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RE: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: English Byzantine Chant

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  • Apostolos (Paul) Combitsis
    Diana, It s interesting that you pose the question of whether education should be in Greek (liturgical or modern) or in English. Personally, in this country,
    Message 1 of 29 , Apr 1, 2005
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      Diana,
       
      It's interesting that you pose the question of whether education should be in Greek (liturgical or modern) or in English.  Personally, in this country, it would of course be more effective to use the English language to do the exegeses, with heavy emphasis on the LITURGICAL Greek, because that is the language of the Liturgy.  Incidently, I had a discussion once with a very good friend of mine who is a priest in Washington DC .  He felt that this whole afternoon Greek school thing is just not working here in the states.  The kids are taught modern Greek and, in the end, they only learn half of what they are taught, they hardly ever use the language in daily speaking (unless their parents are off the boat, and that is becoming rarer from generation to generation) and they STILL don't understand the Liturgy.  So, he proposes that LITURGICAL Greek be taught.  After all, what's the difference if the child learns, "to paidi EINAI" or "to paidi ESTI", both of which mean "the child IS".  At least, they will understand the Liturgy better.  Thinking about it, that whole idea isn't as far-fetched as one might think.
       
      The sermons should only be about 10 to 15 minutes long.  Some of these priests drag their sermons out and never get to the point!  And I really hate when they lump them together at the end of the Liturgy.  The Greek could easily be done after the Gospel (which is the sermon's rightful place in the Liturgy), and the English could be done at the end.  My father would do his Greek sermon after the "Axion estin" (probably only because he felt there were more people in church at that time, and it was a convenient breaking point), and English at the end.
       
      Thank you for confirming that when one studies on their own, they learn to appreciate their faith.  I tell people all the time:  "You don't understand the Liturgy?  Pick up a book and start reading!  Ask questions!  Investigate!  Don't expect to be spoon-fed!  You will get a lot more out of it."  I am 100% IN FAVOR of the Gospel being preached in the language of the people; however, there is a big difference between the preaching of the Gospel and Liturgical Tradition, which I maintain must be kept intact.  English should be the main tool for clergy which they can use to CONVEY the concepts of the faith, hold discussions, etc.  But, of course, always referring to the Greek. 
       
      Apostolos
      -----Original Message-----
      From: dianakg2003 [mailto:kizzymail51@...]
      Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 2:03 PM
      To: greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: English Byzantine Chant


      Apostolos, I never new Father Milton...We moved in 1969, so I knew
      Father George P.  and Father Nick Magoulias, who I think is still
      there...probably close to retirement... 

      You are right that education is important...and although I had my
      attendance pin from SS...I can say that the best education I had was
      in college, on my own, reading some of the books I had received from
      Father Bebes as a youth (i.e. Timothy Wares first book)- they sat on
      my shelves for a long time... Then I took a course with Prof. Father
      Meyendorff, visited St. Vlad's for lectures... and that's when I
      truly learned the faith.. a good portion of the motivation was social
      on campus with other 'lost' Orthodox...( I mean lost because the
      education we had received as kids was insufficient- note this is not
      a real criticism.. I know the GO church at that time was
      still 'finding its way here' ) 

      I do ask... should  education be in Greek or English?? And if it's in
      Greek, is it 'liturgical'or modern conversational...As  young adult I
      was less concerned that the liturgy was in Greek than the Homily and
      announcements...(like 'will the owner of car xyz move it because
      you're blocking the emergency lane'- done only in Greek!) Now they've
      started doing them in some churches in both Greek and English...
      which adds about 45 minutes to the service....what happens then is
      people start to leave after Liturgy and don't wait for antidoron....
      Basically people pray in their native tongue and the understanding is
      the best in that... However, I would agree that English is not the
      only answer, but just one of the tools that someone ...i.e. clergy..
      can use to connect the faith to current life in a meaningful way..
      For example, imagine a clergy trying to explain the issues
      surrounding the Schiavo case to today's youth, relate appropriate
      scripture, etc.. and engage them in active discussion without using
      English....He would have to use English...

      Who knows, maybe that's one reason why George Felos fell away from
      the GO church and started using Yoga for inspiration... I see him as
      someone about my generation... but A lost soul if I ever saw one...

      In XC, d.


