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Multi-ethnicity (was Re: Archdiocesan-approved music for funerals???)

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  • psaltisuk
    ... ****Can this really be so? It s very shocking if it is. How can the Greek Church make any impact in predominantly Spanish-speaking areas of the USA (to
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 1, 2006
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      --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, Photini Henderson
      <presphotini@y...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > > Thank God, none of the celebrating priests tells me
      > > what to do, so I
      >
      > Yes, you are very fortunate. From what I understand
      > (I have been told), there is now in America a
      > restriction on languages in the liturgy to only
      > (liturgical) Greek and English ... so the options to
      > console and be inclusive or reach out to other
      > ethnicities is foreclosed, and I imagine, now the
      > exclusive ministry of the OCA and Antiochians.
      >
      > In Christ,
      >
      > Photini

      ****Can this really be so? It's very shocking if it is. How can the
      Greek Church make any impact in predominantly Spanish-speaking areas
      of the USA (to name but one obvious area) if this is the case?

      Is there some official directive about this?

      In Christ,

      Ivan
    • psaltisuk
      Dear Stan, Well, I didn t mention that in that ethno-variety in the parish of whose music I am in charge, when there is a choir, it is made up of my
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 1, 2006
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        Dear Stan,

        Well, I didn't mention that in that ethno-variety in the parish of
        whose music I am in charge, when there is a choir, it is made up of my
        (Anglo-Portuguese)family and Russian friends, and, now, some Ukrainian
        ladies... so harmony materializes automatically (in any case, I'm a
        "renegade" from the MP...). When we have the people, a Russian
        polyphonic Cherubic Hymn may be expected, for example.

        On the other hand, when it's just me, as it was this morning, the
        importance of having a monophonic repertoire becomes apparent!

        Anyway, I'm a composer of polyphonic music. You can't expect me to
        become a monophonic fundamentalist. Neither, on the other hand, will
        you find me attempting to displace well-sung monophonic Byzantine
        chant with something else; quite the opposite. I didn't start the
        Byzantine Chant group for nothing.

        I think that there is room for many things, but it is true that things
        in the US have become polarized to an extent unthinkable in Europe.
        Much of my recent research has been into the co-existence of monophony
        and polyphony in countries such as Bulgaria and Serbia, which have a
        rather different experience from that of North America.

        So we are, I think, in agreement. A good beginning for 2006!

        In XC,

        Ivan

        --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Stan Takis"
        <takistan@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Ivan and Dana:
        >
        > In addition to the multi-ethnic traditions you mentioned, there are
        > two additional traditions to deal with in the US, and probably in
        > other places as well. One is the "Westernized" music that has held
        > sway in the GOA Divine Liturgies for the last 70 years or so. This
        > constitutes another "tradition" with a right and wrong way to do
        > things. There is a contingent here that feels this music is superior
        > and should supplant all other traditions. One lady in our church told
        > the priest that Byzantine music was quaint, but had been surpassed
        > and shouldn't be used any more. The other is the group of people in
        > the American church, either by marriage or just by searching, come
        > from Protestant and Catholic traditions. Their reactions to the music
        > in the Church are all over the map, from embracing strict Byzantine
        > tradition to preferring pure Western styles. (I haven't seen anyone
        > seriously want to bring in a set of drums yet.) But American
        > Protestant and Catholic practices, I think, constitutes another
        > ethnic tradition we face in the Orthodox Church.
        >
        > I, being a middle-of-the-road kind of guy, get sniping from both
        > sides. But my position does not come from weakness or lack of
        > conviction; it comes from looking at the overall picture. I was
        > struck by watching football coach Tony Dungy make his statement to
        > the press about the ordeal of his son's suicide. He said he could not
        > have gotten through it without "my faith in Christ." Dungy is from
        > Jackson, Michigan, which is near my home. His church is basic
        > mainstream Protestant. It made me think that America is a land filled
        > with thousands of churches and faithful Christians, mostly Protestant
        > and Catholic. Like most Americans, Dungy does not have the Divine
        > Liturgy or other Orthodox services. He does not have our sacraments,
        > our ordained clergy, or most of our other dogmatic traditions, let
        > alone Byzantine chant. Does this damn him? Does Westernized polyphony
        > damn us? I don't know. But looking at the overall picture, I think
        > it's better to be inclusive of ethnic traditions than to be
        > ethnocentric, especially in gray areas of church practices. That's
        > why I like to find an appropriate place for harmonization and
        > polyphony in our music, even though I acknowledge that the
        > traditional music of the Orthodox church, dating back to the earliest
        > times, is pretty well defined. We should never let this tradition die
        > and it should be a vibrant part of our worship, but there has to be
        > room for other music that speaks to other ethnic groups.
        >
        > Stan
        >
      • John Paterakis
        ... I m pretty sure that this is not correct. For the record: at the Archdiocesan Cathedral in New York, we have used both Romanian and Church Slavonic when
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 1, 2006
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          --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, Photini Henderson
          <presphotini@y...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > > Thank God, none of the celebrating priests tells me
          > > what to do, so I
          >
          > Yes, you are very fortunate. From what I understand
          > (I have been told), there is now in America a
          > restriction on languages in the liturgy to only
          > (liturgical) Greek and English ... so the options to
          > console and be inclusive or reach out to other
          > ethnicities is foreclosed, and I imagine, now the
          > exclusive ministry of the OCA and Antiochians.
          >
          > In Christ,
          >
          > Photini

