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Re: [greekorthodoxmusic] Multi-ethnicity (was Re: Archdiocesan-approved music for funerals???)

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  • Photini Henderson
    ... Yes, you are very fortunate. From what I understand (I have been told), there is now in America a restriction on languages in the liturgy to only
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 30, 2005
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      > Thank God, none of the celebrating priests tells me
      > what to do, so I

      Yes, you are very fortunate. From what I understand
      (I have been told), there is now in America a
      restriction on languages in the liturgy to only
      (liturgical) Greek and English ... so the options to
      console and be inclusive or reach out to other
      ethnicities is foreclosed, and I imagine, now the
      exclusive ministry of the OCA and Antiochians.

      In Christ,

      Photini


      The bush which was unsuitable even as an image of dead gods was able to depict within itself the mystery of the living God. Moses, this is a sign to you: as you saw God dwelling in the midst of fire, by fire must you serve the God Who dwells in the fire. [St. Ephrem the Syrian, in Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, V. III O.T.]
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    • Stan Takis
      Dear Ivan and Dana: In addition to the multi-ethnic traditions you mentioned, there are two additional traditions to deal with in the US, and probably in other
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 31, 2005
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        Dear Ivan and Dana:

        In addition to the multi-ethnic traditions you mentioned, there are
        two additional traditions to deal with in the US, and probably in
        other places as well. One is the "Westernized" music that has held
        sway in the GOA Divine Liturgies for the last 70 years or so. This
        constitutes another "tradition" with a right and wrong way to do
        things. There is a contingent here that feels this music is superior
        and should supplant all other traditions. One lady in our church told
        the priest that Byzantine music was quaint, but had been surpassed
        and shouldn't be used any more. The other is the group of people in
        the American church, either by marriage or just by searching, come
        from Protestant and Catholic traditions. Their reactions to the music
        in the Church are all over the map, from embracing strict Byzantine
        tradition to preferring pure Western styles. (I haven't seen anyone
        seriously want to bring in a set of drums yet.) But American
        Protestant and Catholic practices, I think, constitutes another
        ethnic tradition we face in the Orthodox Church.

        I, being a middle-of-the-road kind of guy, get sniping from both
        sides. But my position does not come from weakness or lack of
        conviction; it comes from looking at the overall picture. I was
        struck by watching football coach Tony Dungy make his statement to
        the press about the ordeal of his son's suicide. He said he could not
        have gotten through it without "my faith in Christ." Dungy is from
        Jackson, Michigan, which is near my home. His church is basic
        mainstream Protestant. It made me think that America is a land filled
        with thousands of churches and faithful Christians, mostly Protestant
        and Catholic. Like most Americans, Dungy does not have the Divine
        Liturgy or other Orthodox services. He does not have our sacraments,
        our ordained clergy, or most of our other dogmatic traditions, let
        alone Byzantine chant. Does this damn him? Does Westernized polyphony
        damn us? I don't know. But looking at the overall picture, I think
        it's better to be inclusive of ethnic traditions than to be
        ethnocentric, especially in gray areas of church practices. That's
        why I like to find an appropriate place for harmonization and
        polyphony in our music, even though I acknowledge that the
        traditional music of the Orthodox church, dating back to the earliest
        times, is pretty well defined. We should never let this tradition die
        and it should be a vibrant part of our worship, but there has to be
        room for other music that speaks to other ethnic groups.

        Stan
      • psaltisuk
        ... ****Can this really be so? It s very shocking if it is. How can the Greek Church make any impact in predominantly Spanish-speaking areas of the USA (to
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 1, 2006
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          --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, Photini Henderson
          <presphotini@y...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > > Thank God, none of the celebrating priests tells me
          > > what to do, so I
          >
          > Yes, you are very fortunate. From what I understand
          > (I have been told), there is now in America a
          > restriction on languages in the liturgy to only
          > (liturgical) Greek and English ... so the options to
          > console and be inclusive or reach out to other
          > ethnicities is foreclosed, and I imagine, now the
          > exclusive ministry of the OCA and Antiochians.
          >
          > In Christ,
          >
          > Photini

          ****Can this really be so? It's very shocking if it is. How can the
          Greek Church make any impact in predominantly Spanish-speaking areas
          of the USA (to name but one obvious area) if this is the case?