      --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Apostolos \(Paul\)
      Combitsis" <apostolos@c...> wrote:
      > Samuel, nice job on the musical discussion.  Thank you for hitting
      the nail
      > on the head by recognizing that English is not necessarily the
      answer.  It
      > really isn't.  And the whole "boredom" issue is probably right on
      the money.
      > However (and now I go back to your argument about young people
      having a
      > spiritual father), I believe that EDUCATION is the key and that the
      priests
      > should... or, rather, MUST... take a more active role in educating
      the
      > masses.  If it is explained properly, members of the congregation
      can see
      > the Divine Liturgy as a drama unfolding before their eyes on the
      life of
      > Christ.  Following this drama (and understanding what they are
      following) is
      > a great way to alleviate boredom.  It becomes a "puzzle", of sorts,
      as
      > people listen to the prayers, hear the hymns, and are directed to
      prayer.
      > Whatever they don't understand, they can study after church.  Gee...
      > whatever happened to Sunday being "the Lord's day"?  Whatever
      happened to
      > reading the Bible with your family after church?  Whatever happened
      to the
      > DEDICATION of the first day of the week to Christ?  Is that so much
      to ask?
      >
      > Samuel, regarding the youth choir argument, I have to differ with
      you.  St.
      > George Cathedral in Philadelphia began a "Junior Choir" years ago. 
      Its sole
      > function, at the time, was to enter the Liturgical Music category
      of the
      > Sights and Sounds competition (for those of you who don't know, the
      > Philadelphia area and the North Jersey/New York areas have
      this "talent
      > show" of sorts called Sights and Sounds.  The youth enter this
      competition
      > in various categories ranging from art, poetry, essay writing,
      choral
      > speaking, Liturgical music, etc. ).  Anyway, for five straight
      years in a
      > row, this group won FIRST PLACE in this category.  The Junior Choir
      then
      > began coming up to the choir loft and actually began participating
      in the
      > Liturgy prior to them going down to Sunday School.  So, in many
      places, it
      > DOES work.  And if the kids have talent, they WILL want to sing in
      public.
      >
      > Diana... I really believe that today's teens THIRST for the truth
      and for
      > guidance.  Yes, they may think that adults are idiots and too old-
      fashioned,
      > but I really believe that they need help.  It's a matter of taking
      charge.
      > If YOU waver, THEY will waver.  Sure you could have a rebellious
      teen on
      > your hands, and that's normal.  But how you handle that rebellion
      will be
      > key in the growth of that child.  As for his spiritual upbringing,
      the
      > spiritual father plays a heavy role if he is a person who knows how
      to
      > connect with the kids.  (Did you ever know Fr. Milton Efthimiou? 
      He was
      > priest of St. Paul's in Hempstead for a while... here is a prime
      example of
      > a person who knows how to get to the youth...)
      >
      > Apostolos
      >   -----Original Message-----
      >   From: Samuel Herron [mailto:Samuel-Herron@u...]
      >   Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:39 PM
      >   To: greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com
      >   Subject: RE: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: English Byzantine Chant
      >
      >
      >   Personally I feel that we have the answer, and its guidance from
      the
      > clergy. If they don't step up and help then we are going to lose
      our youth.
      > I just don't see another way. I feel if the clergy isn't willing to
      help,
      > then nothing we as laity do will work. It just won't. Teens need
      spiritual
      > guidance and that falls under the clergy's responsibility. Now with
      that
      > being said it still then falls onto the individual teens decision
      whether or
      > not to follow through and whether or not the Orthodox Church is
      their
      > foundation of Faith or not. People are going to do what they want
      to do
      > ultimately. Eventually it has to be a decision they make, and we
      must not
      > put too much of the blame on us. Yes the youth face trying times,
      but when
      > have they not? Was raising a teen in the 60's, 70s, 80's or 90's
      any easier?
      > I think not. Look at the history. You have got the sexual
      revolution, rock
      > and roll, R & B culture, and basic young peoples desire to party.
      The church
      > will always face hard times and so will parents. It hasn't ever
      been easy.
      > Drugs? They aren't any more available than before the past fifty
      years. What
      > can we do? Show them the way. But it is still up to the individual
      whether
      > they chose to walk the path, we cannot walk it for them, and we
      can't hold
      > their hand the whole way either.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >   Back to the music. I think it is not that great of an idea to do
      a youth
      > choir or anything like that. Teens don';t want to sing in public. I
      wouldn't
      > want to do it now. The only reason I went to the Analogion was to
      keep
      > myself from getting bored out of my mind in the services. Now
      before we say
      > "How do we keep the youth from getting bored in the service?" We
      can't. It
      > is up to them whether they find it boring or not. It depends all on
      the
      > mindset they want to have. You cannot honestly tell me that teens
      get more
      > bored in Church than adults. I see it all the time. Adults get just
      as
      > bored. They express it differently, but they are just as bored. It
      has
      > nothing to do with the music ultimately. I go to a Church at home
      with an
      > amazing chanter, and the people are just as bored as they are at
      the Parish
      > I chant at now, and I am not that good. So we must do what is
      right, and we
      > cannot pander to the people too much. How to decrease boredom?
      English might
      > help, but once the novelty of doing it in the language everybody
      understands
      > wears off, they get bored again. So I think what we should do is
      follow the
      > Church Traditions on music and if it ends up being a few
      protopsalti and
      > monks doing the services, then so be it. We cannot deviate (not
      saying you
      > are advocating this) from tradition just to keep our churches full.
      > Unfortunately we are up against all odds to spread the truth, yet
      it spreads
      > anyway. A recent study shows that the Orthodox Church in America
      (all
      > canonical jurisdictions) is the largest growing body of united
      believers by
      > percentage since 1987. I can try to contact the professor who told
      me that
      > statistic, but I haven't talked to him in a year or so. Anyways,
      just look
      > at the flower of monasticism. More monasteries pop up each week it
      seems. We
      > are better off than it seems, despite all odds.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >   What does this mean (in my opinion) for us as the musicians of
      the church?
      > Nothing really in regards to evangelism, except maybe do more
      English. I
      > would say almost all English, but the materials of music in
      Byzantine Chant
      > in English are limited. This is where it becomes our job to change
      that.
      > Papa Ephraim is doing much work in this area along with Fr.Seraphim
      Dedes
      > and others through my own forgetfulness cannot recall. I also say
      do more
      > services and as we have said before, start slowly shifting the
