Lk 12:2, Lk 8:17). I think
      Logion 6 is a later Gnostic "tweaking" using Logion 5 (hence the
      juxtaposition) and redacting back the Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31 Golden

      THOMAS21f When the crop ripened, he came quickly carrying a sickle and
      harvested it. Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!

      Mar 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

      <Aramaic> an anash ith laych iDENeh d'yiSHEMo yiSHEMo

      Apparently commonly used by Jesus passed to Mark (from Peter?) who wrote it in
      his "Jesus saids..." (Thomas) as a conclusion to parables (as in Logion 8,
      21, 24, 65, 96) and used by Mark in his Gospel for the sower parable (4:9)
      and the "hidden and revealed" aphorism (4:23) and picked up by Matthew and
      Luke to conclude the sower parable (another strong indicator of Matthew and
      Luke using Mark).

      THOMAS41 Jesus said, "Whoever has something in hand will be given more, and
      whoever has nothing will be deprived of even the little they have."

      Mark uses this in his gospel:

      Mar 4:25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath
      not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

      ...with little change in style and syntax.

      Now this is interesting....both Matthew (25:29) and Luke (19:26) pick this
      up from Mark with little redaction but both Matthew (13:2) and Luke (8:18)
      use it earlier in their gospels somewhat embellished. Two separate sources?

      THOMAS21e When the crop ripened, he came quickly carrying a sickle and
      harvested it. Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!

      This sickle and harvest aphorism is found ONLY in Thomas and Mark, another indicator to me that Thomas IS Mark.

      Mar 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;

      The Aramaic paronomasia evident in both Mark and Thomas

      d'aloho ayk anash denarmeh zara d'ara
      seed zar'a ground 'ar`a

      Mar 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.

      Mar 4:28 For the earth 'ar`a bringeth forth fruit par`a of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

      Mar 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth,

      Kadh yehibha 'ibbah

      immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

      Shallah magla dah'sadha 'abbibh

      ...is very Markan to me.

      THOMAS20 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us what Heaven's kingdom is like."

      He said to them, It's like a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds, but when it falls on prepared soil, it produces a large plant and becomes a shelter for birds of the sky.

      Mar 4:30 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?

      Mar 4:31 [It is] like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:

      Mar 4:32 But when it is sown (zera) , it groweth (rabhi) up,

      Key sounds laryngeal and sonant resh form the paronomasia. No paranomasia is more certain in the gospels and it is recoverable only from Mark.

      .... and becometh greater (rabba) than all herbs, (zeroin) and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

      Matthew 13:31-32; Luke 13:18-19 get this from Mark and Mark got it from his notes (Thomas). Of course, Luke could have taken it from Matthew but the original source was Mark's notes of "Jesus saids..." in Aramaic which he copied into his gospel in Greek.

      THOMAS31 Jesus said, "No prophet is welcome on his home turf; doctors don't cure those who know them."

      Mar 6:1 And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.

      Mar 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From whence hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

      Mar 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

      Mar 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

      Mar 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed [them].

      Mar 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

      Note that the "Jesus said.." is at Mark 6:4 and the rest is a story around
      it...a story probably developed by Mark to fit the logion. The story then
      passes from Mark to Matthew (13:57) and Luke (4:24) with some redaction
      around it.

      THOMAS14c After all, what goes into your mouth will not defile you; rather,
      it's what comes out of your mouth that will defile you."

      Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people [unto him], he said
      unto them, Hearken unto me every one [of you], and understand:

      Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into
      him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they
      that defile the man.

      Matthew uses this at 15:11 but Luke omits it which I find interesting. In
      the Aramaic idiom, food....bread and wine...are used for teachings and
      eating and drinking, taking in those teachings. Poison represents bad
      teachings. You can hear all sorts of bad stuff and it will not defile you
      unless you repeat it to others. Very Yeshuine and, I believe, in the
      original "Jesus saids.."

      Good persons produce good from what they've stored up; bad persons produce
      evil from the wickedness they've stored up in their hearts, and say evil
      things. For from the overflow of the heart they produce evil."

      This is related to logion 14 and appears to be midrashed by Matthew (7:16-20; 12:33-35) and Luke (6:43-45) and also by Mark himself:

      Mar 7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.

      Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, [it] cannot defile him;

      Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

      Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

      Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

      Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

      Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

      THOMAS48 Jesus said, "If two make peace with each other in a single house,
      they will say to the mountain, 'Move from here!' and it will move."

      Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto
      this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not
      doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall
      come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

      Matthew (17:20; 21:21) and Luke (17:6 both pick this up.

      THOMAS65 He said, A [...] person owned a vineyard and rented it to some
      farmers, so they could work it and he could collect its crop from them. He
      sent his slave so the farmers would give him the vineyard's crop. They
      grabbed him, beat him, and almost killed him, and the slave returned and
      told his master. His master said, "Perhaps he didn't know them." He sent
      another slave, and the farmers beat that one as well. Then the master sent
      his son and said, "Perhaps they'll show my son some respect." Because the
      farmers knew that he was the heir to the vineyard, they grabbed him and
      killed him. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!

      Mark allegorizes this parable when he writes the gospel:

      Mar 12:1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A [certain]
      man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about [it], and digged [a place
      for] the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went
      into a far country.

      Mar 12:2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant,
      that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.

      Mar 12:3 And they caught [him], and beat him, and sent [him] away

      Mar 12:4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him
      they cast stones, and wounded [him] in the head, and sent [him] away
      shamefully handled.

      Mar 12:5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many
      others; beating some, and killing some.

      Mar 12:6 Having yet therefore one son, his well beloved, he sent
      him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

      Mar 12:7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the
      heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.

      Mar 12:8 And they took him, and killed [him], and cast [him] out of
      the vineyard.

      Mar 12:9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will
      come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

      And Matthew (21:33-39) and Luke (20:9-15) again show their dependence on
      Mark appending the Vineyard story with Logion 66:

      THOMAS66 Jesus said, "Show me the stone that the builders rejected: that is the keystone."

      Mark does not change his note:

      Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

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