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Re: Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema

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  • bertspelde
    Henny Ik denk dat Wessel Hindriks Zuidema de juiste is. Maar bij welk kind is Wessel bij jou dan eerst 10?. Het eerste kind wat mij bekend is, is Hendrik geb.
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 7, 2008
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      Henny
      Ik denk dat Wessel Hindriks Zuidema de juiste is. Maar bij welk kind
      is Wessel bij jou dan eerst 10?. Het eerste kind wat mij bekend is,
      is Hendrik geb. circa 1840/1841. Bij het huwelijk met Magritha
      (waarschijnlijk in 1839/1840 in Duitsland)is Wessel(geb. circa 1821-
      overl. 14-9-1890 op 69 jarige leeftijd) dan minstens 18 of 19.
      m.v.g.
      Bert Spelde


      --- In groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com, Henny Savenije <adam-
      eve@...> wrote:
      >
      > Een interessant probleem. Magrieta Sikkos, trouwt met Jacob Jans
      > Busscher Hartman in 1835, Hij overlijd al snel in 1838. Dan heeft
      zij
      > een 4 tal kinderen bij een Wessel Zuidema, maar overlijdt in 1876
      als
      > weduwe van Jacob Hartman. Wessel Zuidema wordt nergens meer genoemd.
      >
      > De enige Wessel Zuidema die in aanmerking komt is een Wessel
      Hindriks
      > Zuidema die in het jaar van haar overlijden trouwt met een Jantjen
      > Tielman, maar die is eigenlijk te jong, want dat zou betekenen dat
      > hij zijn eerste kind kreeg op 10 jarige leeftijd.
      >
      > Wie weet wie de juiste Wessel Zuidema is.
      >
      > Meer informatie op
      > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/tng/getperson.php?
      personID=I56760&tree=savenije
      > en beneden.
      >
      >
      > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
      > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
      > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
      > Soort akte: overlijden
      > Aktenummer: 35
      > Aangiftedatum: 13-04-1876
      > Overledene Magrieta Zuidema
      > Geslacht: V
      > Overlijdensdatum: 12-04-1876
      > Leeftijd: 62
      > Overlijdensplaats: Oude Pekela
      > Vader Sikko Harms Zuidema
      > Moeder Harmke Hinderks
      > Partner Jacob Busscher Hartman
      > Relatie: weduwe
      > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Meeden
      >
      > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Huwelijk
      > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
      > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
      > Soort akte: Huwelijksakte
      > Aktenummer: 11
      > Datum: 21-04-1835
      > Bruidegom Jacob Jans Busscher Hartman
      > Geboortedatum: 14-09-1810
      > Geboorteplaats: Nieuw Pekela
      > Bruid Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema
      > Geboortedatum: 04-06-1813
      > Geboorteplaats: Meeden
      > Vader bruidegom Marten Hartman
      > Moeder bruidegom Margie Ritmers
      > Vader bruid Sikko Harms Zuidema
      > Moeder bruid Harmke Hinderks
      > Nadere informatie beroep bruidegom: inl. kramer; beroep bruid: inl.
      > kraamster; beroep vader bruidegom.: winkelier; beroep vader bruid:
      > arbeider; bruidegom 24 jaar; bruid 21 jaar
      >
      > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Huwelijk
      > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
      > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
      > Soort akte: Huwelijksakte
      > Aktenummer: 26
      > Datum: 19-10-1876
      > Bruidegom Wessel Zuidema
      > Geboorteplaats: Spetzerfehn, Dld
      > Bruid Jantjen Tielman
      > Geboorteplaats: Meeden
      > Vader bruidegom Hinrich Sickes Zuidema
      > Moeder bruidegom Peetje Wessels
      > Vader bruid Kornelijs Berends Tielman
      > Moeder bruid Antje Geerts Pathuis
      > Nadere informatie beroep bruidegom: landbouwer; bruidegom 55 jaar;
      > bruid 49 jaar
      >
      > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
      > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
      > Algemeen Gemeente: Meeden
      > Soort akte: overlijden
      > Aktenummer: 21
      > Aangiftedatum: 15-09-1890
      > Overledene Wessel Hindriks Zuidema
      > Geslacht: M
      > Overlijdensdatum: 14-09-1890
      > Leeftijd: 69
      > Overlijdensplaats: Heerweweg gem. Meeden
      > Vader NN
      > Moeder NN
      > Partner Jantje Tielman
      > Relatie: echtgenoot
      > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Baijbaad Duitsland; beroep overl.:
      daglooner
      >
      >
      > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
      > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
      > Algemeen Gemeente: Meeden
      > Soort akte: overlijden
      > Aktenummer: 32
      > Aangiftedatum: 29-12-1894
      > Overledene Jantjen Tielman
      > Geslacht: V
      > Overlijdensdatum: 27-12-1894
      > Leeftijd: 67
      > Overlijdensplaats: Heereweg gem. Meeden
      > Vader NN
      > Moeder NN
      > Partner Wessel Zuidema
      > Relatie: weduwe
      > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Meeden; beroep overl.: koopvrouw
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
      > -----------------------------
      > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites
      > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel
      free
      > to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666)
      > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean
      > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch
      > http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen
      > and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary
      > http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea
      > through Western Cartographic eyes
      > http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in
      Suwon
      > http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures
      > http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in
      Pusan (1797)
      > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/ Genealogy
      > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/phorum Bulletin board for Korean
      studies
      >
    • Reinder Pieters
      Beste Henny, zijn ze wel getrouwd geweest (of hebben ze dat misschien in Duitsland gedaan?). In elk geval is er ruzie in de familie geweest. Zowel zoon als
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 7, 2008
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        Beste Henny,

        zijn ze wel getrouwd geweest (of hebben ze dat misschien in Duitsland
        gedaan?). In elk geval is er ruzie in de familie geweest. Zowel zoon
        als vader (her) trouwen in 1876. Alleen noemt de zoon zijn vader niet
        bij de huwelijksakte. Ook bij zijn overlijden is deze plek niet
        ingevuld. Vreemd, kan een ambtenaar zo maar de naam van de vader
        weglaten? Ze woonden in hetzelfde dorp en zo groot is Oude Pekela toch
        ook weer niet.

        mvg

        Reinder
      • Henny Savenije
        Hallo Gerrit en Bert Of ze getrouwd waren is nog maar de vraag, maar ik heb gewoon een rekenfout gemaakt. Bedankt voor het meedenken. ... Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 7, 2008
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          Hallo Gerrit en Bert

          Of ze getrouwd waren is nog maar de vraag, maar ik heb gewoon een
          rekenfout gemaakt. Bedankt voor het meedenken.


          At 12:00 PM 1/7/2008 +0000, you wrote:

          >Henny
          >Ik denk dat Wessel Hindriks Zuidema de juiste is. Maar bij welk kind
          >is Wessel bij jou dan eerst 10?. Het eerste kind wat mij bekend is,
          >is Hendrik geb. circa 1840/1841. Bij het huwelijk met Magritha
          >(waarschijnlijk in 1839/1840 in Duitsland)is Wessel(geb. circa 1821-
          >overl. 14-9-1890 op 69 jarige leeftijd) dan minstens 18 of 19.
          >m.v.g.
          >Bert Spelde
          >
          >
          >--- In groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com, Henny Savenije <adam-
          >eve@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Een interessant probleem. Magrieta Sikkos, trouwt met Jacob Jans
          > > Busscher Hartman in 1835, Hij overlijd al snel in 1838. Dan heeft
          >zij
          > > een 4 tal kinderen bij een Wessel Zuidema, maar overlijdt in 1876
          >als
          > > weduwe van Jacob Hartman. Wessel Zuidema wordt nergens meer genoemd.
          > >
          > > De enige Wessel Zuidema die in aanmerking komt is een Wessel
          >Hindriks
          > > Zuidema die in het jaar van haar overlijden trouwt met een Jantjen
          > > Tielman, maar die is eigenlijk te jong, want dat zou betekenen dat
          > > hij zijn eerste kind kreeg op 10 jarige leeftijd.
          > >
          > > Wie weet wie de juiste Wessel Zuidema is.
          > >
          > > Meer informatie op
          > > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/tng/getperson.php?
          >personID=I56760&tree=savenije
          > > en beneden.
          > >
          > >
          > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
          > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
          > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
          > > Soort akte: overlijden
          > > Aktenummer: 35
          > > Aangiftedatum: 13-04-1876
          > > Overledene Magrieta Zuidema
          > > Geslacht: V
          > > Overlijdensdatum: 12-04-1876
          > > Leeftijd: 62
          > > Overlijdensplaats: Oude Pekela
          > > Vader Sikko Harms Zuidema
          > > Moeder Harmke Hinderks
          > > Partner Jacob Busscher Hartman
          > > Relatie: weduwe
          > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Meeden
          > >
          > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Huwelijk
          > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
          > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
          > > Soort akte: Huwelijksakte
          > > Aktenummer: 11
          > > Datum: 21-04-1835
          > > Bruidegom Jacob Jans Busscher Hartman
          > > Geboortedatum: 14-09-1810
          > > Geboorteplaats: Nieuw Pekela
          > > Bruid Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema
          > > Geboortedatum: 04-06-1813
          > > Geboorteplaats: Meeden
          > > Vader bruidegom Marten Hartman
          > > Moeder bruidegom Margie Ritmers
          > > Vader bruid Sikko Harms Zuidema
          > > Moeder bruid Harmke Hinderks
          > > Nadere informatie beroep bruidegom: inl. kramer; beroep bruid: inl.
          > > kraamster; beroep vader bruidegom.: winkelier; beroep vader bruid:
          > > arbeider; bruidegom 24 jaar; bruid 21 jaar
          > >
          > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Huwelijk
          > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
          > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
          > > Soort akte: Huwelijksakte
          > > Aktenummer: 26
          > > Datum: 19-10-1876
          > > Bruidegom Wessel Zuidema
          > > Geboorteplaats: Spetzerfehn, Dld
          > > Bruid Jantjen Tielman
          > > Geboorteplaats: Meeden
          > > Vader bruidegom Hinrich Sickes Zuidema
          > > Moeder bruidegom Peetje Wessels
          > > Vader bruid Kornelijs Berends Tielman
          > > Moeder bruid Antje Geerts Pathuis
          > > Nadere informatie beroep bruidegom: landbouwer; bruidegom 55 jaar;
          > > bruid 49 jaar
          > >
          > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
          > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
          > > Algemeen Gemeente: Meeden
          > > Soort akte: overlijden
          > > Aktenummer: 21
          > > Aangiftedatum: 15-09-1890
          > > Overledene Wessel Hindriks Zuidema
          > > Geslacht: M
          > > Overlijdensdatum: 14-09-1890
          > > Leeftijd: 69
          > > Overlijdensplaats: Heerweweg gem. Meeden
          > > Vader NN
          > > Moeder NN
          > > Partner Jantje Tielman
          > > Relatie: echtgenoot
          > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Baijbaad Duitsland; beroep overl.:
          >daglooner
          > >
          > >
          > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
          > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
          > > Algemeen Gemeente: Meeden
          > > Soort akte: overlijden
          > > Aktenummer: 32
          > > Aangiftedatum: 29-12-1894
          > > Overledene Jantjen Tielman
          > > Geslacht: V
          > > Overlijdensdatum: 27-12-1894
          > > Leeftijd: 67
          > > Overlijdensplaats: Heereweg gem. Meeden
          > > Vader NN
          > > Moeder NN
          > > Partner Wessel Zuidema
          > > Relatie: weduwe
          > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Meeden; beroep overl.: koopvrouw
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
          > > -----------------------------
          > > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites
          > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel
          >free
          > > to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666)
          > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean
          > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch
          > > http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen
          > > and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary
          > > http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea
          > > through Western Cartographic eyes
          > > http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in
          >Suwon
          > > http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures
          > > http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in
          >Pusan (1797)
          > > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/ Genealogy
          > > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/phorum Bulletin board for Korean
          >studies
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >


          Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
          -----------------------------
          http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites
          http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free
          to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666)
          http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean
          http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch
          http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen
          and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary
          http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea
          through Western Cartographic eyes
          http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon
          http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures
          http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797)
          http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/ Genealogy
          http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/phorum Bulletin board for Korean studies
        • Robb Ouzts
          Henny, I started working on the Zuidema family tonight. When I googled Sikko Harms Zuidema, I came across your email. The LDS IGI has the Sudema family in
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 22, 2008
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            Henny, I started working on the Zuidema family tonight. When I
            googled Sikko Harms Zuidema, I came across your email. The LDS IGI
            has the Sudema family in Spetzerfehn, Germany. Wessel was part of
            this family. I believe he has 6 children with his aunt: Magrietha
            Sikkes Zuidema. I have seen a few uncles marry their nieces (and
            this doesn't mean cousin), but this is the first relationship I have
            come across between an aunt and her nephew (brother's son). Wessel's
            father was Hindrik Sikkes Zuidema (Sudema in the German), brother to
            Magrietha. Note the first son was named for Wessel's father, and the
            only daughter for his mother. Since uncles could marry their nieces,
            I don't see why aunts couldn't marry their nephews. Thus I don't
            know why Wessel & Magrietha didn't marry.

            Here is a link to the info I found & put on my site:
            http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?
            op=GET&db=rawboots&id=I169187

            mvg,
            Robb.


            --- In groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com, Henny Savenije <adam-
            eve@...> wrote:
            >
            > Een interessant probleem. Magrieta Sikkos, trouwt met Jacob Jans
            > Busscher Hartman in 1835, Hij overlijd al snel in 1838. Dan heeft
            zij
            > een 4 tal kinderen bij een Wessel Zuidema, maar overlijdt in 1876
            als
            > weduwe van Jacob Hartman. Wessel Zuidema wordt nergens meer genoemd.
            >
            > De enige Wessel Zuidema die in aanmerking komt is een Wessel
            Hindriks
            > Zuidema die in het jaar van haar overlijden trouwt met een Jantjen
            > Tielman, maar die is eigenlijk te jong, want dat zou betekenen dat
            > hij zijn eerste kind kreeg op 10 jarige leeftijd.
            >
            > Wie weet wie de juiste Wessel Zuidema is.
            >
            > Meer informatie op
            > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/tng/getperson.php?
            personID=I56760&tree=savenije
            > en beneden.
            >
            >
            > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
            > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
            > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
            > Soort akte: overlijden
            > Aktenummer: 35
            > Aangiftedatum: 13-04-1876
            > Overledene Magrieta Zuidema
            > Geslacht: V
            > Overlijdensdatum: 12-04-1876
            > Leeftijd: 62
            > Overlijdensplaats: Oude Pekela
            > Vader Sikko Harms Zuidema
            > Moeder Harmke Hinderks
            > Partner Jacob Busscher Hartman
            > Relatie: weduwe
            > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Meeden
            >
            > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Huwelijk
            > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
            > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
            > Soort akte: Huwelijksakte
            > Aktenummer: 11
            > Datum: 21-04-1835
            > Bruidegom Jacob Jans Busscher Hartman
            > Geboortedatum: 14-09-1810
            > Geboorteplaats: Nieuw Pekela
            > Bruid Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema
            > Geboortedatum: 04-06-1813
            > Geboorteplaats: Meeden
            > Vader bruidegom Marten Hartman
            > Moeder bruidegom Margie Ritmers
            > Vader bruid Sikko Harms Zuidema
            > Moeder bruid Harmke Hinderks
            > Nadere informatie beroep bruidegom: inl. kramer; beroep bruid: inl.
            > kraamster; beroep vader bruidegom.: winkelier; beroep vader bruid:
            > arbeider; bruidegom 24 jaar; bruid 21 jaar
            >
            > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Huwelijk
            > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
            > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
            > Soort akte: Huwelijksakte
            > Aktenummer: 26
            > Datum: 19-10-1876
            > Bruidegom Wessel Zuidema
            > Geboorteplaats: Spetzerfehn, Dld
            > Bruid Jantjen Tielman
            > Geboorteplaats: Meeden
            > Vader bruidegom Hinrich Sickes Zuidema
            > Moeder bruidegom Peetje Wessels
            > Vader bruid Kornelijs Berends Tielman
            > Moeder bruid Antje Geerts Pathuis
            > Nadere informatie beroep bruidegom: landbouwer; bruidegom 55 jaar;
            > bruid 49 jaar
            >
            > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
            > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
            > Algemeen Gemeente: Meeden
            > Soort akte: overlijden
            > Aktenummer: 21
            > Aangiftedatum: 15-09-1890
            > Overledene Wessel Hindriks Zuidema
            > Geslacht: M
            > Overlijdensdatum: 14-09-1890
            > Leeftijd: 69
            > Overlijdensplaats: Heerweweg gem. Meeden
            > Vader NN
            > Moeder NN
            > Partner Jantje Tielman
            > Relatie: echtgenoot
            > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Baijbaad Duitsland; beroep overl.:
            daglooner
            >
            >
            > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
            > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
            > Algemeen Gemeente: Meeden
            > Soort akte: overlijden
            > Aktenummer: 32
            > Aangiftedatum: 29-12-1894
            > Overledene Jantjen Tielman
            > Geslacht: V
            > Overlijdensdatum: 27-12-1894
            > Leeftijd: 67
            > Overlijdensplaats: Heereweg gem. Meeden
            > Vader NN
            > Moeder NN
            > Partner Wessel Zuidema
            > Relatie: weduwe
            > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Meeden; beroep overl.: koopvrouw
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
            > -----------------------------
            > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites
            > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel
            free
            > to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666)
            > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean
            > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch
            > http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen
            > and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary
            > http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea
            > through Western Cartographic eyes
            > http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in
            Suwon
            > http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures
            > http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in
            Pusan (1797)
            > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/ Genealogy
            > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/phorum Bulletin board for Korean
            studies
            >
          • Brouwers
            Could uncles related by blood really marry nieces? full brother to the father or mother of the niece or were they brother-in-law to the father or mother? or
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 23, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Could uncles related by blood really marry nieces? full brother to the father or mother of the niece or were they brother-in-law to the father or mother? or half brother in such a way that it was not blood. I know that to the certain (?) degree blood family could not marry. You come across some that are iffy by cousins but there is always at least one generation seprating them , second cousins, and they need all kinds of dispensatios. If Margrieta was full blood aunt to Wessel they could not marry. The only way it could happen would be if the families lived in differant cities and no one was aware they were family, specially in Germany were two family members could have differnt last names thru property I could see this happening some times. Anna Marie
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Henny Savenije
              To: groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 6:37 AM
              Subject: Re: [groningen-genealogy] Re: Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema


              Robb,

              I have to learn to become less greedy. I realized when I integrated
              all the info that I already had everything and had to delete most of it again
              http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/tng/register.php?personID=I117130&tree=savenije&generations=15

              In some cases I even suspect that some of it comes from me.

              Which reminds me. By merging things I realized that very often, your
              data differs a few days from mine (sometimes a few years)

              Which forces me to check things and I realized that very often your
              sources use the registration date as the birth, marriage, or death date.

              I don't think it's very important but I guess you should know.

              Cheers

              At 11:58 PM 6/22/2008, you wrote:

              >Henny, I started working on the Zuidema family tonight. When I
              >googled Sikko Harms Zuidema, I came across your email. The LDS IGI
              >has the Sudema family in Spetzerfehn, Germany. Wessel was part of
              >this family. I believe he has 6 children with his aunt: Magrietha
              >Sikkes Zuidema. I have seen a few uncles marry their nieces (and
              >this doesn't mean cousin), but this is the first relationship I have
              >come across between an aunt and her nephew (brother's son). Wessel's
              >father was Hindrik Sikkes Zuidema (Sudema in the German), brother to
              >Magrietha. Note the first son was named for Wessel's father, and the
              >only daughter for his mother. Since uncles could marry their nieces,
              >I don't see why aunts couldn't marry their nephews. Thus I don't
              >know why Wessel & Magrietha didn't marry.
              >
              >Here is a link to the info I found & put on my site:
              >http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?
              >op=GET&db=rawboots&id=I169187
              >
              >mvg,
              >Robb.
              >
              >
              >--- In groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com, Henny Savenije <adam-
              >eve@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Een interessant probleem. Magrieta Sikkos, trouwt met Jacob Jans
              > > Busscher Hartman in 1835, Hij overlijd al snel in 1838. Dan heeft
              >zij
              > > een 4 tal kinderen bij een Wessel Zuidema, maar overlijdt in 1876
              >als
              > > weduwe van Jacob Hartman. Wessel Zuidema wordt nergens meer genoemd.
              > >
              > > De enige Wessel Zuidema die in aanmerking komt is een Wessel
              >Hindriks
              > > Zuidema die in het jaar van haar overlijden trouwt met een Jantjen
              > > Tielman, maar die is eigenlijk te jong, want dat zou betekenen dat
              > > hij zijn eerste kind kreeg op 10 jarige leeftijd.
              > >
              > > Wie weet wie de juiste Wessel Zuidema is.
              > >
              > > Meer informatie op
              > > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/tng/getperson.php?
              >personID=I56760&tree=savenije
              > > en beneden.
              > >
              > >
              > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
              > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
              > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
              > > Soort akte: overlijden
              > > Aktenummer: 35
              > > Aangiftedatum: 13-04-1876
              > > Overledene Magrieta Zuidema
              > > Geslacht: V
              > > Overlijdensdatum: 12-04-1876
              > > Leeftijd: 62
              > > Overlijdensplaats: Oude Pekela
              > > Vader Sikko Harms Zuidema
              > > Moeder Harmke Hinderks
              > > Partner Jacob Busscher Hartman
              > > Relatie: weduwe
              > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Meeden
              > >
              > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Huwelijk
              > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
              > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
              > > Soort akte: Huwelijksakte
              > > Aktenummer: 11
              > > Datum: 21-04-1835
              > > Bruidegom Jacob Jans Busscher Hartman
              > > Geboortedatum: 14-09-1810
              > > Geboorteplaats: Nieuw Pekela
              > > Bruid Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema
              > > Geboortedatum: 04-06-1813
              > > Geboorteplaats: Meeden
              > > Vader bruidegom Marten Hartman
              > > Moeder bruidegom Margie Ritmers
              > > Vader bruid Sikko Harms Zuidema
              > > Moeder bruid Harmke Hinderks
              > > Nadere informatie beroep bruidegom: inl. kramer; beroep bruid: inl.
              > > kraamster; beroep vader bruidegom.: winkelier; beroep vader bruid:
              > > arbeider; bruidegom 24 jaar; bruid 21 jaar
              > >
              > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Huwelijk
              > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
              > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
              > > Soort akte: Huwelijksakte
              > > Aktenummer: 26
              > > Datum: 19-10-1876
              > > Bruidegom Wessel Zuidema
              > > Geboorteplaats: Spetzerfehn, Dld
              > > Bruid Jantjen Tielman
              > > Geboorteplaats: Meeden
              > > Vader bruidegom Hinrich Sickes Zuidema
              > > Moeder bruidegom Peetje Wessels
              > > Vader bruid Kornelijs Berends Tielman
              > > Moeder bruid Antje Geerts Pathuis
              > > Nadere informatie beroep bruidegom: landbouwer; bruidegom 55 jaar;
              > > bruid 49 jaar
              > >
              > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
              > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
              > > Algemeen Gemeente: Meeden
              > > Soort akte: overlijden
              > > Aktenummer: 21
              > > Aangiftedatum: 15-09-1890
              > > Overledene Wessel Hindriks Zuidema
              > > Geslacht: M
              > > Overlijdensdatum: 14-09-1890
              > > Leeftijd: 69
              > > Overlijdensplaats: Heerweweg gem. Meeden
              > > Vader NN
              > > Moeder NN
              > > Partner Jantje Tielman
              > > Relatie: echtgenoot
              > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Baijbaad Duitsland; beroep overl.:
              >daglooner
              > >
              > >
              > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
              > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
              > > Algemeen Gemeente: Meeden
              > > Soort akte: overlijden
              > > Aktenummer: 32
              > > Aangiftedatum: 29-12-1894
              > > Overledene Jantjen Tielman
              > > Geslacht: V
              > > Overlijdensdatum: 27-12-1894
              > > Leeftijd: 67
              > > Overlijdensplaats: Heereweg gem. Meeden
              > > Vader NN
              > > Moeder NN
              > > Partner Wessel Zuidema
              > > Relatie: weduwe
              > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Meeden; beroep overl.: koopvrouw
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
              > > -----------------------------
              > > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites
              > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel
              >free
              > > to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666)
              > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean
              > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch
              > > http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen
              > > and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary
              > > http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea
              > > through Western Cartographic eyes
              > > http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in
              >Suwon
              > > http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures
              > > http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in
              >Pusan (1797)
              > > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/ Genealogy
              > > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/phorum Bulletin board for Korean
              >studies
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >------------------------------------
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >

              Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
              -----------------------------
              http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites
              http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free
              to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666)
              http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean
              http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch
              http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen
              and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary
              http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea
              through Western Cartographic eyes
              http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon
              http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures
              http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797)
              http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/ Genealogy
              http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/phorum Bulletin board for Korean studies





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Robb Ouzts
              I have Hindrik Alberts Zuiderweg married 2nd with Maria Groen on 1.4.1863 in Veendam. Maria s mother was Trientje Alberts Zuiderweg, full sister of Hindrik,
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 23, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                I have Hindrik Alberts Zuiderweg married 2nd with Maria Groen on 1.4.1863 in Veendam. Maria's mother was Trientje Alberts Zuiderweg, full sister of Hindrik, both the children of Albert Jakobs Zuiderweg & Elisabeth Daniels Kotter.