      choir to more
      > traditional music. Slowly begin getting rid of organs, and also
      improve the
      > choir musical pieces itself. Some of the choir pieces that I see in
      use
      > would not sound good even if a fantastically trained choir sang
      them. The
      > pieces just aren't written well. We need to improve this, and we
      need to not
      > put it on others shoulder. Obviously I think we should go to all
      Byzantine
      > chant, everybody knows I think this, but I also see that that will
      likely
      > never happen or it will take years of transitional work for it to
      happen. We
      > cannot undo the work of the past 100 years in one year. We still
      run on
      > Orthodox time. For goodness sake St.Symeon the NEW Theologian died
      in the
      > 11th Century (1022 A.D. to be exact). We must though improve the
      music, even
      > if it is choir music, to the point of listenable tolerance. Some of
      the
      > pieces the choir here uses are so badly written that no choir could
      make
      > them sound good. If we are going to use Western Music, at least do
      it well.
      > It would be extremely stupid to do Western Style music and not even
      do it
      > well. This is the frustration I find. The lack of commitment to
      music in
      > general, Byzantine or Western. We must change this.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >   Sorry for the rambling, I get a little emotional on these topics
      for they
      > are close to my heart. God bless.
      >
      >           ~Samuel
      >
      >
      >
      >   -----Original Message-----
      >   From: dianakg2003 [mailto:kizzymail51@h...]
      >   Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 8:25 PM
      >   To: greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com
      >   Subject: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: English Byzantine Chant
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >   Samuel, You are so right about the role of a relationship with a
      >   spiritual father...but the reality is most clergy do not have the
      >   time to do it with so many parishioners, covering a huge geography
      >   (typical in the Orthodox churches, or the appreciation for the
      >   importance of this role.   I had no personal relationship with my
      >   parish priest, who is now very well known - Father Papadeas, who
      >   compiled the Holy Week Service book used by most churches, and
      signed
      >   my Sunday School Bible...I only remember being taught by him
      the 'Tes
      >   presvies' in our children's service before Sunday School... but
      >   truthfully while I sang it, the meaning and significance of asking
      >   for the intercession of the Theotokos was never fully explained...
      >   When I visited my grandparents in the  town of New Bedford, the
      >   priest there (Fr. Bebes, brother of the Professor) was a family
      >   friend and often came to the house for dinner when we were
      >   visiting... so the family had a relationship with him (though I
      >   didn't have a personal one).  And he always spoke English in the
      >   home... so I had a clue about who he was... That was the closest I
      >   came to  the ideal you mention..  For me I think the 'turning
      point'
      >   was being of a reaonable age when I saw the weeping Icon of the
      >   Theotokos at St. Paul's Cathedral, my childhood church...though it
      >   didn't give me real 'pause' until I was in college...and it was
      never
      >   really discussed by the priest with the Sunday School children...
      >
      >
      >   I think it important to note, with respect to getting kids to
      church
      >   these days vs. years ago, is that there are more risks with
      pushing
      >   too far these days: drugs, cults,guns, etc... and the pressures on
      >   kids to succeed is more than ever before...As I tour colleges
      with my
      >   son and see what is 'expected' of the applicants and what kids do
      to
      >   try to enhance their chances of acceptance... It is amazing anyone
      >   has time for church at all between school clubs, varsity sports,
      >   community work,SAT prep classes, etc...and many activities are
      held
      >   on Sundays...  School violence such as Columbine and Red Lake was
      >   never heard of before...We are living in very difficult times...
      and
      >   while I wish I were younger, I shiver at what it must be like in
      High
      >   School now with drugs so available, guns in the homes,etc- keeps
      me
      >   awake at night sometimes...So, while the approach worked for you
      and
      >   I, it doesn't work for many these days.... two of my younger sis'
      and
      >   I were fine with it (though of course we 'complained' at times)...
      >   but my other younger sister less so, she left the church and
      became
      >   ordained as a non-denominational minister.... Note, she wanted
      faith,
      >   but the GO church at that time appeared irrelevant to the issues
      she
      >   had...Other people I know had huge issues with their teens in high
      >   school...One family, in which the mother is a convert, the father
      >   very active in the church and choir,  had one daughter, who has
      just
      >   decided to marry in a Protestant church...and now one of my sis'
      is
      >   struggling with her "11 year old daughter going on 14"- who has
      >   suddently decided she hates Greek dancing (in which she was very
      >   involved), ballet, church, etc... I don't know how long
      this 'siege'
      >   will last....
      >
      >   It is easy to understand why the evangelicals are reportedly so
      >   successful on college campuses... where they have found a huge
      pool
      >   of people that need spiritual nourishment and they have found a
      way
      >   to reach them with prayer and song...
      >
      >   Now, to bring this topic back to the musical tradition of the
      >   church...while we 'discuss' whether it is better in Greek or
      English
      >   and whether the words line up perfectly with the notes of the
      various
      >   tones,in some ways this is an academic discussion... A primary
      role
      >   must be to inspire and keep the next generation... before the
      church
      >   is empty...and only the few psaltis and monks remain chanting them
      >   perfectly.... Ways to do this are now being attempted with 'angel
      >   choirs', which work for the very young and may help when this
      group
      >   is adolescent... but today's teen ??? What do we do to help them??
      >
      >   In XC, D.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >   --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Samuel Herron"
      <Samuel-
      >   Herron@u...> wrote:
      >   > Thank you for this quote Papa Ephraim, it is the perfect quote
      for
      >   our
      >   > situation and I think answers all our questions.
      >   >
      >   >       I don't know how this tangent got started on the youth,
      but
      >   > being one who was president of a Youth group just last year
      here is
      >   what
      >   > I have to say.
      >   >
      >   > Diana said:
      >   > The issue of today's youth is a challenging one, because parents
      >   are
      >   > afraid to push too hard on 'dress', even for church... they just
      >   want
      >   > their kids to go to church... The real issue is how the church
      can
      >   > help parents inspire children to want to go to church, with
      minimal
      >   > parent push, and then inspire proper attire, morality ,etc...
      And
      >   it
      >   > is a bigger issue I think for the GO's because that whole Greek
      >   > speaking vs. not Greek speaking families further divides the
      youth
      >   as
      >   > well...and some kids don't feel they fit in with 'GOYA' ... A