          Is there some official directive about this?

          In Christ,

          Ivan
        • psaltisuk
          Dear Stan, Well, I didn t mention that in that ethno-variety in the parish of whose music I am in charge, when there is a choir, it is made up of my
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 1, 2006
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            Dear Stan,

            Well, I didn't mention that in that ethno-variety in the parish of
            whose music I am in charge, when there is a choir, it is made up of my
            (Anglo-Portuguese)family and Russian friends, and, now, some Ukrainian
            ladies... so harmony materializes automatically (in any case, I'm a
            "renegade" from the MP...). When we have the people, a Russian
            polyphonic Cherubic Hymn may be expected, for example.

            On the other hand, when it's just me, as it was this morning, the
            importance of having a monophonic repertoire becomes apparent!

            Anyway, I'm a composer of polyphonic music. You can't expect me to
            become a monophonic fundamentalist. Neither, on the other hand, will
            you find me attempting to displace well-sung monophonic Byzantine
            chant with something else; quite the opposite. I didn't start the
            Byzantine Chant group for nothing.

            I think that there is room for many things, but it is true that things
            in the US have become polarized to an extent unthinkable in Europe.
            Much of my recent research has been into the co-existence of monophony
            and polyphony in countries such as Bulgaria and Serbia, which have a
            rather different experience from that of North America.

            So we are, I think, in agreement. A good beginning for 2006!

            In XC,

            Ivan

            --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Stan Takis"
            <takistan@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Ivan and Dana:
            >
            > In addition to the multi-ethnic traditions you mentioned, there are
            > two additional traditions to deal with in the US, and probably in
            > other places as well. One is the "Westernized" music that has held
            > sway in the GOA Divine Liturgies for the last 70 years or so. This
            > constitutes another "tradition" with a right and wrong way to do
            > things. There is a contingent here that feels this music is superior
            > and should supplant all other traditions. One lady in our church told
            > the priest that Byzantine music was quaint, but had been surpassed
            > and shouldn't be used any more. The other is the group of people in
            > the American church, either by marriage or just by searching, come
            > from Protestant and Catholic traditions. Their reactions to the music
            > in the Church are all over the map, from embracing strict Byzantine
            > tradition to preferring pure Western styles. (I haven't seen anyone
            > seriously want to bring in a set of drums yet.) But American
            > Protestant and Catholic practices, I think, constitutes another
            > ethnic tradition we face in the Orthodox Church.
            >
            > I, being a middle-of-the-road kind of guy, get sniping from both
            > sides. But my position does not come from weakness or lack of
            > conviction; it comes from looking at the overall picture. I was
            > struck by watching football coach Tony Dungy make his statement to
            > the press about the ordeal of his son's suicide. He said he could not
            > have gotten through it without "my faith in Christ." Dungy is from
            > Jackson, Michigan, which is near my home. His church is basic
            > mainstream Protestant. It made me think that America is a land filled
            > with thousands of churches and faithful Christians, mostly Protestant
            > and Catholic. Like most Americans, Dungy does not have the Divine
            > Liturgy or other Orthodox services. He does not have our sacraments,
            > our ordained clergy, or most of our other dogmatic traditions, let
            > alone Byzantine chant. Does this damn him? Does Westernized polyphony
            > damn us? I don't know. But looking at the overall picture, I think
            > it's better to be inclusive of ethnic traditions than to be
            > ethnocentric, especially in gray areas of church practices. That's
            > why I like to find an appropriate place for harmonization and
            > polyphony in our music, even though I acknowledge that the
            > traditional music of the Orthodox church, dating back to the earliest
            > times, is pretty well defined. We should never let this tradition die
            > and it should be a vibrant part of our worship, but there has to be
            > room for other music that speaks to other ethnic groups.
            >
            > Stan
            >
          • John Paterakis
            ... I m pretty sure that this is not correct. For the record: at the Archdiocesan Cathedral in New York, we have used both Romanian and Church Slavonic when
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 1, 2006
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              --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, Photini Henderson
              <presphotini@y...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > > Thank God, none of the celebrating priests tells me
              > > what to do, so I
              >
              > Yes, you are very fortunate. From what I understand
              > (I have been told), there is now in America a
              > restriction on languages in the liturgy to only
              > (liturgical) Greek and English ... so the options to
              > console and be inclusive or reach out to other
              > ethnicities is foreclosed, and I imagine, now the
              > exclusive ministry of the OCA and Antiochians.
              >
              > In Christ,
              >
              > Photini