                A 2nd couple has a living son, so I don't think it would be right to bring it before the group. I am pretty sure I have a 3rd couple in my file, but I can't find them right now. I have roughly 160,000 names, so some get lost in the mix. So it wasn't common, but it does seem to have happened. Since the Zuiderweg family lived in Veendam, and the marriages took place there, I think it unlikely that it wasn't known they were related.

                groetjes, Robb.

                Brouwers <anmaristin@...> wrote:
                Could uncles related by blood really marry nieces? full brother to the father or mother of the niece or were they brother-in-law to the father or mother? or half brother in such a way that it was not blood. I know that to the certain (?) degree blood family could not marry. You come across some that are iffy by cousins but there is always at least one generation seprating them , second cousins, and they need all kinds of dispensatios. If Margrieta was full blood aunt to Wessel they could not marry. The only way it could happen would be if the families lived in differant cities and no one was aware they were family, specially in Germany were two family members could have differnt last names thru property I could see this happening some times. Anna Marie
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Henny Savenije
                To: groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 6:37 AM
                Subject: Re: [groningen-genealogy] Re: Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema

                Robb,

                I have to learn to become less greedy. I realized when I integrated
                all the info that I already had everything and had to delete most of it again
                http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/tng/register.php?personID=I117130&tree=savenije&generations=15

                In some cases I even suspect that some of it comes from me.

                Which reminds me. By merging things I realized that very often, your
                data differs a few days from mine (sometimes a few years)

                Which forces me to check things and I realized that very often your
                sources use the registration date as the birth, marriage, or death date.

                I don't think it's very important but I guess you should know.

                Cheers

                At 11:58 PM 6/22/2008, you wrote:

                >Henny, I started working on the Zuidema family tonight. When I
                >googled Sikko Harms Zuidema, I came across your email. The LDS IGI
                >has the Sudema family in Spetzerfehn, Germany. Wessel was part of
                >this family. I believe he has 6 children with his aunt: Magrietha
                >Sikkes Zuidema. I have seen a few uncles marry their nieces (and
                >this doesn't mean cousin), but this is the first relationship I have
                >come across between an aunt and her nephew (brother's son). Wessel's
                >father was Hindrik Sikkes Zuidema (Sudema in the German), brother to
                >Magrietha. Note the first son was named for Wessel's father, and the
                >only daughter for his mother. Since uncles could marry their nieces,
                >I don't see why aunts couldn't marry their nephews. Thus I don't
                >know why Wessel & Magrietha didn't marry.
                >
                >Here is a link to the info I found & put on my site:
                >http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?
                >op=GET&db=rawboots&id=I169187
                >
                >mvg,
                >Robb.
                >
                >
                >--- In groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com, Henny Savenije <adam-
                >eve@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Een interessant probleem. Magrieta Sikkos, trouwt met Jacob Jans
                > > Busscher Hartman in 1835, Hij overlijd al snel in 1838. Dan heeft
                >zij
                > > een 4 tal kinderen bij een Wessel Zuidema, maar overlijdt in 1876
                >als
                > > weduwe van Jacob Hartman. Wessel Zuidema wordt nergens meer genoemd.
                > >
                > > De enige Wessel Zuidema die in aanmerking komt is een Wessel
                >Hindriks
                > > Zuidema die in het jaar van haar overlijden trouwt met een Jantjen
                > > Tielman, maar die is eigenlijk te jong, want dat zou betekenen dat
                > > hij zijn eerste kind kreeg op 10 jarige leeftijd.
                > >
                > > Wie weet wie de juiste Wessel Zuidema is.
                > >
                > > Meer informatie op
                > > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/tng/getperson.php?
                >personID=I56760&tree=savenije
                > > en beneden.
                > >
                > >
                > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
                > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
                > > Soort akte: overlijden
                > > Aktenummer: 35
                > > Aangiftedatum: 13-04-1876
                > > Overledene Magrieta Zuidema
                > > Geslacht: V
                > > Overlijdensdatum: 12-04-1876
                > > Leeftijd: 62
                > > Overlijdensplaats: Oude Pekela
                > > Vader Sikko Harms Zuidema
                > > Moeder Harmke Hinderks
                > > Partner Jacob Busscher Hartman
                > > Relatie: weduwe
                > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Meeden
                > >
                > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Huwelijk
                > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
                > > Soort akte: Huwelijksakte
                > > Aktenummer: 11
                > > Datum: 21-04-1835
                > > Bruidegom Jacob Jans Busscher Hartman
                > > Geboortedatum: 14-09-1810
                > > Geboorteplaats: Nieuw Pekela
                > > Bruid Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema
                > > Geboortedatum: 04-06-1813
                > > Geboorteplaats: Meeden
                > > Vader bruidegom Marten Hartman
                > > Moeder bruidegom Margie Ritmers
                > > Vader bruid Sikko Harms Zuidema
                > > Moeder bruid Harmke Hinderks
                > > Nadere informatie beroep bruidegom: inl. kramer; beroep bruid: inl.
                > > kraamster; beroep vader bruidegom.: winkelier; beroep vader bruid:
                > > arbeider; bruidegom 24 jaar; bruid 21 jaar
                > >
                > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Huwelijk
                > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
                > > Soort akte: Huwelijksakte
                > > Aktenummer: 26
                > > Datum: 19-10-1876
                > > Bruidegom Wessel Zuidema
                > > Geboorteplaats: Spetzerfehn, Dld
                > > Bruid Jantjen Tielman
                > > Geboorteplaats: Meeden
                > > Vader bruidegom Hinrich Sickes Zuidema
                > > Moeder bruidegom Peetje Wessels
                > > Vader bruid Kornelijs Berends Tielman
                > > Moeder bruid Antje Geerts Pathuis
                > > Nadere informatie beroep bruidegom: landbouwer; bruidegom 55 jaar;
                > > bruid 49 jaar
                > >
                > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
                > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                > > Algemeen Gemeente: Meeden
                > > Soort akte: overlijden
                > > Aktenummer: 21
                > > Aangiftedatum: 15-09-1890
                > > Overledene Wessel Hindriks Zuidema
                > > Geslacht: M
                > > Overlijdensdatum: 14-09-1890
                > > Leeftijd: 69
                > > Overlijdensplaats: Heerweweg gem. Meeden
                > > Vader NN
                > > Moeder NN
                > > Partner Jantje Tielman
                > > Relatie: echtgenoot
                > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Baijbaad Duitsland; beroep overl.:
                >daglooner
                > >
                > >
                > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
                > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                > > Algemeen Gemeente: Meeden
                > > Soort akte: overlijden
                > > Aktenummer: 32
                > > Aangiftedatum: 29-12-1894
                > > Overledene Jantjen Tielman
                > > Geslacht: V
                > > Overlijdensdatum: 27-12-1894
                > > Leeftijd: 67
                > > Overlijdensplaats: Heereweg gem. Meeden
                > > Vader NN
                > > Moeder NN
                > > Partner Wessel Zuidema
                > > Relatie: weduwe
                > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Meeden; beroep overl.: koopvrouw
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
                > > -----------------------------
                > > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites
                > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel
                >free
                > > to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666)
                > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean
                > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch
                > > http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen
                > > and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary
                > > http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea
                > > through Western Cartographic eyes
                > > http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in
                >Suwon
                > > http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures
                > > http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in
                >Pusan (1797)
                > > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/ Genealogy
                > > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/phorum Bulletin board for Korean
                >studies
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >------------------------------------
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >

                Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
                -----------------------------
                http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites
                http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free
                to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666)
                http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean
                http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch
                http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen
                and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary
                http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea
                through Western Cartographic eyes
                http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon
                http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures
                http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797)
                http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/ Genealogy
                http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/phorum Bulletin board for Korean studies

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Brouwers
                Could it have been that the persons in question were of such an age that the possiblity of childern was non-existain.? and that is why they saw it through the
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 23, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Could it have been that the persons in question were of such an age that the possiblity of childern was non-existain.? and that is why they saw it through the fingers. When my gr. gr. grandfather remarried his sister in-law in 1834 Gron. he had to get dispensation from the king to marry. I also hear of a coulple that celebrated their 50 th wedding anniversary when it was discovered they were blood related, first cousins, they themselves never knew, both being half-orphened at a young age in differant cities, and the parents having very commom names, the marriage was declared nul and void and the childern illegtimate, they appealed and what the outcome of that appeal was I don't remember or I never heard, but I know it caused quite of bit of sensation for the neighborhood and confusion and anger for the couple and their families (the childern and grandchildern of the pair). Maybe in Veendam the civil servants were sleeping on the job. Anna Marie
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Robb Ouzts
                  To: groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:29 AM
                  Subject: Re: [groningen-genealogy] Re: Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema


                  I have Hindrik Alberts Zuiderweg married 2nd with Maria Groen on 1.4.1863 in Veendam. Maria's mother was Trientje Alberts Zuiderweg, full sister of Hindrik, both the children of Albert Jakobs Zuiderweg & Elisabeth Daniels Kotter.