      child
      >   > who does not speak Greek at home is part of American society and
      >   yet
      >   > the church is one place where they cannot always find
      >   > their 'fit'...unless they happen to attend a church
      predominantly
      >   > like them...For many families the church is not a 'helper' on
      this
      >   > issue- the help with the development of the next generation...
      >   >
      >   > Samuel:  It is a challenging one but at the same time I get
      >   frustrated
      >   > at my fellow teens parents lack of discipline towards their
      child.
      >   My
      >   > mother told me how it was straight up. You go to church and you
      >   dress
      >   > nicely. I hated her for awhile because I hated having to go to
      >   church
      >   > EVERY Sunday. But she didn't really care. Parents seem
      >   (understandably)
      >   > to want their kids to like them, but getting their kids to like
      them
      >   > shouldn't be their goal. I still have a hard time getting along
      >   with my
      >   > mother because of how tense things were in high school, but I am
      >   > thankful that she forced me to go to church against my will
      every
      >   single
      >   > day. It taught me that Church is not where you go when you feel
      >   like it,
      >   > or feel happy. It's a commitment that you must make no matter
      how
      >   much
      >   > you do not want to go. People seem to give kids the option. SO
      many
      >   > times do I ask my friend why he wasn't at Church and he will
      say "I
      >   was
      >   > tired, so my mom let me sleep in." That makes me cringe, not
      for my
      >   > friends sake, but for the mother who let him sleep in. It just
      >   irritates
      >   > me. I don't get it.
      >   >         It isn't as if the Church wouldn't be willing to help
      >   either. I
      >   > have never met a priest, bishop, monk, or nun who didn't love
      kids
      >   and
      >   > wasn't willing to talk to them. My little brother went with my
      Dad
      >   to
      >   > St.Anthony's a year or so ago and Elder Ephraim doted on my
      little
      >   > brother for 3 minutes even as everybody approached him calling
      out
      >   his
      >   > name. I personally blame a lot of it on the expectations of the
      >   youth in
      >   > the Orthodox Church in America. There are none. No expectations
      at
      >   all.
      >   >       I think the best way to get a child to want to go to
      church is
      >   > to make sure they have a healthy relationship with a spiritual
      >   father. I
      >   > think it is even more important for a kid to have a Sipritual
      Father
      >   > during his teen years than later in life. These are the
      developing
      >   years
      >   > that will shape the rest of their life, yet many kids never
      talk to
      >   > their priests and never consider them a resource of proper
      guidance.
      >   > This is what I think of it. Without a Spiritual Father, they do
      not
      >   > develop a spiritual mind and heart. They develop what they soak
      in,
      >   and
      >   > all they are soaking in without spiritual guidance is MTV. God
      >   bless.
      >   >        ~Samuel
      >   >
      >   > -----Original Message-----
      >   > From: Father Ephraim [mailto:frephraim@f...]
      >   > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 3:24 AM
      >   > To: greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com
      >   > Subject: Re: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: English Byzantine Chant
      >   >
      >   >
      >   > Here's a relevant quote from St. Ambrose of Milan (d. 397 A.D.):
      >   >
      >   > The Apostle admonishes women to be silent in church, yet they do
      >   well to
      >   > join in a psalm; this is gratifying for all ages and fitting for
      >   both
      >   > sexes. Old men ignore the stiffness of age to sing [a psalm],
      and
      >   > melancholy veterans echo it in the joy of their hearts; young
      men
      >   sing
      >   > one without the bane of lust, as do adolescents without threat
      from
      >   > their insecure age or the temptation of sensual pleasure; even
      young
      >   > women sing psalms with no loss of wifely decency, and girls
      sing a
      >   hymn
      >   > to God with sweet and supple voice while maintaining decorum and
      >   > suffering no lapse of modesty. Youth is eager to understand [a
      >   psalm],
      >   > and the child who refuses to learn other things takes pleasure
      in
      >   > contemplating it; it is a kind of play, productive of more
      learning
      >   that
      >   > that which is dispensed with stern discipline.
      >   >
      >   > - St. Ambrose, On Psalm 1 (PL 14:924-5)
      >   >
      >   > On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:54:32 -0600, "Dana Netherton"
      >   > <dana@n...> said:
      >   > >
      >   > > On 29 Mar 2005 at 0:36, Stan Takis wrote:
      >   > >
      >   > > > --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Samuel Herron"
      >   > > > <Samuel-Herron@u...> wrote:
      >   > > > > Personally, unlike others, I have no problem with women
      at the
      >   > > > > Analogion. Why would women be allowed at the Analogion of
      a
      >   Womens
      >   > > > > Monastery but not a regular Parish?
      >   > > >
      >   > > > Samuel:
      >   > > >
      >   > > > Someone must have a problem with it. Jessica Suchy-Pilalis
      and
      >   my
      >   > wife
      >   > > > are the only two women in the history of the American Greek
      >   Orthodox
      >   > > > Church to have been blessed as a chanter by a heirarch.
      Jessica
      >   is
      >   > the
      >   > > > only woman to have been tonsured as well. I know there are
      other
      >   > women
      >   > > > chanting out there, but no one higher up seems to be
      encouraging
      >   > them
      >   > > > very much.
      >   > >
      >   > > I should add that in my oh-so-enlightened parish, a couple of
      >   women
      >   > > who respectfully expressed an interest in joining us at the
      >   Analogion
      >   > > (including one who had studied at Holy Cross and knew BM
      better
      >   than
      >   > > 99% of the people in the parish) -- ladies who received our
      >   parish
      >   > > priest's permission to join us -- were in the end discouraged
      >   from
      >   > > continuing.
      >   > >
      >   > > Not because of complaints from us chanters, oh no!  Because of
      >   > > complaints from the pews.
      >   > >
      >   > > Including complaints from ladies in the pews.  *sigh* Go
      figure!
      >   > >
      >   > > Thanks, everyone, for discussing this aspect of the topic with
      >   > > sobriety and with mutual tolerance.  No, I don't expect us to
      >   come up
      >   > > with policy guidance for the hierarchs -- heaven forbid!
      >   > >
      >   > > But I think it's worthwhile for us to be aware of the, ah,
      >   > > "unintended consequences" of any changes that we do wish to
      >   support.
      >   > >
      >   > > In Christ,
      >   > >
      >   > > (Mr) Dana Netherton, dana@n...
      >   > > -------------
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    • dianakg2003
      Apostolos, I posed the language question as somewhat rhetorical, my personal view is the same as yours...if there is a language education program it should be
      Message 2 of 29 , Apr 1, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Apostolos, I posed the language question as somewhat rhetorical, my
        personal view is the same as yours...if there is a language education
        program it should be biblical studies and liturgical Greek.
        I remember when one of my friends from Greece told me 'I don't
        understand the Greek of the liturgy all the time either'...

