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Women Chanters and Other Stuff

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  • Stan Takis
    Dear List Members: Christos Anesti! Well, I hope the lack of activity here is due to the fact that we were all so very busy during Holy Week. I know I was. I
    Message 1 of 5 , May 4, 2005
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      Dear List Members:

      Christos Anesti!

      Well, I hope the lack of activity here is due to the fact that we were
      all so very busy during Holy Week. I know I was.

      I jumped into the discussion of Women Chanters on the Byzantine Chant
      board. They've now banned the discussion, but if anybody wants to keep
      it going over here, I think it would be great. If you haven't read the
      discussion, it can be found here:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/byzantinechant/messages

      Otherwise, I hope activity picks up here so we can learn from one
      another. I have benefitted greatly from our discussions here.

      I hope your Pascha was a fruitful one, and have a great bright week.

      Stan
    • Stan Takis
      PS: You will have to back up to messages 2330 and 2331 on the Byzantine Chant board to find the beginning of the discussion. Stan
      Message 2 of 5 , May 4, 2005
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        PS: You will have to back up to messages 2330 and 2331 on the
        Byzantine Chant board to find the beginning of the discussion.

        Stan


        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/byzantinechant/messages
        >
      • dianakg2003
        Alithos Anesti! Yes Pascha was very busy! I will respond on the topic of women chanters. I read the postings on the other site and believe the topic could
        Message 3 of 5 , May 5, 2005
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          Alithos Anesti! Yes Pascha was very busy!
          I will respond on the topic of women chanters. I read the postings
          on the other site and believe the topic could benefit from further
          discussion. I do believe women should be chanters – and not simply
          by economia- as this leads to inconsistency. As it is right now, the
          widespread practice of chant is at risk is of potential extinction
          and this is a way to bring it forward as a total parish effort.
          Simply, the church needs the help and women can do it- and it is not
          without precedent in the early church. A source for my comments is
          the pbs documentary "From Jesus to Christ"- You can read key excerpts
          online, but the DVD is outstanding and you will hear throughout Axion
          Estin being chanted by a woman, exemplifying the earliest practice in
          the Christian movement. There is an entire section on the role of
          women in the early church, via Prof. Pagels of Princeton and
          Professor King of Harvard (New Testament scholars and historians of
          early Christianity)
          http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/ Click
          on `The first Christians' and follow the links on the Role of
          Women. To keep this post from being too long, in a separate post I
          will summarize some of the learnings on the early Christian movement
          and the church.

          The challenge going forward for Orthodoxy is in recognizing
          traditions that were societal based and not Christ based. In order
          to do this however, it must want to make a distinction between the
          two, which the church does not want to do- in part because it does
          not have a structure that would allow such a review. We have
          disagreement on the rightful person to call an Ecumenical council –
          whether it should be the EP or the MP. So the totality of Orthodoxy
          is, organizationally in a stalemate. There is no structure for
          discussing the roles of women, nor even the more controversial modern
          subjects of the day- such as contraception, euthanasia, cloning, in
          vitro fertilization, etc. And on these subjects, though there are
          opinions, there is not a common church doctrine. Yet babies
          conceived via IVF are in the multitudes and are baptized. And it is
          obvious that contraception is practiced.

          So, how to move female chanters forward? It will need to be a parish
          push initiative, out of necessity- as it is now and was in the
          beginning, and as the skills improve and practice becomes more
          expert, it will be clear that it is the right thing to do, IMHO.
          In XC, D.

          --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Stan Takis"
          <takistan@y...> wrote:
          > Dear List Members:
          >
          > Christos Anesti!
          >
          > Well, I hope the lack of activity here is due to the fact that we
          were
          > all so very busy during Holy Week. I know I was.
          >
          > I jumped into the discussion of Women Chanters on the Byzantine
          Chant
          > board. They've now banned the discussion, but if anybody wants to
          keep
          > it going over here, I think it would be great. If you haven't read
          the
          > discussion, it can be found here:
          >
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/byzantinechant/messages
          >
          > Otherwise, I hope activity picks up here so we can learn from one
          > another. I have benefitted greatly from our discussions here.
          >
          > I hope your Pascha was a fruitful one, and have a great bright week.
          >
          > Stan
        • Stan Takis
          Diane: Christos Anesti! I agree wholeheartedly with your post. I especially appreciate the distinction between societal practices and doctrine. One thing I
          Message 4 of 5 , May 5, 2005
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            Diane:

            Christos Anesti!