                  A 2nd couple has a living son, so I don't think it would be right to bring it before the group. I am pretty sure I have a 3rd couple in my file, but I can't find them right now. I have roughly 160,000 names, so some get lost in the mix. So it wasn't common, but it does seem to have happened. Since the Zuiderweg family lived in Veendam, and the marriages took place there, I think it unlikely that it wasn't known they were related.

                  groetjes, Robb.

                  Brouwers <anmaristin@...> wrote:
                  Could uncles related by blood really marry nieces? full brother to the father or mother of the niece or were they brother-in-law to the father or mother? or half brother in such a way that it was not blood. I know that to the certain (?) degree blood family could not marry. You come across some that are iffy by cousins but there is always at least one generation seprating them , second cousins, and they need all kinds of dispensatios. If Margrieta was full blood aunt to Wessel they could not marry. The only way it could happen would be if the families lived in differant cities and no one was aware they were family, specially in Germany were two family members could have differnt last names thru property I could see this happening some times. Anna Marie
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Henny Savenije
                  To: groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 6:37 AM
                  Subject: Re: [groningen-genealogy] Re: Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema

                  Robb,

                  I have to learn to become less greedy. I realized when I integrated
                  all the info that I already had everything and had to delete most of it again
                  http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/tng/register.php?personID=I117130&tree=savenije&generations=15

                  In some cases I even suspect that some of it comes from me.

                  Which reminds me. By merging things I realized that very often, your
                  data differs a few days from mine (sometimes a few years)

                  Which forces me to check things and I realized that very often your
                  sources use the registration date as the birth, marriage, or death date.

                  I don't think it's very important but I guess you should know.

                  Cheers

                  At 11:58 PM 6/22/2008, you wrote:

                  >Henny, I started working on the Zuidema family tonight. When I
                  >googled Sikko Harms Zuidema, I came across your email. The LDS IGI
                  >has the Sudema family in Spetzerfehn, Germany. Wessel was part of
                  >this family. I believe he has 6 children with his aunt: Magrietha
                  >Sikkes Zuidema. I have seen a few uncles marry their nieces (and
                  >this doesn't mean cousin), but this is the first relationship I have
                  >come across between an aunt and her nephew (brother's son). Wessel's
                  >father was Hindrik Sikkes Zuidema (Sudema in the German), brother to
                  >Magrietha. Note the first son was named for Wessel's father, and the
                  >only daughter for his mother. Since uncles could marry their nieces,
                  >I don't see why aunts couldn't marry their nephews. Thus I don't
                  >know why Wessel & Magrietha didn't marry.
                  >
                  >Here is a link to the info I found & put on my site:
                  >http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?
                  >op=GET&db=rawboots&id=I169187
                  >
                  >mvg,
                  >Robb.
                  >
                  >
                  >--- In groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com, Henny Savenije <adam-
                  >eve@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Een interessant probleem. Magrieta Sikkos, trouwt met Jacob Jans
                  > > Busscher Hartman in 1835, Hij overlijd al snel in 1838. Dan heeft
                  >zij
                  > > een 4 tal kinderen bij een Wessel Zuidema, maar overlijdt in 1876
                  >als
                  > > weduwe van Jacob Hartman. Wessel Zuidema wordt nergens meer genoemd.
                  > >
                  > > De enige Wessel Zuidema die in aanmerking komt is een Wessel
                  >Hindriks
                  > > Zuidema die in het jaar van haar overlijden trouwt met een Jantjen
                  > > Tielman, maar die is eigenlijk te jong, want dat zou betekenen dat
                  > > hij zijn eerste kind kreeg op 10 jarige leeftijd.
                  > >
                  > > Wie weet wie de juiste Wessel Zuidema is.
                  > >
                  > > Meer informatie op
                  > > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/tng/getperson.php?
                  >personID=I56760&tree=savenije
                  > > en beneden.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
                  > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                  > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
                  > > Soort akte: overlijden
                  > > Aktenummer: 35
                  > > Aangiftedatum: 13-04-1876
                  > > Overledene Magrieta Zuidema
                  > > Geslacht: V
                  > > Overlijdensdatum: 12-04-1876
                  > > Leeftijd: 62
                  > > Overlijdensplaats: Oude Pekela
                  > > Vader Sikko Harms Zuidema
                  > > Moeder Harmke Hinderks
                  > > Partner Jacob Busscher Hartman
                  > > Relatie: weduwe
                  > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Meeden
                  > >
                  > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Huwelijk
                  > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                  > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
                  > > Soort akte: Huwelijksakte
                  > > Aktenummer: 11
                  > > Datum: 21-04-1835
                  > > Bruidegom Jacob Jans Busscher Hartman
                  > > Geboortedatum: 14-09-1810
                  > > Geboorteplaats: Nieuw Pekela
                  > > Bruid Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema
                  > > Geboortedatum: 04-06-1813
                  > > Geboorteplaats: Meeden
                  > > Vader bruidegom Marten Hartman
                  > > Moeder bruidegom Margie Ritmers
                  > > Vader bruid Sikko Harms Zuidema
                  > > Moeder bruid Harmke Hinderks
                  > > Nadere informatie beroep bruidegom: inl. kramer; beroep bruid: inl.
                  > > kraamster; beroep vader bruidegom.: winkelier; beroep vader bruid:
                  > > arbeider; bruidegom 24 jaar; bruid 21 jaar
                  > >
                  > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Huwelijk
                  > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                  > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
                  > > Soort akte: Huwelijksakte
                  > > Aktenummer: 26
                  > > Datum: 19-10-1876
                  > > Bruidegom Wessel Zuidema
                  > > Geboorteplaats: Spetzerfehn, Dld
                  > > Bruid Jantjen Tielman
                  > > Geboorteplaats: Meeden
                  > > Vader bruidegom Hinrich Sickes Zuidema
                  > > Moeder bruidegom Peetje Wessels
                  > > Vader bruid Kornelijs Berends Tielman
                  > > Moeder bruid Antje Geerts Pathuis
                  > > Nadere informatie beroep bruidegom: landbouwer; bruidegom 55 jaar;
                  > > bruid 49 jaar
                  > >
                  > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
                  > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                  > > Algemeen Gemeente: Meeden
                  > > Soort akte: overlijden
                  > > Aktenummer: 21
                  > > Aangiftedatum: 15-09-1890
                  > > Overledene Wessel Hindriks Zuidema
                  > > Geslacht: M
                  > > Overlijdensdatum: 14-09-1890
                  > > Leeftijd: 69
                  > > Overlijdensplaats: Heerweweg gem. Meeden
                  > > Vader NN
                  > > Moeder NN
                  > > Partner Jantje Tielman
                  > > Relatie: echtgenoot
                  > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Baijbaad Duitsland; beroep overl.:
                  >daglooner
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
                  > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                  > > Algemeen Gemeente: Meeden
                  > > Soort akte: overlijden
                  > > Aktenummer: 32
                  > > Aangiftedatum: 29-12-1894
                  > > Overledene Jantjen Tielman
                  > > Geslacht: V
                  > > Overlijdensdatum: 27-12-1894
                  > > Leeftijd: 67
                  > > Overlijdensplaats: Heereweg gem. Meeden
                  > > Vader NN
                  > > Moeder NN
                  > > Partner Wessel Zuidema
                  > > Relatie: weduwe
                  > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Meeden; beroep overl.: koopvrouw
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
                  > > -----------------------------
                  > > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites
                  > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel
                  >free
                  > > to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666)
                  > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean
                  > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch
                  > > http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen
                  > > and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary
                  > > http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea
                  > > through Western Cartographic eyes
                  > > http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in
                  >Suwon
                  > > http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures
                  > > http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in
                  >Pusan (1797)
                  > > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/ Genealogy
                  > > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/phorum Bulletin board for Korean
                  >studies
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >------------------------------------
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
                  -----------------------------
                  http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites
                  http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free
                  to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666)
                  http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean
                  http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch
                  http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen
                  and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary
                  http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea
                  through Western Cartographic eyes
                  http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon
                  http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures
                  http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797)
                  http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/ Genealogy
                  http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/phorum Bulletin board for Korean studies

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Robb Ouzts
                  No, they had 2 children that I know of. See my link for the descendants I know of:
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 23, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    No, they had 2 children that I know of. See my link for the descendants I know of: http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=rawboots&id=I16405

                    It could be as you say, someone turned a blind eye in Veendam.
                    Robb.