        Yet the UPR's say that all parishes must have a Greek language
        program, meaning modern Greek. Why on earth would that be a church
        requirement??? (I noted that the Metropolitan elect Gerasimos stated
        in his 'acceptance speech' that he wanted to revive the Greek
        language tradition classes even more... seems way off base from what
        needs to happen to spread the faith to others.)

        I had the occasion to meet a Jewish lady who told me of the dilemma
        in their faith. Apparently to be bar mitzfahed, the child must be
        enrollled in Hebrew school for several years earlier and learn to
        read the scriptures in Hebrew. The challenge is that many of the
        temples charge several thousand dollars to be members and be able to
        enroll . That is where the reformed movement is getting it's members
        from, according to her. But, regardless, the education is very
        biblically focused. When I was a kid, I used to do my GS homework
        when my neighbor/playmate did her Hebrew school homework. While I was
        learning "the cat likes milk", she was reading the Old testament in
        Hebrew... a big difference. And now, with all the CD programs for
        languages, it is very easy to teach the conversational language in
        the home. In fact I had to do this for a business trip to Greece,
        since I had forgotten alot because, we never spoke it at home... my
        grandparents were from Asia minor, and the language in their home was
        Turkish. ( so here I was at 10 years old, trying to teach my father
        Greek, with elementary texts, no wonder I hated GS... I only finished
        the 2 years upon promise of piano lessons.) It is for this reason
        that I am not sending my kids to GS. We have the Pimsleur course in
        Greek and Chinese (an interest of my husband's that emerged with a
        business trip) If and when they are interested in learning. All my
        relatives are gone and noone speaks Greek in the home.

