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Re: [greenwichcyclists] Digest Number 3599

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  • Sally Eva
    It s the converse of build it and they will come . for decades the department of transport was building roads to meet demand and it s now widely accepted
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 11, 2013
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      It's the converse of "build it and they will come".

      for decades the department of transport was building roads "to meet demand" and it's now widely accepted that they were creating demand. The M25 created demand for traffic movements which it alone could satisfy and made journey possible which previously were impossible. Now they happen whereas previously they wouldn't have done.

      close roads and people will adapt. they may decide to sit in a traffic jam in order to go to the supermarket for a tin of tomatoes or they may decide to do without the tomatoes and take the dog for a walk. Many journeys are quite optional and, meeting a slight obstacle, will disappear.

      BWs

      Sally
      On 11/07/2013 19:09, Dalla Jenney wrote:


      Sally, I agree.  We lived on Crooms Hill when traffic through the park went from all day to rush hours only and we did not notice the difference in traffic on the road by our house - on the other hand, the change in the park was profound and wonderful.


      On 11 July 2013 17:46, Sally Eva <bobsallyeva@...> wrote:
       

      Traffic normally seems to spread itself out. A surprise one-day closure causes chaos but in a long term closure the jams melt away and the traffic finds other routes. Some of it may even catch the bus or walk.

      I appreciate that your experience may be different -- and that persuading both residents and drivers would be difficult

      Sally


      On 11/07/2013 11:23, Family Norton wrote:


      I agree 100% about the behaviour of cars in the park especially as I often cycle down the Avenue at around 5.30pm against the cars overtaking bikes coming up the hill.  I will ask the Westcombe Society representative to support you in asking the police to clamp down on the antisocial/dangerous behaviour of vehicles in the park as well as that of cyclists.

      The Avenue would be safer if cyclists going uphill were on the pavement rather than the road.  However, although this is the marked uphill cycle route, I find it very difficult to use because pedestrians often walk into my path and once stopped on the hill it is very difficult to get going again.  I presume this is the reason why most uphill bound cyclists use the roadway.

      Re closing the park to cars, this is a very difficult one. In an ideal world it would be lovely but the knock on effect on local residential streets is currently awful when the park is closed to rush hour traffic and this affects cyclists and pedestrians as well as car users.  I would vote for this as a long term aim but perhaps not without other traffic reduction measures in the area.

      Emily Norton


      Messages in this topic (9)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1b. Re: Cycling in Greenwich Park
          Posted by: "Francis Sedgemore" francis@... francissedgemore
          Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:03 am ((PDT))

      Good points from Emily, including the need to dismount when passing through Vanbrugh Gate.

      However, I have to ask if the continued provision of a thoroughfare through Greenwich Park for motorists is dependent on the good behaviour of drivers. I thought not.

      We often see dangerous and inconsiderate behaviour in those who cycle through the park, but rat-running drivers are a huge problem. Many pay no regard to the 20mph speed limit, let alone drive at a speed less than legal limit which is appropriate to the conditions. I also see drivers rashly overtaking cyclists when coming up The Avenue, such that they endanger cyclists on the descent.

      The parks police have said that they intend to crack down on miscreant velopedists. That is well and good, but I would like to see police officers enforcing the rules on motorists.

      One of the reasons why cyclists behave badly is that a bad example is so often set by others. This doesn't excuse the bad behaviour, but, human nature being what it is, when cyclists continually see motorists getting away with all sorts of irresponsible and downright dangerous behaviour, they often think to themselves "What the hell!".

      If we cannot sort out the problems caused by vehicles of all kinds moving through the Greenwich Park, and be consistent with it, then we should campaign for a complete closure of the through route.

      Francis

      On 10 Jul 13, at 12:31, Emily Norton <fam.norton@...>wrote:

      >
      > Dear All,
      >
      > I regularly cycle through Greenwich Park, usually against the flow at around 5.30pm.  I am also a member of the Westcombe Society Environment Committee.  In recent months our representative on the Greenwich Park SNP has lobbied in favour of increasing cycle routes in the park. As a result of that and responses to our article in the Westcombe News a few months ago, cycling is now allowed along Bower Avenue providing a car free route from Maze Hill to Blackheath Gate.  This was not easy to achieve as there are many who are very against cycling in the Park.  It should therefore be remembered that this is a trial and cycling on Bower Avenue (or indeed anywhere else in the Park) is a privilege that could be withdrawn.
      >
      >
      > I am posting this message because I think some cyclists forget that the continued provision of cycle routes in the park is dependent on the good behaviour of cyclists.  We have to remember that pedestrians have priority and that we should cycle at a speed that allows us to stop if anyone moves in front of us.  Children and dogs are unpredictable and those who are of limited mobility can lose their balance if they feel they have to suddenly move out of the way of a bicycle even if it doesn't touch them.
      >
      >
      > A particular concern is the behaviour of cyclists at gates, especially the Vanbrugh Gate (the exit at the end of the cycle path onto Maze Hill at the junction with Vanbrugh Park). In the last week I have met cyclists coming the other way through this gate every time and ALL of them were astride their bikes going through the gate.  Had I not dismounted in advance it would have been very difficult to get out of the way.  I am therefore making this plea to all cyclists:
      >
      >
      > Please DISMOUNT COMPLETELY AT PEDESTRIAN GATES and WALK through.
      >
      >
      > All the pedestrian gates are narrow and Vanbrugh Gate is also blind i.e. there are no railings on either side so it is impossible to see who is about to come through from the other side.  If you are astride your bike it is impossible for you to move it out of the way fast and anyone coming through the gate from the other side may find it very difficult to get out of your way because they can't see you coming.  I know that dismounting from a bike adds a few seconds to the journey but it is a small price to pay if it prevents an accident and gives a positive view of cyclists to other park users.
      >
      >
      > The Westombe Society intend to continue to lobby in support of cyclists in the park but please help us to help you by behaving in a manner that encourages others to view cyclists in the park as a benefit not a menace.
      >
      >
      > Emily Norton
      >
      > Coleraine Road
      >
      > Westcombe Park
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Family Norton
      > fam.norton@...
      >


      --
      Dr Francis Sedgemore
      journalist, writer and physicist
      telephone: +44 7840 191336
      website: sedgemore.com



      --
      Emily Norton
      fam.norton@...


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