                    Brouwers <anmaristin@...> wrote:
                    Could it have been that the persons in question were of such an age that the possiblity of childern was non-existain.? and that is why they saw it through the fingers. When my gr. gr. grandfather remarried his sister in-law in 1834 Gron. he had to get dispensation from the king to marry. I also hear of a coulple that celebrated their 50 th wedding anniversary when it was discovered they were blood related, first cousins, they themselves never knew, both being half-orphened at a young age in differant cities, and the parents having very commom names, the marriage was declared nul and void and the childern illegtimate, they appealed and what the outcome of that appeal was I don't remember or I never heard, but I know it caused quite of bit of sensation for the neighborhood and confusion and anger for the couple and their families (the childern and grandchildern of the pair). Maybe in Veendam the civil servants were sleeping on the job. Anna Marie
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Robb Ouzts
                    To: groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:29 AM
                    Subject: Re: [groningen-genealogy] Re: Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema

                    I have Hindrik Alberts Zuiderweg married 2nd with Maria Groen on 1.4.1863 in Veendam. Maria's mother was Trientje Alberts Zuiderweg, full sister of Hindrik, both the children of Albert Jakobs Zuiderweg & Elisabeth Daniels Kotter.

                    A 2nd couple has a living son, so I don't think it would be right to bring it before the group. I am pretty sure I have a 3rd couple in my file, but I can't find them right now. I have roughly 160,000 names, so some get lost in the mix. So it wasn't common, but it does seem to have happened. Since the Zuiderweg family lived in Veendam, and the marriages took place there, I think it unlikely that it wasn't known they were related.

                    groetjes, Robb.

                    Brouwers <anmaristin@...> wrote:
                    Could uncles related by blood really marry nieces? full brother to the father or mother of the niece or were they brother-in-law to the father or mother? or half brother in such a way that it was not blood. I know that to the certain (?) degree blood family could not marry. You come across some that are iffy by cousins but there is always at least one generation seprating them , second cousins, and they need all kinds of dispensatios. If Margrieta was full blood aunt to Wessel they could not marry. The only way it could happen would be if the families lived in differant cities and no one was aware they were family, specially in Germany were two family members could have differnt last names thru property I could see this happening some times. Anna Marie
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Henny Savenije
                    To: groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 6:37 AM
                    Subject: Re: [groningen-genealogy] Re: Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema

                    Robb,

                    I have to learn to become less greedy. I realized when I integrated
                    all the info that I already had everything and had to delete most of it again
                    http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/tng/register.php?personID=I117130&tree=savenije&generations=15

                    In some cases I even suspect that some of it comes from me.

                    Which reminds me. By merging things I realized that very often, your
                    data differs a few days from mine (sometimes a few years)

                    Which forces me to check things and I realized that very often your
                    sources use the registration date as the birth, marriage, or death date.

                    I don't think it's very important but I guess you should know.

                    Cheers

                    At 11:58 PM 6/22/2008, you wrote:

                    >Henny, I started working on the Zuidema family tonight. When I
                    >googled Sikko Harms Zuidema, I came across your email. The LDS IGI
                    >has the Sudema family in Spetzerfehn, Germany. Wessel was part of
                    >this family. I believe he has 6 children with his aunt: Magrietha
                    >Sikkes Zuidema. I have seen a few uncles marry their nieces (and
                    >this doesn't mean cousin), but this is the first relationship I have
                    >come across between an aunt and her nephew (brother's son). Wessel's
                    >father was Hindrik Sikkes Zuidema (Sudema in the German), brother to
                    >Magrietha. Note the first son was named for Wessel's father, and the
                    >only daughter for his mother. Since uncles could marry their nieces,
                    >I don't see why aunts couldn't marry their nephews. Thus I don't
                    >know why Wessel & Magrietha didn't marry.
                    >
                    >Here is a link to the info I found & put on my site:
                    >http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?
                    >op=GET&db=rawboots&id=I169187
                    >
                    >mvg,
                    >Robb.
                    >
                    >
                    >--- In groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com, Henny Savenije <adam-
                    >eve@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Een interessant probleem. Magrieta Sikkos, trouwt met Jacob Jans
                    > > Busscher Hartman in 1835, Hij overlijd al snel in 1838. Dan heeft
                    >zij
                    > > een 4 tal kinderen bij een Wessel Zuidema, maar overlijdt in 1876
                    >als
                    > > weduwe van Jacob Hartman. Wessel Zuidema wordt nergens meer genoemd.
                    > >
                    > > De enige Wessel Zuidema die in aanmerking komt is een Wessel
                    >Hindriks
                    > > Zuidema die in het jaar van haar overlijden trouwt met een Jantjen
                    > > Tielman, maar die is eigenlijk te jong, want dat zou betekenen dat
                    > > hij zijn eerste kind kreeg op 10 jarige leeftijd.
                    > >
                    > > Wie weet wie de juiste Wessel Zuidema is.
                    > >
                    > > Meer informatie op
                    > > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/tng/getperson.php?
                    >personID=I56760&tree=savenije
                    > > en beneden.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
                    > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                    > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
                    > > Soort akte: overlijden
                    > > Aktenummer: 35
                    > > Aangiftedatum: 13-04-1876
                    > > Overledene Magrieta Zuidema
                    > > Geslacht: V
                    > > Overlijdensdatum: 12-04-1876
                    > > Leeftijd: 62
                    > > Overlijdensplaats: Oude Pekela
                    > > Vader Sikko Harms Zuidema
                    > > Moeder Harmke Hinderks
                    > > Partner Jacob Busscher Hartman
                    > > Relatie: weduwe
                    > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Meeden
                    > >
                    > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Huwelijk
                    > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                    > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
                    > > Soort akte: Huwelijksakte
                    > > Aktenummer: 11
                    > > Datum: 21-04-1835
                    > > Bruidegom Jacob Jans Busscher Hartman
                    > > Geboortedatum: 14-09-1810
                    > > Geboorteplaats: Nieuw Pekela
                    > > Bruid Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema
                    > > Geboortedatum: 04-06-1813
                    > > Geboorteplaats: Meeden
                    > > Vader bruidegom Marten Hartman
                    > > Moeder bruidegom Margie Ritmers
                    > > Vader bruid Sikko Harms Zuidema
                    > > Moeder bruid Harmke Hinderks
                    > > Nadere informatie beroep bruidegom: inl. kramer; beroep bruid: inl.
                    > > kraamster; beroep vader bruidegom.: winkelier; beroep vader bruid:
                    > > arbeider; bruidegom 24 jaar; bruid 21 jaar
                    > >
                    > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Huwelijk
                    > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                    > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
                    > > Soort akte: Huwelijksakte
                    > > Aktenummer: 26
                    > > Datum: 19-10-1876
                    > > Bruidegom Wessel Zuidema
                    > > Geboorteplaats: Spetzerfehn, Dld
                    > > Bruid Jantjen Tielman
                    > > Geboorteplaats: Meeden
                    > > Vader bruidegom Hinrich Sickes Zuidema
                    > > Moeder bruidegom Peetje Wessels
                    > > Vader bruid Kornelijs Berends Tielman
                    > > Moeder bruid Antje Geerts Pathuis
                    > > Nadere informatie beroep bruidegom: landbouwer; bruidegom 55 jaar;
                    > > bruid 49 jaar
                    > >
                    > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
                    > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                    > > Algemeen Gemeente: Meeden
                    > > Soort akte: overlijden
                    > > Aktenummer: 21
                    > > Aangiftedatum: 15-09-1890
                    > > Overledene Wessel Hindriks Zuidema
                    > > Geslacht: M
                    > > Overlijdensdatum: 14-09-1890
                    > > Leeftijd: 69
                    > > Overlijdensplaats: Heerweweg gem. Meeden
                    > > Vader NN
                    > > Moeder NN
                    > > Partner Jantje Tielman
                    > > Relatie: echtgenoot
                    > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Baijbaad Duitsland; beroep overl.:
                    >daglooner
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
                    > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                    > > Algemeen Gemeente: Meeden
                    > > Soort akte: overlijden
                    > > Aktenummer: 32
                    > > Aangiftedatum: 29-12-1894
                    > > Overledene Jantjen Tielman
                    > > Geslacht: V
                    > > Overlijdensdatum: 27-12-1894
                    > > Leeftijd: 67
                    > > Overlijdensplaats: Heereweg gem. Meeden
                    > > Vader NN
                    > > Moeder NN
                    > > Partner Wessel Zuidema
                    > > Relatie: weduwe
                    > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Meeden; beroep overl.: koopvrouw
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
                    > > -----------------------------
                    > > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites
                    > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel
                    >free
                    > > to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666)
                    > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean
                    > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch
                    > > http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen
                    > > and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary
                    > > http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea
                    > > through Western Cartographic eyes
                    > > http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in
                    >Suwon
                    > > http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures
                    > > http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in
                    >Pusan (1797)
                    > > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/ Genealogy
                    > > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/phorum Bulletin board for Korean
                    >studies
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >------------------------------------
                    >
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
                    -----------------------------
                    http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites
                    http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free
                    to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666)
                    http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean
                    http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch
                    http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen
                    and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary
                    http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea
                    through Western Cartographic eyes
                    http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon
                    http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures
                    http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797)
                    http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/ Genealogy
                    http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/phorum Bulletin board for Korean studies