        Whereas other ethnic groups have the 'Sons of Italy', and other
        groups like that for ethnic events, the mixing up of the church with
        these things has wide ramifications... and locks the faith in a
        paradigm of an 'immigrant' faith as opposed to realizing a vision of
        a truly global faith, with globally relevant discussions,gospel
        lessons, music, etc. It gives me the perception that the church is
        afraid if the ethnic 'nationalistic greek wall' were to come down,it
        wouldn't know how to proceed on certain issues. It acts like it gets
        its strength from that, and not from Christ...
        In XC, D.


        --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Apostolos \(Paul\)
        Combitsis" <apostolos@c...> wrote:
        > Diana,
        >
        > It's interesting that you pose the question of whether education
        should be
        > in Greek (liturgical or modern) or in English. Personally, in this
        country,
        > it would of course be more effective to use the English language to
        do the
        > exegeses, with heavy emphasis on the LITURGICAL Greek, because that
        is the
        > language of the Liturgy. Incidently, I had a discussion once with
        a very
        > good friend of mine who is a priest in Washington DC . He felt
        that this
        > whole afternoon Greek school thing is just not working here in the
        states.
        > The kids are taught modern Greek and, in the end, they only learn
        half of
        > what they are taught, they hardly ever use the language in daily
        speaking
        > (unless their parents are off the boat, and that is becoming rarer
        from
        > generation to generation) and they STILL don't understand the
        Liturgy. So,
        > he proposes that LITURGICAL Greek be taught. After all, what's the
        > difference if the child learns, "to paidi EINAI" or "to paidi
        ESTI", both of
        > which mean "the child IS". At least, they will understand the
        Liturgy
        > better. Thinking about it, that whole idea isn't as far-fetched as
        one
        > might think.
        >
        > The sermons should only be about 10 to 15 minutes long. Some of
        these
        > priests drag their sermons out and never get to the point! And I
        really
        > hate when they lump them together at the end of the Liturgy. The
        Greek
        > could easily be done after the Gospel (which is the sermon's
        rightful place
        > in the Liturgy), and the English could be done at the end. My
        father would
        > do his Greek sermon after the "Axion estin" (probably only because
        he felt
        > there were more people in church at that time, and it was a
        convenient
        > breaking point), and English at the end.
        >
        > Thank you for confirming that when one studies on their own, they
        learn to
        > appreciate their faith. I tell people all the time: "You don't
        understand
        > the Liturgy? Pick up a book and start reading! Ask questions!
        > Investigate! Don't expect to be spoon-fed! You will get a lot
        more out of
        > it." I am 100% IN FAVOR of the Gospel being preached in the
        language of the
        > people; however, there is a big difference between the preaching of
        the
        > Gospel and Liturgical Tradition, which I maintain must be kept
        intact.
        > English should be the main tool for clergy which they can use to
        CONVEY the
        > concepts of the faith, hold discussions, etc. But, of course,
        always
        > referring to the Greek.
        >
        > Apostolos
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: dianakg2003 [mailto:kizzymail51@h...]
        > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 2:03 PM
        > To: greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: English Byzantine Chant
        >
        >
        >
        > Apostolos, I never new Father Milton...We moved in 1969, so I knew
        > Father George P. and Father Nick Magoulias, who I think is still
        > there...probably close to retirement...
        >
        > You are right that education is important...and although I had my
        > attendance pin from SS...I can say that the best education I had
        was
        > in college, on my own, reading some of the books I had received
        from
        > Father Bebes as a youth (i.e. Timothy Wares first book)- they sat
        on
        > my shelves for a long time... Then I took a course with Prof.
        Father
        > Meyendorff, visited St. Vlad's for lectures... and that's when I
        > truly learned the faith.. a good portion of the motivation was
        social
        > on campus with other 'lost' Orthodox...( I mean lost because the
        > education we had received as kids was insufficient- note this is
        not
        > a real criticism.. I know the GO church at that time was
        > still 'finding its way here' )
        >
        > I do ask... should education be in Greek or English?? And if
        it's in
        > Greek, is it 'liturgical'or modern conversational...As young
        adult I
        > was less concerned that the liturgy was in Greek than the Homily
        and
        > announcements...(like 'will the owner of car xyz move it because
        > you're blocking the emergency lane'- done only in Greek!) Now
        they've
        > started doing them in some churches in both Greek and English...
        > which adds about 45 minutes to the service....what happens then is
        > people start to leave after Liturgy and don't wait for
        antidoron....
        > Basically people pray in their native tongue and the
        understanding is
        > the best in that... However, I would agree that English is not the
        > only answer, but just one of the tools that someone ...i.e.
        clergy..
        > can use to connect the faith to current life in a meaningful way..
        > For example, imagine a clergy trying to explain the issues
        > surrounding the Schiavo case to today's youth, relate appropriate
        > scripture, etc.. and engage them in active discussion without
        using
        > English....He would have to use English...
        >
        > Who knows, maybe that's one reason why George Felos fell away from
        > the GO church and started using Yoga for inspiration... I see him
        as
        > someone about my generation... but A lost soul if I ever saw
        one...
        >
        > In XC, d.
        >
        >
        > --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Apostolos \(Paul\)
        > Combitsis" <apostolos@c...> wrote:
        > > Samuel, nice job on the musical discussion. Thank you for
        hitting
        > the nail
        > > on the head by recognizing that English is not necessarily the
        > answer. It
        > > really isn't. And the whole "boredom" issue is probably right
        on
        > the money.
        > > However (and now I go back to your argument about young people
        > having a
        > > spiritual father), I believe that EDUCATION is the key and that
        the
        > priests
        > > should... or, rather, MUST... take a more active role in
        educating
        > the
        > > masses. If it is explained properly, members of the
        congregation
        > can see
        > > the Divine Liturgy as a drama unfolding before their eyes on the
        > life of
        > > Christ. Following this drama (and understanding what they are
        > following) is
        > > a great way to alleviate boredom. It becomes a "puzzle", of
        sorts,
        > as
        > > people listen to the prayers, hear the hymns, and are directed
        to
        > prayer.
