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RE: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: On Harmony-"Romaic Chant" and other cultures

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  • Samuel Herron
    I think the problem is Bishop Nikitas wants to replant the Byzantine Empire around the world, not spread the true Orthodox Faith. Maybe I am wrong, but you
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 3 4:58 PM
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      I think the problem is Bishop Nikitas wants to replant the Byzantine Empire around the world, not spread the true Orthodox Faith. Maybe I am wrong, but you just don’t go into a culture like Indonesian Culture and demand they sing all in a European language. They will hate you for trying to “Europeanize” them. They may want the true faith but they don’t want Byzantium with it, nor should they. As for Thailand, I can ask around because we have an ex missionary to Thailand in my Church at home named Bryan Short.

                 ~Samuel

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: dianakg2003 [mailto:kizzymail51@...]
      Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 7:45 PM
      To: greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: On Harmony-"Romaic Chant" and other cultures

       


      Samuel- this is very interesting...I wonder if the Bishop in Hong
      Kong knows the local languages- which are several if one takes into
      account HK and Indonesia... maybe that is an issue ...
      The country I was most curious about is Thailand, since the language
      is tonal...and I wonder how the spread of the faith works now adays
      when someone brings it to a very different culture  vs. immigrants
      bringing it with them to a new territory, as in America..

      In XC, D.

      --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Samuel Herron" <Samuel-
      Herron@u...> wrote:
      > Spanish is already being done. I have a website I could pass on with
      > Spanish Byzantine chant if you want it. They do it better than most
      > English chanting I have heard honestly. And I do not know about
      Taiwan,
      > but I personally know Fr.Daniel Byantoro who is the only seminary
      > trained Orthodox Priest in Indonesia. He, with a little help from
      me and
      > others in regards to the way Byzantine Music works, has started
      adding
      > Byzantine Hymns into Indonesian. He also has included some of the
      local
      > style music and culture into his work, its amazing. They have other
      > priests, but the priests haven't gone to seminary, so what Fr.Daniel
      > does is writes a homily for each priest to give to their parishes
      (more
      > like catacombs with the element of radical islam there) to make
      sure it
      > is theologically correct. Unfortunately, the Bishop over the land,
      > Bishop Nikitas of Hong Kong, demanded that they HAVE to do it in all
      > Greek (even though Fr.Daniel trainded the choir to do Agios O Theos
      just
      > for the Bishop and the people had NO clue what they were singing),
      so
      > there is a huge dispute there right now, and the tsunami doesn't
      help.
      > But, efforts are being made in different cultures for the spread of
      BM
      > to other lands, but each one has its own "flavor" added to it from
      the
      > culture.
      >           ~Samuel
      > http://www.iglesiaortodoxa.cl/musica.htm     the ressurectional
      > apolytikia in spanish

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: dianakg2003 [mailto:kizzymail51@h...]
      > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 7:03 PM
      > To: greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: On Harmony-"Romaic Chant"