              I'm pretty sure that this is not correct. For the record: at the
              Archdiocesan Cathedral in New York, we have used both Romanian and
              Church Slavonic when we had priests able to liturgize in those
              languages, in addition to the usual Greek and English. Sorry, Ivan,
              no Spanish yet (although I've occasionally threatened to throw in
              bits of Albanian from my college days!)

              Incidentally, I'm afraid that I have exactly the opposite view on
              the use of "Pan-Orthodox." The term has always left me with an
              implicit suggestion that a parish/service that isn't "Pan-Orthodox"
              is somehow not a whole Church, and I'm not ready to go that far.
              So: it's "multi-ethnic" for me.

              Best regards,

              John Paterakis
            • psaltisuk
              ... wrote: [snip] ... ****That sounds more like it. It could be something that varies from diocese to diocese, too, I suppose.. ... ****Yes,
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 2, 2006
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                --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "John Paterakis"
                <paterakis@y...> wrote:

                [snip]
                >
                > I'm pretty sure that this is not correct. For the record: at the
                > Archdiocesan Cathedral in New York, we have used both Romanian and
                > Church Slavonic when we had priests able to liturgize in those
                > languages, in addition to the usual Greek and English. Sorry, Ivan,
                > no Spanish yet (although I've occasionally threatened to throw in
                > bits of Albanian from my college days!)

                ****That sounds more like it. It could be something that varies from
                diocese to diocese, too, I suppose..

                > Incidentally, I'm afraid that I have exactly the opposite view on
                > the use of "Pan-Orthodox." The term has always left me with an
                > implicit suggestion that a parish/service that isn't "Pan-Orthodox"
                > is somehow not a whole Church, and I'm not ready to go that far.
                > So: it's "multi-ethnic" for me.

                ****Yes, I see your point. I find that "multi-ethnic" sounds somehow
                too patronizing, but there may be nothing better for the moment.

                In Christ,

                Ivan
              • presphotini
                I m trying to get verification -- this is what I received from our local parish, however, I haven t seen anything posted on the goarch.org site. What I heard,
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 4, 2006
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                  I'm trying to get verification -- this is what I received from our
                  local parish, however, I haven't seen anything posted on the
                  goarch.org site.

                  "What I heard, and this came from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of
                  New York, is that the Lord's Prayer, as of 1/1/06, will be recited
                  only in Greek and English. All the Metropolises have to comply.
                  Personally, I don't agree. The GOC in America will be losing the last
                  vestige of Ecumenism. Have a nice Theophany

                  Dean

                  --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "psaltisuk"
                  <ivanmoody@u...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "John Paterakis"
                  > <paterakis@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > [snip]
                  > >
                  > > I'm pretty sure that this is not correct. For the record: at the
                  > > Archdiocesan Cathedral in New York, we have used both Romanian and
                  > > Church Slavonic when we had priests able to liturgize in those
                  > > languages, in addition to the usual Greek and English. Sorry, Ivan,
                  > > no Spanish yet (although I've occasionally threatened to throw in
                  > > bits of Albanian from my college days!)
                  >
                  > ****That sounds more like it. It could be something that varies from
                  > diocese to diocese, too, I suppose..
                  >
                  > > Incidentally, I'm afraid that I have exactly the opposite view on
                  > > the use of "Pan-Orthodox." The term has always left me with an
                  > > implicit suggestion that a parish/service that isn't "Pan-Orthodox"
                  > > is somehow not a whole Church, and I'm not ready to go that far.
                  > > So: it's "multi-ethnic" for me.
                  >
                  > ****Yes, I see your point. I find that "multi-ethnic" sounds somehow
                  > too patronizing, but there may be nothing better for the moment.
                  >
                  > In Christ,
                  >
                  > Ivan
                  >
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