          I'm pretty sure that this is not correct. For the record: at the
          Archdiocesan Cathedral in New York, we have used both Romanian and
          Church Slavonic when we had priests able to liturgize in those
          languages, in addition to the usual Greek and English. Sorry, Ivan,
          no Spanish yet (although I've occasionally threatened to throw in
          bits of Albanian from my college days!)

          Incidentally, I'm afraid that I have exactly the opposite view on
          the use of "Pan-Orthodox." The term has always left me with an
          implicit suggestion that a parish/service that isn't "Pan-Orthodox"
          is somehow not a whole Church, and I'm not ready to go that far.
          So: it's "multi-ethnic" for me.

          Best regards,

          John Paterakis
        • psaltisuk
          ... wrote: [snip] ... ****That sounds more like it. It could be something that varies from diocese to diocese, too, I suppose.. ... ****Yes,
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 2, 2006
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            --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "John Paterakis"
            <paterakis@y...> wrote:

            [snip]
            >
            > I'm pretty sure that this is not correct. For the record: at the
            > Archdiocesan Cathedral in New York, we have used both Romanian and
            > Church Slavonic when we had priests able to liturgize in those
            > languages, in addition to the usual Greek and English. Sorry, Ivan,
            > no Spanish yet (although I've occasionally threatened to throw in
            > bits of Albanian from my college days!)

            ****That sounds more like it. It could be something that varies from
            diocese to diocese, too, I suppose..

            > Incidentally, I'm afraid that I have exactly the opposite view on
            > the use of "Pan-Orthodox." The term has always left me with an
            > implicit suggestion that a parish/service that isn't "Pan-Orthodox"
            > is somehow not a whole Church, and I'm not ready to go that far.
            > So: it's "multi-ethnic" for me.

            ****Yes, I see your point. I find that "multi-ethnic" sounds somehow
            too patronizing, but there may be nothing better for the moment.

            In Christ,

            Ivan
          • presphotini
            I m trying to get verification -- this is what I received from our local parish, however, I haven t seen anything posted on the goarch.org site. What I heard,
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 4, 2006
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              I'm trying to get verification -- this is what I received from our
              local parish, however, I haven't seen anything posted on the
              goarch.org site.

              "What I heard, and this came from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of
              New York, is that the Lord's Prayer, as of 1/1/06, will be recited
              only in Greek and English. All the Metropolises have to comply.
              Personally, I don't agree. The GOC in America will be losing the last
              vestige of Ecumenism. Have a nice Theophany

              Dean

              --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "psaltisuk"
              <ivanmoody@u...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "John Paterakis"
              > <paterakis@y...> wrote:
              >
              > [snip]
              > >
              > > I'm pretty sure that this is not correct. For the record: at the
              > > Archdiocesan Cathedral in New York, we have used both Romanian and
              > > Church Slavonic when we had priests able to liturgize in those
              > > languages, in addition to the usual Greek and English. Sorry, Ivan,
              > > no Spanish yet (although I've occasionally threatened to throw in
              > > bits of Albanian from my college days!)
              >
              > ****That sounds more like it. It could be something that varies from
              > diocese to diocese, too, I suppose..
              >
              > > Incidentally, I'm afraid that I have exactly the opposite view on
              > > the use of "Pan-Orthodox." The term has always left me with an
              > > implicit suggestion that a parish/service that isn't "Pan-Orthodox"
              > > is somehow not a whole Church, and I'm not ready to go that far.
              > > So: it's "multi-ethnic" for me.
              >
              > ****Yes, I see your point. I find that "multi-ethnic" sounds somehow
              > too patronizing, but there may be nothing better for the moment.
              >
              > In Christ,
              >
              > Ivan
              >
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