      >
      > Ivan,
      > re:"In such circumstances - and they are far from uncommon - there
      is
      > no
      > possibility of such a master-pupil relationship. If you want the
      > Liturgy to be celebrated (and, one would hope, other services too),
      > you have to get on with it somehow. What do you do when you can't
      > find a melody for something you've never sung before?"
      >
      > Actually I was in this predicament during one summer when travel
      > schedules created a scheduling 'nightmare' in our startup parish...
      > (another issue in this global village of traveling workers these
      > days... 'who's on first Sunday' is a big issue!)   While I had
      Kevin
      > L.'s DL for the liturgy and knew that fairly well, I did not have
      > some of the 'specials'... and used the internet... found Stan's
      > website... didn't even know about the other music chat rooms at the
      > time...Lucky I have music training and could learn almost on the
      fly
      > to follow the melody...And I would say that I practiced with a
      piano
      > and organ to make sure I was pretty close to the melody as
      written...
      > (how else would I know?)  But not everyone has even basic music
      > training or internet access... especially in developing
      > countries...and your point about Latin America is important...
      > because if we think of countries with huge populations, poverty,
      and
      > need for mission, there is virtually no internet access there...:
      > think of rural Asia, Africa, Latin America, India, etc. And if we
      > think that translation of the liturgical music into English is  a
      > challenge, I must believe that Spanish, Hindi, Thai, or Malay is
      even
      > a bigger challenge... Spanish may have a head start because of the
      > large Spanish speaking populations in America, and missions in
      those
      > communities... Does anyone here know how if, for example, Orthodoxy
      > has made tiny steps in Thailand?  Thai is the most difficult of the
      > Asian languages as it includes 'tonality' in addition to vocabulary
      > and grammar (the only country where our American and European
      > corporate expats never master the local language) So how one would
      > use Thai Language/ tones and Byzantine tones might take a genius to
      > figure out... I think your point is important -   we need to think
      > beyond the issues in 'already Orthodox' countries to understand the
      > hurdles to spread of the faith on the globe and then how we could
      > deal with them... how would we  'evangelize' new regions like
      > these...?
      >
      > In XC, D.   
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "psaltisuk"
      > <ivanmoody@u...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear Father Benjamin,
      > >
      > > I ask a blessing!
      > >
      > > Good to know that you are about on the Internet again!
      > >
      > > --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Rev. Protopresbyter
      > > Benjamin" <Protopresbyter@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > > [snip]
      > >
      > > > I have lived in Staro-Obratz communities which used the Old
      > > Ritualist
      > > > Znameny Penya (not the reconstructed type but that which has
      been
      > > sung
      > > > from gen. to generation by all Staro-Very from the 16th cent.
      > until
      > > now
      > > > without break in continuity AND with written (Kriuk) notation...
      > > >
      > > > The Staro-Very say that this is simply a Russian Church music
      > which
      > > > came from the "Greeks"....they of course claim "without
      > > alteration"...
      > > >
      > > > The kriuk btw can be read easily by any who read the pre
      > > > Chrysantine-notation of the East Roman Chant..some argue it is
      the
      > > > same.....dont know...'
      > >
      > > ****Yes, there is a good deal of research, discussion and
      argument
      > > about this going on now.
      > > 
      > > > The music is lead by a "psalm singer" (cantor/psalti) and is
      > > chanted in
      > > > unison...but in different ranges (in thirds I noted)
      > > > simultaneously....VERY powerful...as if the Ison were held
      across
      > > > octave ranges by both male and female voices...
      > >
      > > ****I'm not sure what you mean here: were they chanting in
      parallel
      > > thirds?  Or do you mean the difference between vocal ranges?
      > >
      > > > Chant in pre-1880's typikon (Patriarchate of
      > Constantinople) ...was
      > > the
      > > > norm in the monastery I was trained as a priest....and the
      chant
      > was
      > > > simply monophonic harmony...ISON shifted and danced (when a
      > > competent
      > > > chanter was present...) therwise the melody was chanted in
      > > > unison....across vocal ranges......ison being simplified and
      > > > reduced...but the melodia coming directly from the Chrysantine
      > > notated
      > > > manuscripts/books......the ison indicated by the script of tye
      > > > notation...with presumptive pitch being RELATIVE  and the ekhos
      > > (tone)
      > > > gotten into" by the exercise of an AKPHIMA or set of notes from
      > the
      > > > scale of the mode.....lydian, mixolodian, etc......1,2,3.4. or
      the
      > > > plagal of each....
      > > >
      > > > Monophonic Harmony.......again...
      > > >
      > > > NOW ...what experience taught this left-handed, non-expert
      > is ...is
      > > > that when there are competant and experienced chanters...(most
      of
      > > our
      > > > Anagnostes/Readers are not and couldnt be with out time and
      > > > training...tapes, books, notation etc are good BUT NOT THE
      > > > SAME......what experience has taught is that a master can teach
      an
      > > > idiot the basics...without pain...subliminally these folk have
      > > learned
      > > > from childhood...children who know the psalterion by heart are 
      > > common
      > > > in such communities...ironically that is a /was a/ canonical
      > > > requirement for a bishop ...in fact it was no BIG thing except
      an
      > > index
      > > > of one's normal church attendance...one would HEAR and sing the
      > > Psalms
      > > > daily and at every meal, at rising, at services and ....etc...
      > > > when one is standing next to a master=psalti or
      > > chanter/Cantor...ones
      > > > humble efforts are directed/guided and even in awful talentless
      > > attempt
      > > > they are made ok by the stability and power of the IKHOS/PENYA
      of
      > > the
      > > > teacher-Psalti-Chantor...who teaches by experience and by
      > > > EXAMPLE".........new students are encouraged (Eastern Trad) to
      > learn
      > > > the Akphima (tone setting devices) anbd Troparion
      Melodies.....as
      > I
      > > > recall....
      > >
      > > ****You are correct.  This is the way the traditional system
      > works. 
      > > The question is what happens when that system for some reason
      > breaks
      > > down?  It may break down because of an insistence on replacing
      > > monophony with something else, whether with justification or not
      > > (hence the discussion in the GOA), it may be a historical
      *process*
      > > (more the Russian experience), or it may simply not be there in
      the
      > > first place.  This latter situation is by far the most common in
      > > countries that have no experience,or very little, of Orthodox
      > > immigration (and here I am thinking particularly of the Latin
      > > countries of Europe and large chunks of Latin America). 
      > >
      > > What often happens is that a mission parish is started by an
      > > indigenous priest, and the musical aspect is left either to an
      > > immigrant who learnt _more or less_ in his childhood, by ear (I
      > refer
      > > to personal experiences in Italy and Portugal), or to a neophyte
      > with
      > > western musical training who then has to deal with a large number
      > of
      > > conflicting opinions on how his job should be done, and who feels
      > > completely at sea (France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Brazil,
      > USA...). 
      > > In such circumstances - and they are far from uncommon - there is
      > no
      > > possibility of such a master-pupil relationship.  If you want the
      > > Liturgy to be celebrated (and, one would hope, other services
      too),
      > > you have to get on with it somehow.  What do you do when you
      can't
      > > find a melody for something you've never sung before?  You find
      > > something in the same tone, you send a query to Orthodox Psalm
      (if
      > > you happen to speak English), you intone it _recto tono_, you
      > borrow
      > > a melody from somewhere else... And that's a kind of
      apprenticeship
      > > too.
      > >
      > > In Christ,
      > >
      > > Ivan
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • psaltisuk
      Dear Diana, ... is ... Kevin ... fly ... piano ... written... ... ****Indeed! The alternative, if you don t have a large repertoire by heart, is some kind of
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 4 12:06 PM
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        Dear Diana,

