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Re: Antw: [groningen-genealogy] Re: Ties Lemain

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  • Robb Ouzts
    Thank you Annelies for the article.   Thank you Teijo & Chris for the help.  I can t make out the date for Tjipke leaving to Veendam any better than you did
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 27, 2013
      Thank you Annelies for the article.
       
      Thank you Teijo & Chris for the help.  I can't make out the date for Tjipke leaving to Veendam any better than you did Chris, but I will guess that it is 1874, as his sons Jan & Geert are born there in 1875 & 1879 respectively.  This means that he was no longer in Akkers in Nella set up home there and when Ties Lamain moved in with her.
       
      Robb.


      ________________________________
      From: Annelies <annelies@...>
      To: groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 3:05 PM
      Subject: Antw: [groningen-genealogy] Re: Ties Lemain


       

      Dit heeft ongetwijfeld met de volkstelling van 1879 te maken, zijn woonadres is aangepast aan de situatie ten tijde van de volkstelling.
      Zie http://kranten.kb.nl/view/text/id/ddd%3A010187252%3Ampeg21%3Ap002%3Aa0001

      groet, Annelies de Wijk
      http://www.dewijk.org/genealogie/

      --- In mailto:groningen-genealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Chris van Dijkum" wrote:
      >
      > Hello Robb,
      >
      > kaart van Ties Hoving:
      > Aanmerkingen:
      > Afgeschreven uit
      > kr(acht) v(an) Z(ijne) M(ajesteits) besluit v(an)
      > d(en) 20 Juli 1879 s...[?]
      >
      > kaart van Hendrik Lamain:
      > Aanmerkingen:
      > Elders geboekt
      >
      > kaart van Nella Houwen: (Tjipke c.s. 27 octr 1879 naar Veendam)
      > Jan 1888
      > Aanmerkingen:
      > Ingeschreven uit kracht{?]
      > exp(loit) Z(ijne) M(ajesteits) besluit van den
      > 20 Juli 1879 ....
      >
      > So search for the royal decree from 28 juli 1879 in the Nederlandsche Staatcourant.
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Chris van Dijkum
      >
      > --- In mailto:groningen-genealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Robb Ouzts wrote:
      > >
      > > I have posted new images of the records, but I am not sure they are much better.� From what everyone said, I looked closer, and realized there was a note for Ties Lamain with his grandfather: Ties Hoving's record and with Nella Houwen's record.� It looks like it says he moved out of his grandfather's house in 1879 and in with his widowed Aunt: Nella Houwen.� The date appears to be 20.7.1879, and his uncle: Jan Hoving died on 19.7.1879.� It appears that leaves his grandfather: Ties Hoving alone till his death in 1883.� As I am not sure when he moved into the Ties Hoving home, his father may have already been married (1865) and in his own home.� His Aunt: Sieske (Sietske) was 13 years older than he, and marries in 1874, he (Ties Lemain) names a daughter for her.� She was the youngest Hoving still living when he did moved in as all the younger Hoving children died before he was born.� As his grandmother: Aaltje
      Ruiter died in 1866, Sieske likely
      > > took care of him when he came to live with the family. The other aunt: Johanna Hoving marries in 1877.
      > > groetjes,
      > > Robb.
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: T. Doornkamp
      > > To: mailto:groningen-genealogy%40yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:00 AM
      > > Subject: Antw: [groningen-genealogy] Re: Ties Lemain
      > >
      > > The quality of the copy is very bad but the first word looks like Ingeschreven (entered in the register) to me
      > >
      > > Ingeschreven met kind?
      > > ...
      > > 20 Juli 1879 ... no ...
      > >
      > > Teijo
      > >
      > > Op 01-24-13, Chris van Dijkum schreef:
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >�
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Afgeschreven (= uitgeschreven = removed from the register) met
      > > > kr. k[?] ... [?]
      > > > d. 21[?] Juli 1879 ... [?]
      > > >
      > > > Groet, Chris van Dijkum
      > > > --- In mailto:groningen-genealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Robb Ouzts wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > For those who have an interest in this family:
      > > > > I found Ties Lemain on the population register for Muntendam 1860-1880. I have posted a file containing the 3 pages I found him on to the group's website under files. It is labeled with Ties Lemain's name. Dates of when he enterred each household are not given, but I think I have placed the pages in order of which house he lived in. I believe he was born while his mother Hinderkien Lemain lived with her mother: Trijntje Knapper. Either after his mother's death or when his grandmother could no longer care for him, he went to live in the house of the man for whom he was named: Ties Hoving. He is listed as no relation to Ties Hoving, however I think this is from the stigma of his being illegitimate. Lastly he is found on the same page as the man I believe is is father: Tjipke Hoving. Tjipke's brother Jan married Nella Houwen, and died less than 1 year later, leaving her a widow with a young son: Ties Hoving. It is Nella's home where I found him
      > > > > last.
      > > > > On the page where he is listed with Ties Hoving as head of household, there is a note on line with his name, which I am  not sure what it means. I was wondering if someone in the group would look at it and translate it. I was unable to make the best of copies, so if it can't be read, I will try and make another copy when I have a chance to go to the library again.
      > > > > �
      > > > > I believe it is more than a coincidence that Ties Lemain end's up living with various members of the Hoving family. As he share's the name of Tjipke Hoving's father: Ties, and he names his eldest son Tjipke, I believe it is Tjipke Hoving who is his father. I think as he had an elder brother Ties born and died in 1861, that his mother and Tjipke had a relationship which may well have resulted in marriage had not Hinderkien Lemain died shortly after her 2nd son: Ties' birth.  For now I am linking Tjipke as Ties' father in my records. Here is a link to what I have:
      > > > > �
      > > > > http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=rawboots&id=I247617
      > > > > �
      > > > > mvg,
      > > > > Robb.�
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ________________________________
      > > > > From: Ina Hazewinkel
      > > > > To: mailto:groningen-genealogy%40yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 2:13 PM
      > > > > Subject: Re: [groningen-genealogy] Ties Lemain
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >  
      > > > >
      > > > > Hello Robb,
      > > > >
      > > > > The death certificate of first son Thijs on 17/08/1961
      > > > > as witnesses Diederick Hofman (neighbor) and Marten Harkema?
      > > > >
      > > > > The birth certificate of son Ties 04/13/1864,
      > > > > The following witnesses called:
      > > > > Albert Kieleman and M? Beur
      > > > >
      > > > > and in the death certificate of Ties as witnesses:
      > > > > Henry Tebbens and Wigbolt Flik
      > > > >
      > > > > the death certificate of Hindrikjen (Hinder Kien) as witnesses
      > > > > Nicolaus Lambrechts and Hindrik Pla(e)ger
      > > > >
      > > > > Hoving's name is not in the records
      > > > >
      > > > > all these scans can be found on http://www.allegroningers.nl/(http://www.allegroningers.nl/)
      > > > >
      > > > > Best regards Ina
      > > > >
      > > > > --- On Tue, 1/22/13, Robb Ouzts mailto:rawboots%40yahoo.com> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > From: Robb Ouzts mailto:rawboots%40yahoo.com>
      > > > > Subject: Re: [groningen-genealogy] Ties Lemain
      > > > > To: "mailto:groningen-genealogy%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:groningen-genealogy%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2013, 9:01 PM
      > > > >
      > > > > Yes,
      > > > > Hindrikjen Hindriks Lamain was born 16.9.1838 in Bovenweg, gemeente: Muntendam, died 5.5.1864 in Akkers. She was the daughter of Hindrik (Hindrik Jelis per her death record) Hindriks Lemain & Trijntje Gerrits Knapper married 1837 in Muntendam, and granddaughter of Hindrik Jelis Lamain & Hinderkien Hindriks Speelman for whom she was named.
      > > > > �
      > > > > My evidence so far is circumspect.  She names both the sons she gives birth to Ties. The 1861 birth (in Veendam)� is incorrectly listed on Allegroningers as mother: Hillechien Lamein, but if you look at the actual record the mother's name was Hinderkien. A few months after the birth of this first Ties he dies in Akkers, gemeente: Muntendam, which is where the Hoving family was living.  One of the witnesses to his death is Diedericus Hofman, who is also a witness to the death of Albert Hoving (brother of Tjipke) less than a month later.  The other witness to Albert's death is Nicolaas Lambrecht who is also witness to Hindrikje Hoving (sister of Tjipke) who died 3 days before Albert in 1861.  Nicolaas Lambrecht is also witness to Hindrikjen/Hinderkien Lamain's death in 1864.  Of course Akkers is a small section in Muntendam, so everyone is everyone's neighbor.  Ties Lemain's naming of his children Tjipke (the eldest son, so
      used
      > > before honoring
