Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Polyphony and Instruments in Church

Expand Messages
  • Stan Takis
    Dear Alexandros: Right. The only thing is, up until 1054 the Church as a whole included Western Europe, and by then the Western European musical tradition
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 30, 2006
      Dear Alexandros:

      Right. The only thing is, up until 1054 the "Church as a whole"
      included Western Europe, and by then the Western European musical
      tradition was already moving in another direction from that of the
      East. The eventual flowering of Western European music was probably
      more influenced by its history up to 1054 rather than any heretical
      theological influences of the Roman Catholics and Protestants.

      Stan
    • Alexandros Andreou
      Dear Stan, Those statements of yours are very misleading. First, it would be rather simplistic to believe that everything in the West until 1053 was perfectly
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 30, 2006
        Dear Stan,

        Those statements of yours are very misleading.

        First, it would be rather simplistic to believe that everything in the
        West until 1053 was perfectly Orthodox, and everything after 1054 was
        Roman Catholic. The heresies of the filioque, papal supremacy, etc., had
        been brewing in the West for centuries before they culminated in the
        Great Schism in 1054.

        Second, if we research the history of ecclesiastical polyphony, we will
        see that it wasn't until the 11th and 12th centuries that it starting
        developing. Likewise, if we look into the history of the use of
        instruments in church, we will again see that, according to the Catholic
        Encylcopedia: "For almost a thousand years Gregorian chant, without any
        instrumental or harmonic addition, was the only music used in connection
        with the liturgy."

        The fact that polyphony and instruments start getting their "foot in the
        door" of church around the same time as the Great Schism is no
        coincidence, and this fact strengthens my arguement that these aspects
        of worship are foreign to genuine Orthodoxy.

        -Alexandros

        On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 22:27:17 -0000, "Stan Takis" <takistan@...>
        said:
        > Dear Alexandros:
        >
        > Right. The only thing is, up until 1054 the "Church as a whole"
        > included Western Europe, and by then the Western European musical
        > tradition was already moving in another direction from that of the
        > East. The eventual flowering of Western European music was probably
        > more influenced by its history up to 1054 rather than any heretical
        > theological influences of the Roman Catholics and Protestants.
        >
        > Stan
        >
        --
        Alexandros Andreou
        aalexandros@...

        --
        http://www.fastmail.fm - I mean, what is it about a decent email service?
      • Stan Takis
        Dear Alexandros: Well, you are right about that. The Church did not become schismatic over night. It took a couple of hundred years or more. I still think the
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 30, 2006
          Dear Alexandros:

          Well, you are right about that. The Church did not become schismatic
          over night. It took a couple of hundred years or more. I still think
          the music is shaped by the language more than the theology and the
          differences between Latin and Greek are the main reasons for the
          differences in the two chants and subsequent elaborations.

          It would be interesting to see what would happen, in terms of music,
          if reconciliation did occur, as Pope Benedict indicated this week, it
          is one of his primary goals.

          By the way, don't you find it odd that the mainstream media is
          ignoring the real reason for the pope's trip to Istanbul and is
          billing it as a clash of "cultures," i. e. Catholicism vs. Islam?
          There is hardly any mention of it as a mission of Christian
          reconciliation, which, in a historical sense, would be a much larger
          story.

          Stan
        • Alexandros Andreou
          If language was a primary factor in shaping the music, it wouldn t have taken them 1000 years to realize that Latin is supposedly more compatible with
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 30, 2006
            If language was a primary factor in shaping the music, it wouldn't have
            taken them 1000 years to realize that Latin is supposedly more
            compatible with polyphony and instruments. The fact that both Greek and
            Latin can be set to either polyphony or monophony and can be sung either
            a capella or with instruments leads me to believe that language has
            little to do with their adoption of polyphony and instruments. It seems
            to be much more expressive of their cultural tastes, which is evident
            also in the style of art the Latins prefer. The sensuous art of the
            Renaissance period matches their sensuously elaborate music.
            But don't get me started on the Patriarch's spineless betrayal of
            Orthodoxy with all his polite words to the Pope implying that the
            Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches are equal "sisters". It takes
            someone with the guts of a confessor (like St. Mark of Ephesus, St.
            Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain, or St. Nectarios of Aegina to name a
            few) to condemn Roman Catholicism as the heresy it really is. Too bad
            St. Cosmas of Aitolos isn't around, since he was the one who warned
            people: "Curse the Pope, because he will be the cause [for the end to
            come]"!
            -Alexandros

            On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 02:24:01 -0000, "Stan Takis" <takistan@...>
            said:
            > Dear Alexandros:
            >
            > Well, you are right about that. The Church did not become schismatic
            > over night. It took a couple of hundred years or more. I still think
            > the music is shaped by the language more than the theology and the
            > differences between Latin and Greek are the main reasons for the
            > differences in the two chants and subsequent elaborations.
            >
            > It would be interesting to see what would happen, in terms of music,
            > if reconciliation did occur, as Pope Benedict indicated this week, it
            > is one of his primary goals.
            >
            > By the way, don't you find it odd that the mainstream media is
            > ignoring the real reason for the pope's trip to Istanbul and is
            > billing it as a clash of "cultures," i. e. Catholicism vs. Islam?
            > There is hardly any mention of it as a mission of Christian
            > reconciliation, which, in a historical sense, would be a much larger
            > story.
            >
            > Stan
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            --
            Alexandros Andreou
            aalexandros@...

            --
            http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.