        --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "dianakg2003"
        <kizzymail51@h...> wrote:
        >
        > Ivan,
        > re:"In such circumstances - and they are far from uncommon - there
        is
        > no
        > possibility of such a master-pupil relationship. If you want the
        > Liturgy to be celebrated (and, one would hope, other services too),
        > you have to get on with it somehow. What do you do when you can't
        > find a melody for something you've never sung before?"
        >
        > Actually I was in this predicament during one summer when travel
        > schedules created a scheduling 'nightmare' in our startup parish...
        > (another issue in this global village of traveling workers these
        > days... 'who's on first Sunday' is a big issue!) While I had
        Kevin
        > L.'s DL for the liturgy and knew that fairly well, I did not have
        > some of the 'specials'... and used the internet... found Stan's
        > website... didn't even know about the other music chat rooms at the
        > time...Lucky I have music training and could learn almost on the
        fly
        > to follow the melody...And I would say that I practiced with a
        piano
        > and organ to make sure I was pretty close to the melody as
        written...
        > (how else would I know?) But not everyone has even basic music
        > training or internet access...

        ****Indeed! The alternative, if you don't have a large repertoire by
        heart, is some kind of improvisation.

        >especially in developing
        > countries...and your point about Latin America is important...
        > because if we think of countries with huge populations, poverty,
        and
        > need for mission, there is virtually no internet access there...:
        > think of rural Asia, Africa, Latin America, India, etc. And if we
        > think that translation of the liturgical music into English is a
        > challenge, I must believe that Spanish, Hindi, Thai, or Malay is
        even
        > a bigger challenge... Spanish may have a head start because of the
        > large Spanish speaking populations in America, and missions in
        those
        > communities...

        ****As Samuel has noted, there is material in Spanish. But it's
        still sporadic. Bp Dimitri of the OCA has done much work in this
        area, and there are a number of Spanish-speaking priests also in the
        GOA. Some good work is being done in Spain too, both in the EP and
        the Serbian Patriarchate. Portuguese has been slower, but t's
        happening. There are some links, if you're interested, on the
        Hispanic Orthodox Lns page on my site.