      > > > > Antina op de Dijk's father: Albert), and Sietske, both names are somewhat common as you point out, but they are not names from Hindrikjen Lamain's family nor Antina's family.  Eppo is a name from Antina's family, an indication that she and Ties did honor family members in the naming of their 10 children.  None of this is conclusive, but Tjipke Hoving may not have recognized legally Ties as he never married Hindrikjen before her death and Roelfien may not have wanted his love child in her home as a reminder that he had been with some one before her.  (NOTE: My 2nd great grandfather did not want his wife's love child in the home, nor did they bring the love child with them to the states when they came, she stayed behind in the Netherlands, living with her grandmother till the grandmother's death.)  The only further evidence I can think of right now is to find Hindrikjen Lamain on the population register at the time of her death in 1864
      and
      > > see if by
      > > > > chance she is listed in the Hoving household.  Also to see if Ties can be found on the registers and see whose household he lived in after his mother's death till his marriage in 1885.
      > > > > �
      > > > > groetjes,
      > > > > Robb.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ________________________________
      > > > > From: Ina Hazewinkel mailto:haasjes5winkel%40yahoo.com>
      > > > > To: mailto:groningen-genealogy%40yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 12:14 PM
      > > > > Subject: Re: [groningen-genealogy] Ties Lemain
      > > > > � � �
      > > > >
      > > > > �  
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi Rob,
      > > > > What evidence do you have that Tjipke Hoving is the father of Ties Lemain?The names of the children of son Ties, was at that time common in Muntendam,would it not be more logical, if only one child,� was named� to the family of Hindrikien?or named after his� possible� father Tjipke
      > > > > With the marriage of Tjipke Hoving and Roelfjen Smith,Ties was not named as a child, even though he iswas � only 1 1/2 years old.
      > > > > Tjipke and Roelfsen married on 16/11/1865 Muntendamand they had the following children:Aaltje 1866- Meindert 1868- Thijs 1870
      > > > > Do you know the parents of Hinder Kien Lemain?
      > > > > Best regards Ina
      > > > > --- On Tue, 1/22/13, Robb Ouzts mailto:rawboots%40yahoo.com> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > From: Robb Ouzts mailto:rawboots%40yahoo.com>
      > > > > Subject: [groningen-genealogy] Ties Lemain
      > > > > To: "Groningen Genealogy" mailto:groningen-genealogy%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2013, 2:15 PM
      > > > >
      > > > > Beste lijstegenoten:
      > > > > �
      > > > > I have been working on the family of Ties Lemain, born 1864 in Akkers, gemeente: Muntendam to Hindrikjen/Hinderkien Lamain, who died less than a month later.  She had a prior son, also name Ties/Thijs born 1861 in Veendam, died 1861 in Veen.  At the time of Hindrikjen's death it appears that only her mother and brother: Gerrit were alive, her other siblings and father were deceased already.
      > > > > �
      > > > > It looks to me as if Tjipke Hoving might be the father.  His youngest 2 siblings die in 1861 in Akkers.  He has a sister Sieske/Sietske, named for their paternal grandmother.  Ties Lemain marries Antina op de Dijk in 1885, and has 10 children.  The first 5 are named for the grandparents (eldest son: Tjipke & 2 sons: Albert, one died young).  They have a Sietske & a Jan boths siblings of Tjipke Hoving.  I think Tjipke and Hindrikjen didn't marry for some reason, maybe the cost of a wedding held them up, and then she died.  Tjipke is married about 18 months, after the death of Hindrikjen,� with Roelfien Meinderts Smit.  Does anyone have evidence of this?  Maybe a population register showing who Ties lived with after the death of his mother?
      > > > > �
      > > > > mvg,
      > > > > Robb.
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > > > ------------------------------------
      > > > >
      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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      > > > > � � �
      > > > >       � � �
      > > > >
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      > > > > ------------------------------------
      > > > >
      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > >
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      > > > >
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      > > >�
      > > >�
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      > > >
      > > --
      > > Groeten, Teijo
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
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      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >




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