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Henny Savenije
                    Well besides this couple, I have another couple uncle and niece. Also married in Veendam. Maybe that the region needed people so badly that they didn t care??
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 23, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Well besides this couple, I have another couple uncle and niece. Also
                      married in Veendam. Maybe that the region needed people so badly that
                      they didn't care??

                      At 06:00 PM 6/23/2008, you wrote:

                      >Could it have been that the persons in question were of such an
                      >age that the possiblity of childern was non-existain.? and that is
                      >why they saw it through the fingers. When my gr. gr. grandfather
                      >remarried his sister in-law in 1834 Gron. he had to get dispensation
                      >from the king to marry. I also hear of a coulple that celebrated
                      >their 50 th wedding anniversary when it was discovered they were
                      >blood related, first cousins, they themselves never knew, both
                      >being half-orphened at a young age in differant cities, and the
                      >parents having very commom names, the marriage was declared nul and
                      >void and the childern illegtimate, they appealed and what the
                      >outcome of that appeal was I don't remember or I never heard, but
                      >I know it caused quite of bit of sensation for the neighborhood
                      >and confusion and anger for the couple and their families (the
                      >childern and grandchildern of the pair). Maybe in Veendam the civil
                      >servants were sleeping on the job. Anna Marie
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Robb Ouzts
                      > To: groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:29 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [groningen-genealogy] Re: Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema
                      >
                      >
                      > I have Hindrik Alberts Zuiderweg married 2nd with Maria Groen on
                      > 1.4.1863 in Veendam. Maria's mother was Trientje Alberts Zuiderweg,
                      > full sister of Hindrik, both the children of Albert Jakobs
                      > Zuiderweg & Elisabeth Daniels Kotter.
                      >
                      > A 2nd couple has a living son, so I don't think it would be right
                      > to bring it before the group. I am pretty sure I have a 3rd couple
                      > in my file, but I can't find them right now. I have roughly 160,000
                      > names, so some get lost in the mix. So it wasn't common, but it
                      > does seem to have happened. Since the Zuiderweg family lived in
                      > Veendam, and the marriages took place there, I think it unlikely
                      > that it wasn't known they were related.
                      >
                      > groetjes, Robb.
                      >
                      > Brouwers <anmaristin@...> wrote:
                      > Could uncles related by blood really marry nieces? full brother
                      > to the father or mother of the niece or were they brother-in-law to
                      > the father or mother? or half brother in such a way that it was not
                      > blood. I know that to the certain (?) degree blood family could not
                      > marry. You come across some that are iffy by cousins but there is
                      > always at least one generation seprating them , second cousins, and
                      > they need all kinds of dispensatios. If Margrieta was full blood
                      > aunt to Wessel they could not marry. The only way it could happen
                      > would be if the families lived in differant cities and no one was
                      > aware they were family, specially in Germany were two family
                      > members could have differnt last names thru property I could see
                      > this happening some times. Anna Marie
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Henny Savenije
                      > To: groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 6:37 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [groningen-genealogy] Re: Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema
                      >
                      > Robb,
                      >
                      > I have to learn to become less greedy. I realized when I integrated
                      > all the info that I already had everything and had to delete most
                      > of it again
                      >
                      >http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/tng/register.php?personID=I117130&tree=savenije&generations=15
                      >
                      > In some cases I even suspect that some of it comes from me.
                      >
                      > Which reminds me. By merging things I realized that very often, your
                      > data differs a few days from mine (sometimes a few years)
                      >
                      > Which forces me to check things and I realized that very often your
                      > sources use the registration date as the birth, marriage, or death date.
                      >
                      > I don't think it's very important but I guess you should know.
                      >
                      > Cheers
                      >
                      > At 11:58 PM 6/22/2008, you wrote:
                      >
                      > >Henny, I started working on the Zuidema family tonight. When I
                      > >googled Sikko Harms Zuidema, I came across your email. The LDS IGI
                      > >has the Sudema family in Spetzerfehn, Germany. Wessel was part of
                      > >this family. I believe he has 6 children with his aunt: Magrietha
                      > >Sikkes Zuidema. I have seen a few uncles marry their nieces (and
                      > >this doesn't mean cousin), but this is the first relationship I have
                      > >come across between an aunt and her nephew (brother's son). Wessel's
                      > >father was Hindrik Sikkes Zuidema (Sudema in the German), brother to
                      > >Magrietha. Note the first son was named for Wessel's father, and the
                      > >only daughter for his mother. Since uncles could marry their nieces,
                      > >I don't see why aunts couldn't marry their nephews. Thus I don't
                      > >know why Wessel & Magrietha didn't marry.
                      > >
                      > >Here is a link to the info I found & put on my site:
                      > >http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?
                      > >op=GET&db=rawboots&id=I169187
                      > >
                      > >mvg,
                      > >Robb.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >--- In groningen-genealogy@yahoogroups.com, Henny Savenije <adam-
                      > >eve@...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Een interessant probleem. Magrieta Sikkos, trouwt met Jacob Jans
                      > > > Busscher Hartman in 1835, Hij overlijd al snel in 1838. Dan heeft
                      > >zij
                      > > > een 4 tal kinderen bij een Wessel Zuidema, maar overlijdt in 1876
                      > >als
                      > > > weduwe van Jacob Hartman. Wessel Zuidema wordt nergens meer genoemd.
                      > > >
                      > > > De enige Wessel Zuidema die in aanmerking komt is een Wessel
                      > >Hindriks
                      > > > Zuidema die in het jaar van haar overlijden trouwt met een Jantjen
                      > > > Tielman, maar die is eigenlijk te jong, want dat zou betekenen dat
                      > > > hij zijn eerste kind kreeg op 10 jarige leeftijd.
                      > > >
                      > > > Wie weet wie de juiste Wessel Zuidema is.
                      > > >
                      > > > Meer informatie op
                      > > > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/tng/getperson.php?
                      > >personID=I56760&tree=savenije
                      > > > en beneden.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
                      > > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                      > > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
                      > > > Soort akte: overlijden
                      > > > Aktenummer: 35
                      > > > Aangiftedatum: 13-04-1876
                      > > > Overledene Magrieta Zuidema
                      > > > Geslacht: V
                      > > > Overlijdensdatum: 12-04-1876
                      > > > Leeftijd: 62
                      > > > Overlijdensplaats: Oude Pekela
                      > > > Vader Sikko Harms Zuidema
                      > > > Moeder Harmke Hinderks
                      > > > Partner Jacob Busscher Hartman
                      > > > Relatie: weduwe
                      > > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Meeden
                      > > >
                      > > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Huwelijk
                      > > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                      > > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
                      > > > Soort akte: Huwelijksakte
                      > > > Aktenummer: 11
                      > > > Datum: 21-04-1835
                      > > > Bruidegom Jacob Jans Busscher Hartman
                      > > > Geboortedatum: 14-09-1810
                      > > > Geboorteplaats: Nieuw Pekela
                      > > > Bruid Magrieta Sikko's Zuidema
                      > > > Geboortedatum: 04-06-1813
                      > > > Geboorteplaats: Meeden
                      > > > Vader bruidegom Marten Hartman
                      > > > Moeder bruidegom Margie Ritmers
                      > > > Vader bruid Sikko Harms Zuidema
                      > > > Moeder bruid Harmke Hinderks
                      > > > Nadere informatie beroep bruidegom: inl. kramer; beroep bruid: inl.
                      > > > kraamster; beroep vader bruidegom.: winkelier; beroep vader bruid:
                      > > > arbeider; bruidegom 24 jaar; bruid 21 jaar
                      > > >
                      > > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Huwelijk
                      > > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                      > > > Algemeen Gemeente: Oude Pekela
                      > > > Soort akte: Huwelijksakte
                      > > > Aktenummer: 26
                      > > > Datum: 19-10-1876
                      > > > Bruidegom Wessel Zuidema
                      > > > Geboorteplaats: Spetzerfehn, Dld
                      > > > Bruid Jantjen Tielman
                      > > > Geboorteplaats: Meeden
                      > > > Vader bruidegom Hinrich Sickes Zuidema
                      > > > Moeder bruidegom Peetje Wessels
                      > > > Vader bruid Kornelijs Berends Tielman
                      > > > Moeder bruid Antje Geerts Pathuis
                      > > > Nadere informatie beroep bruidegom: landbouwer; bruidegom 55 jaar;
                      > > > bruid 49 jaar
                      > > >
                      > > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
                      > > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                      > > > Algemeen Gemeente: Meeden
                      > > > Soort akte: overlijden
                      > > > Aktenummer: 21
                      > > > Aangiftedatum: 15-09-1890
                      > > > Overledene Wessel Hindriks Zuidema
                      > > > Geslacht: M
                      > > > Overlijdensdatum: 14-09-1890
                      > > > Leeftijd: 69
                      > > > Overlijdensplaats: Heerweweg gem. Meeden
                      > > > Vader NN
                      > > > Moeder NN
                      > > > Partner Jantje Tielman
                      > > > Relatie: echtgenoot
                      > > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Baijbaad Duitsland; beroep overl.:
                      > >daglooner
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Bron Burgerlijke stand - Overlijden
                      > > > Archieflocatie Groninger Archieven
                      > > > Algemeen Gemeente: Meeden
                      > > > Soort akte: overlijden
                      > > > Aktenummer: 32
                      > > > Aangiftedatum: 29-12-1894
                      > > > Overledene Jantjen Tielman
                      > > > Geslacht: V
                      > > > Overlijdensdatum: 27-12-1894
                      > > > Leeftijd: 67
                      > > > Overlijdensplaats: Heereweg gem. Meeden
                      > > > Vader NN
                      > > > Moeder NN
                      > > > Partner Wessel Zuidema
                      > > > Relatie: weduwe
                      > > > Nadere informatie geboortepl: Meeden; beroep overl.: koopvrouw
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
                      > > > -----------------------------
                      > > > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites
                      > > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel
                      > >free
                      > > > to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666)
                      > > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean
                      > > > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch
                      > > > http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen
                      > > > and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary
                      > > > http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea
                      > > > through Western Cartographic eyes
                      > > > http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in
                      > >Suwon
                      > > > http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures
                      > > > http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in
                      > >Pusan (1797)
                      > > > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/ Genealogy
                      > > > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/phorum Bulletin board for Korean
                      > >studies
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
                      > -----------------------------
                      > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites
                      > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free
                      > to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666)
                      > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean
                      > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch
                      > http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen
                      > and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary
                      > http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea
                      > through Western Cartographic eyes
                      > http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon
                      > http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures
                      > http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797)
                      > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/ Genealogy
                      > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/phorum Bulletin board for Korean studies
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >------------------------------------
                      >
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      Henny (Lee Hae Kang)
                      -----------------------------
                      http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites
                      http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free
                      to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666)
                      http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean
                      http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch
                      http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen
                      and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary
                      http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea
                      through Western Cartographic eyes
                      http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon
                      http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures
                      http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797)
                      http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/ Genealogy
                      http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/phorum Bulletin board for Korean studies
                    • ben doedens
                      ... No. Not until 1971. ... The Registrar had to examen the fact that both party s could marry each other. When partners lived in 2 different cities the
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 23, 2008
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                        Brouwers wrote:

                        > Could uncles related by blood really marry nieces? full brother to
                        > the father or mother of the niece or were they brother-in-law to the
                        > father or mother? or half brother in such a way that it was not
                        > blood. I know that to the certain (?) degree blood family could not
                        > marry.

                        No. Not until 1971.

                        > You come across some that are iffy by cousins but there
                        > is always at least one generation seprating them , second cousins,
                        > and they need all kinds of dispensatios. If Margrieta was full blood
                        > aunt to Wessel they could not marry. The only way it could happen
                        > would be if the families lived in differant cities and no one was
                        > aware they were family, specially in Germany were two family members
                        > could have differnt last names thru property I could see this
                        > happening some times. Anna Marie

                        The Registrar had to examen the fact that both party's could marry each
                        other. When partners lived in 2 different cities the marriage had to be
                        publiced in both the cities were partners live. This publication had to be
                        done in the old days in front of the door of the town hall on two following
                        sundays. In later days it had to be publiced on saturdays, later fridays.
                        And one time, during at least 10 days. On september 1, 1987 publication of a
                        marriage was no longer needed. The last publication " in front of the door
                        of the town hall " of Oude Pekela was on August 28, 1987.

                        Publication was needed while that the registrar in the old days (and before
                        the Code Civil clergy) could not check that partner were allowed to marry
                        each other by Cilvil of Churh Law. Family, living in cities or villages were
                        groom an bride to be lived, and aware of a fact that did forbid a marriage
                        between the partners can stop the marriage. (A married wife can stop the
                        second marriage of her partner when they are not divorced yet).

                        Met vriendelijke groeten,
                        Ben Doedens
                      • ben doedens
                        ... That is correct. ... The annulment of such a marriage could be asked for in court by the married couple themselves, their elders, their bloodrelatives in
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 23, 2008
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                          Brouwers wrote:
                          > Could it have been that the persons in question were of such an age
                          > that the possiblity of childern was non-existain.? and that is why
                          > they saw it through the fingers. When my gr. gr. grandfather
                          > remarried his sister in-law in 1834 Gron. he had to get dispensation
                          > from the king to marry.

                          That is correct.

                          > I also hear of a coulple that celebrated
                          > their 50 th wedding anniversary when it was discovered they were
                          > blood related, first cousins, they themselves never knew, both being
                          > half-orphened at a young age in differant cities, and the parents
                          > having very commom names, the marriage was declared nul and void and
                          > the childern illegtimate, they appealed and what the outcome of that
                          > appeal was I don't remember or I never heard, but I know it caused
                          > quite of bit of sensation for the neighborhood and confusion and
                          > anger for the couple and their families (the childern and
                          > grandchildern of the pair). Maybe in Veendam the civil servants were
                          > sleeping on the job.

                          The annulment of such a marriage could be asked for in court by the married
                          couple themselves, their elders, their bloodrelatives in the rising line, by
                          anyone that has an interest in that matter and by the Public Prosecuter in
                          the region.

                          In the old days they did not search for such blood relations. There were
                          only some registers of Birth, Marriages and Death and some lists names that
                          were obtained by an peoples count. Of about 1850, registrars started with
                          the people-registration. It was very difficult to search for an forbidden
                          blood relation between groom and bride to be.

                          For that matter the publication of the marriage to be in the two different
                          cities was prescripted so that people that was aware of a fact that made a
                          marriage impossible could stop the marry. In English and American churches
                          the minister asks the people if anyone who has knowledge of facts why bride
                          and groom not should marry must speak or forever holds his peace. This is
                          approx. the same procedure. Speak and stop the marriage or keep your
                          silence. Relatives would do that perhaps, the Public Prosecuter however, is
                          forced by law tot ask in court for an annulment.



                          Met vriendelijke groeten,
                          Ben Doedens
                        • ben doedens
                          ... Law never stops people procreating, aren t they ? Met vriendelijke groeten, Ben Doedens
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 23, 2008
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                            Henny Savenije wrote:
                            > Well besides this couple, I have another couple uncle and niece. Also
                            > married in Veendam. Maybe that the region needed people so badly that
                            > they didn't care??

                            Law never stops people procreating, aren't they ?

                            Met vriendelijke groeten,
                            Ben Doedens
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