        In Christ,

        Ivan
      • psaltisuk
        Dear Samuel, ... Herron@u... wrote: [snip] And I do not know about Taiwan, ... me and ... adding ... local ... (more ... sure it ... just ... so ... help. ...
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 4 12:11 PM
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          Dear Samuel,

          --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Samuel Herron" <Samuel-
          Herron@u...> wrote:

          [snip]

          And I do not know about Taiwan,
          > but I personally know Fr.Daniel Byantoro who is the only seminary
          > trained Orthodox Priest in Indonesia. He, with a little help from
          me and
          > others in regards to the way Byzantine Music works, has started
          adding
          > Byzantine Hymns into Indonesian. He also has included some of the
          local
          > style music and culture into his work, its amazing. They have other
          > priests, but the priests haven't gone to seminary, so what Fr.Daniel
          > does is writes a homily for each priest to give to their parishes
          (more
          > like catacombs with the element of radical islam there) to make
          sure it
          > is theologically correct. Unfortunately, the Bishop over the land,
          > Bishop Nikitas of Hong Kong, demanded that they HAVE to do it in all
          > Greek (even though Fr.Daniel trainded the choir to do Agios O Theos
          just
          > for the Bishop and the people had NO clue what they were singing),
          so
          > there is a huge dispute there right now, and the tsunami doesn't
          help.
          > But, efforts are being made in different cultures for the spread of
          BM
          > to other lands, but each one has its own "flavor" added to it from
          the> culture.

          ****I must say that I find this extremely surprising: I know Metr.
          Nikitas, and have a high opinion of him as a missionary-minded bishop
          (as well as one with a sense of humour). I agree that there can be
          no justification for the use of GReek in such a case. Though I don't
          know Fr Daniel Byantoro, I do now of his extraordinary work.

          I have a tape recording of a Liturgy celebrated in Indonesia some
          years ago (at least ten), and it is all in the local language - do
          you know where that might have come from?

          In Christ,

          Ivan
        • Samuel Herron
          Dear Ivan, My guess would be Fr.Daniel had something to do with it. He has done a great job of encouraging and fostering congregational singing. He was been in
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 4 12:47 PM
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            Dear Ivan,

             

                  My guess would be Fr.Daniel had something to do with it. He has done a great job of encouraging and fostering congregational singing. He was been in Indonesia since before I was born evangelizing. He was baptized Orthodox in 1983, maybe sooner I am not sure, on Simonopetra Monastery, and graduated from Holy Cross, and has been in Indonesia ever since. Right now though, he actually is at Ohio State University but soon will be going back to Indonesia. Sadly, his mother died recently in Indonesia, but he could not go back for the funeral because of his visa status here. If you want to ask him about the tape, I can get his email address I am sure he would know. Send me a personal email if you want his address, I don’t want to let everybody have it without his permission. God bless.

                                   ~Samuel

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: psaltisuk [mailto:ivanmoody@...]
            Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 3:11 PM
            To: greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: On Harmony-"Romaic Chant" and other cultures

             


            Dear Samuel,

            --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Samuel Herron" <Samuel-
            Herron@u...> wrote:

            [snip]

            And I do not know about Taiwan,
            > but I personally know Fr.Daniel Byantoro who is the only seminary
            > trained Orthodox Priest in Indonesia. He, with a little help from
            me and
            > others in regards to the way Byzantine Music works, has started
            adding
            > Byzantine Hymns into Indonesian. He also has included some of the
            local
            > style music and culture into his work, its amazing. They have other
            > priests, but the priests haven't gone to seminary, so what Fr.Daniel
            > does is writes a homily for each priest to give to their parishes
            (more
            > like catacombs with the element of radical islam there) to make
            sure it
            > is theologically correct. Unfortunately, the Bishop over the land,
            > Bishop Nikitas of Hong Kong, demanded that they HAVE to do it in all
            > Greek (even though Fr.Daniel trainded the choir to do Agios O Theos
            just
            > for the Bishop and the people had NO clue what they were singing),
            so
            > there is a huge dispute there right now, and the tsunami doesn't
            help.
            > But, efforts are being made in different cultures for the spread of
            BM
            > to other lands, but each one has its own "flavor" added to it from
            the> culture.

            ****I must say that I find this extremely surprising: I know Metr.
            Nikitas, and have a high opinion of him as a missionary-minded bishop
            (as well as one with a sense of humour).  I agree that there can be
            no justification for the use of GReek in such a case.  Though I don't
            know Fr Daniel Byantoro, I do now of his extraordinary work.

            I have a tape recording of a Liturgy celebrated in Indonesia some
            years ago (at least ten), and it is all in the local language - do
            you know where that might have come from?

            In Christ,

            Ivan










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