        > > Whatever they don't understand, they can study after church.
        Gee...
        > > whatever happened to Sunday being "the Lord's day"? Whatever
        > happened to
        > > reading the Bible with your family after church? Whatever
        happened
        > to the
        > > DEDICATION of the first day of the week to Christ? Is that so
        much
        > to ask?
        > >
        > > Samuel, regarding the youth choir argument, I have to differ
        with
        > you. St.
        > > George Cathedral in Philadelphia began a "Junior Choir" years
        ago.
        > Its sole
        > > function, at the time, was to enter the Liturgical Music
        category
        > of the
        > > Sights and Sounds competition (for those of you who don't know,
        the
        > > Philadelphia area and the North Jersey/New York areas have
        > this "talent
        > > show" of sorts called Sights and Sounds. The youth enter this
        > competition
        > > in various categories ranging from art, poetry, essay writing,
        > choral
        > > speaking, Liturgical music, etc. ). Anyway, for five straight
        > years in a
        > > row, this group won FIRST PLACE in this category. The Junior
        Choir
        > then
        > > began coming up to the choir loft and actually began
        participating
        > in the
        > > Liturgy prior to them going down to Sunday School. So, in many
        > places, it
        > > DOES work. And if the kids have talent, they WILL want to sing
        in
        > public.
        > >
        > > Diana... I really believe that today's teens THIRST for the
        truth
        > and for
        > > guidance. Yes, they may think that adults are idiots and too
        old-
        > fashioned,
        > > but I really believe that they need help. It's a matter of
        taking
        > charge.
        > > If YOU waver, THEY will waver. Sure you could have a rebellious
        > teen on
        > > your hands, and that's normal. But how you handle that
        rebellion
        > will be
        > > key in the growth of that child. As for his spiritual
        upbringing,
        > the
        > > spiritual father plays a heavy role if he is a person who knows
        how
        > to
        > > connect with the kids. (Did you ever know Fr. Milton Efthimiou?
        > He was
        > > priest of St. Paul's in Hempstead for a while... here is a prime
        > example of
        > > a person who knows how to get to the youth...)
        > >
        > > Apostolos
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Samuel Herron [mailto:Samuel-Herron@u...]
        > > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:39 PM
        > > To: greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: RE: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: English Byzantine Chant
        > >
        > >
        > > Personally I feel that we have the answer, and its guidance
        from
        > the
        > > clergy. If they don't step up and help then we are going to lose
        > our youth.
        > > I just don't see another way. I feel if the clergy isn't
        willing to
        > help,
        > > then nothing we as laity do will work. It just won't. Teens need
        > spiritual
        > > guidance and that falls under the clergy's responsibility. Now
        with
        > that
        > > being said it still then falls onto the individual teens
        decision
        > whether or
        > > not to follow through and whether or not the Orthodox Church is
        > their
        > > foundation of Faith or not. People are going to do what they
        want
        > to do
        > > ultimately. Eventually it has to be a decision they make, and we
        > must not
        > > put too much of the blame on us. Yes the youth face trying
        times,
        > but when
        > > have they not? Was raising a teen in the 60's, 70s, 80's or 90's
        > any easier?
        > > I think not. Look at the history. You have got the sexual
        > revolution, rock
        > > and roll, R & B culture, and basic young peoples desire to
        party.
        > The church
        > > will always face hard times and so will parents. It hasn't ever
        > been easy.
        > > Drugs? They aren't any more available than before the past fifty
        > years. What
        > > can we do? Show them the way. But it is still up to the
        individual
        > whether
        > > they chose to walk the path, we cannot walk it for them, and we
        > can't hold
        > > their hand the whole way either.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Back to the music. I think it is not that great of an idea to
        do
        > a youth
        > > choir or anything like that. Teens don';t want to sing in
        public. I
        > wouldn't
        > > want to do it now. The only reason I went to the Analogion was
        to
        > keep
        > > myself from getting bored out of my mind in the services. Now
        > before we say
        > > "How do we keep the youth from getting bored in the service?" We
        > can't. It
        > > is up to them whether they find it boring or not. It depends
        all on
        > the
        > > mindset they want to have. You cannot honestly tell me that
        teens
        > get more
        > > bored in Church than adults. I see it all the time. Adults get
        just
        > as
        > > bored. They express it differently, but they are just as bored.
        It
        > has
        > > nothing to do with the music ultimately. I go to a Church at
        home
        > with an
        > > amazing chanter, and the people are just as bored as they are at
        > the Parish
        > > I chant at now, and I am not that good. So we must do what is
        > right, and we
        > > cannot pander to the people too much. How to decrease boredom?
        > English might
        > > help, but once the novelty of doing it in the language everybody
        > understands
        > > wears off, they get bored again. So I think what we should do is
        > follow the
        > > Church Traditions on music and if it ends up being a few
        > protopsalti and
        > > monks doing the services, then so be it. We cannot deviate (not
        > saying you
        > > are advocating this) from tradition just to keep our churches
        full.
        > > Unfortunately we are up against all odds to spread the truth,
        yet
        > it spreads
        > > anyway. A recent study shows that the Orthodox Church in America
        > (all
        > > canonical jurisdictions) is the largest growing body of united
        > believers by
        > > percentage since 1987. I can try to contact the professor who
        told
        > me that
        > > statistic, but I haven't talked to him in a year or so. Anyways,
        > just look
        > > at the flower of monasticism. More monasteries pop up each week
        it
        > seems. We
        > > are better off than it seems, despite all odds.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > What does this mean (in my opinion) for us as the musicians of
        > the church?
        > > Nothing really in regards to evangelism, except maybe do more
        > English. I
        > > would say almost all English, but the materials of music in
        > Byzantine Chant
        > > in English are limited. This is where it becomes our job to
        change
        > that.
        > > Papa Ephraim is doing much work in this area along with
        Fr.Seraphim
        > Dedes
        > > and others through my own forgetfulness cannot recall. I also
        say
        > do more
        > > services and as we have said before, start slowly shifting the
        > choir to more
        > > traditional music. Slowly begin getting rid of organs, and also