            I agree wholeheartedly with your post. I especially appreciate the
            distinction between societal practices and doctrine.

            One thing I want to comment upon is how things move in the Orthodox
            Church. Since we are at a roadblock when it comes to an ecumenical
            council, one might think change is impossible. But I agree with you
            that things must work at a parish level. A lot of people complain that
            the heirarchs show no leadership, but we have no pope, so therefore
            the office of heirarch is chiefly to maintain the traditions that are
            already there. In the case of undefined policy because of changing
            times, it seems that in our modern world, the heirarchs come to accept
            certain practices (like harmonized music, for example) that have no
            canons, start in the parishes, and become widespread. I'm glad that in
            Orthodoxy we realize the Church is not only the heirarchy, but everyone.

            Stan
          • Emanuel Creekus
            Our Diakonissa (whose husband, our deacon, used to be our protopsalti and still chants quite a bit) also helps out at the Psaltiri when she can. ... From:
            Message 5 of 5 , May 6, 2005
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              Our Diakonissa (whose husband, our deacon, used to be our protopsalti and still chants quite a bit) also helps out at the Psaltiri when she can.
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:50 AM
              Subject: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: Women Chanters and Other Stuff

              Alithos Anesti!  Yes Pascha was very busy!
              I will respond on the topic of women chanters.  I read the postings
              on the other site and believe the topic could benefit from further
              discussion.  I do believe women should be chanters – and not simply
              by economia- as this leads to inconsistency.  As it is right now, the
              widespread practice of chant is at risk is of potential extinction
              and this is a way to bring it forward as a total parish effort. 
              Simply, the church needs the help and women can do it- and it is not
              without precedent in the early church.   A source for my comments is
              the pbs documentary "From Jesus to Christ"- You can read key excerpts
              online, but the DVD is outstanding and you will hear throughout Axion
              Estin being chanted by a woman, exemplifying the earliest practice in
              the Christian movement.  There is an entire section on the role of
              women in the early church, via Prof. Pagels of Princeton and
              Professor King of Harvard (New Testament scholars and historians of
              early Christianity)
              http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/   Click
              on `The first Christians' and follow the links on the Role of
              Women.   To keep this post from being too long, in a separate post I
              will summarize some of the learnings on the early Christian movement
              and the church.

              The challenge going forward for Orthodoxy is in recognizing
              traditions that were societal based and not Christ based.  In order
              to do this however, it must want to make a distinction between the
              two, which the church does not want to do- in part because it does
              not have a structure that would allow such a review.  We have
              disagreement on the rightful person to call an Ecumenical council –
              whether it should be the EP or the MP.  So the totality of Orthodoxy
              is, organizationally in a stalemate.  There is no structure for
              discussing the roles of women, nor even the more controversial modern
              subjects of the day- such as contraception, euthanasia, cloning, in
              vitro fertilization, etc.  And on these subjects, though there are
              opinions, there is not a common church doctrine.  Yet babies
              conceived via IVF are in the multitudes and are baptized. And it is
              obvious that contraception is practiced. 

              So, how to move female chanters forward? It will need to be a parish
              push initiative, out of necessity- as it is now and was in the
              beginning, and as the skills improve and practice becomes more
              expert, it will be clear that it is the right thing to do, IMHO.
              In XC, D. 

              --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Stan Takis"
              <takistan@y...> wrote:
              > Dear List Members:
              >
              > Christos Anesti!
              >
              > Well, I hope the lack of activity here is due to the fact that we
              were
              > all so very busy during Holy Week. I know I was.
              >
              > I jumped into the discussion of Women Chanters on the Byzantine
              Chant
              > board. They've now banned the discussion, but if anybody wants to
              keep
              > it going over here, I think it would be great. If you haven't read
              the
              > discussion, it can be found here:
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/byzantinechant/messages
              >
              > Otherwise, I hope activity picks up here so we can learn from one
              > another. I have benefitted greatly from our discussions here.
              >
              > I hope your Pascha was a fruitful one, and have a great bright week.
              >
              > Stan


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