        > improve the
        > > choir musical pieces itself. Some of the choir pieces that I
        see in
        > use
        > > would not sound good even if a fantastically trained choir sang
        > them. The
        > > pieces just aren't written well. We need to improve this, and we
        > need to not
        > > put it on others shoulder. Obviously I think we should go to all
        > Byzantine
        > > chant, everybody knows I think this, but I also see that that
        will
        > likely
        > > never happen or it will take years of transitional work for it
        to
        > happen. We
        > > cannot undo the work of the past 100 years in one year. We still
        > run on
        > > Orthodox time. For goodness sake St.Symeon the NEW Theologian
        died
        > in the
        > > 11th Century (1022 A.D. to be exact). We must though improve the
        > music, even
        > > if it is choir music, to the point of listenable tolerance.
        Some of
        > the
        > > pieces the choir here uses are so badly written that no choir
        could
        > make
        > > them sound good. If we are going to use Western Music, at least
        do
        > it well.
        > > It would be extremely stupid to do Western Style music and not
        even
        > do it
        > > well. This is the frustration I find. The lack of commitment to
        > music in
        > > general, Byzantine or Western. We must change this.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Sorry for the rambling, I get a little emotional on these
        topics
        > for they
        > > are close to my heart. God bless.
        > >
        > > ~Samuel
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: dianakg2003 [mailto:kizzymail51@h...]
        > > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 8:25 PM
        > > To: greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: English Byzantine Chant
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Samuel, You are so right about the role of a relationship
        with a
        > > spiritual father...but the reality is most clergy do not have
        the
        > > time to do it with so many parishioners, covering a huge
        geography
        > > (typical in the Orthodox churches, or the appreciation for the
        > > importance of this role. I had no personal relationship
        with my
        > > parish priest, who is now very well known - Father Papadeas,
        who
        > > compiled the Holy Week Service book used by most churches, and
        > signed
        > > my Sunday School Bible...I only remember being taught by him
        > the 'Tes
        > > presvies' in our children's service before Sunday School...
        but
        > > truthfully while I sang it, the meaning and significance of
        asking
        > > for the intercession of the Theotokos was never fully
        explained...
        > > When I visited my grandparents in the town of New Bedford,
        the
        > > priest there (Fr. Bebes, brother of the Professor) was a
        family
        > > friend and often came to the house for dinner when we were
        > > visiting... so the family had a relationship with him (though
        I
        > > didn't have a personal one). And he always spoke English in
        the
        > > home... so I had a clue about who he was... That was the
        closest I
        > > came to the ideal you mention.. For me I think the 'turning
        > point'
        > > was being of a reaonable age when I saw the weeping Icon of
        the
        > > Theotokos at St. Paul's Cathedral, my childhood
        church...though it
        > > didn't give me real 'pause' until I was in college...and it
        was
        > never
        > > really discussed by the priest with the Sunday School
        children...
        > >
        > >
        > > I think it important to note, with respect to getting kids to
        > church
        > > these days vs. years ago, is that there are more risks with
        > pushing
        > > too far these days: drugs, cults,guns, etc... and the
        pressures on
        > > kids to succeed is more than ever before...As I tour colleges
        > with my
        > > son and see what is 'expected' of the applicants and what
        kids do
        > to
        > > try to enhance their chances of acceptance... It is amazing
        anyone
        > > has time for church at all between school clubs, varsity
        sports,
        > > community work,SAT prep classes, etc...and many activities are
        > held
        > > on Sundays... School violence such as Columbine and Red Lake
        was
        > > never heard of before...We are living in very difficult
        times...
        > and
        > > while I wish I were younger, I shiver at what it must be like
        in
        > High
        > > School now with drugs so available, guns in the homes,etc-
        keeps
        > me
        > > awake at night sometimes...So, while the approach worked for
        you
        > and
        > > I, it doesn't work for many these days.... two of my younger
        sis'
        > and
        > > I were fine with it (though of course we 'complained' at
        times)...
        > > but my other younger sister less so, she left the church and
        > became
        > > ordained as a non-denominational minister.... Note, she wanted
        > faith,
        > > but the GO church at that time appeared irrelevant to the
        issues
        > she
        > > had...Other people I know had huge issues with their teens in
        high
        > > school...One family, in which the mother is a convert, the
        father
        > > very active in the church and choir, had one daughter, who
        has
        > just
        > > decided to marry in a Protestant church...and now one of my
        sis'
        > is
        > > struggling with her "11 year old daughter going on 14"- who
        has
        > > suddently decided she hates Greek dancing (in which she was
        very
        > > involved), ballet, church, etc... I don't know how long
        > this 'siege'
        > > will last....
        > >
        > > It is easy to understand why the evangelicals are reportedly
        so
        > > successful on college campuses... where they have found a huge
        > pool
        > > of people that need spiritual nourishment and they have found
        a
        > way
        > > to reach them with prayer and song...
        > >
        > > Now, to bring this topic back to the musical tradition of the
        > > church...while we 'discuss' whether it is better in Greek or
        > English
        > > and whether the words line up perfectly with the notes of the
        > various
        > > tones,in some ways this is an academic discussion... A primary
        > role
        > > must be to inspire and keep the next generation... before the
        > church
        > > is empty...and only the few psaltis and monks remain chanting
        them
        > > perfectly.... Ways to do this are now being attempted
        with 'angel
        > > choirs', which work for the very young and may help when this
        > group
        > > is adolescent... but today's teen ??? What do we do to help
        them??
        > >
        > > In XC, D.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Samuel Herron"
        > <Samuel-
        > > Herron@u...> wrote:
        > > > Thank you for this quote Papa Ephraim, it is the perfect
        quote
        > for
        > > our
        > > > situation and I think answers all our questions.
        > > >
        > > > I don't know how this tangent got started on the
        youth,
        > but
        > > > being one who was president of a Youth group just last year
        > here is
        > > what
        > > > I have to say.
        > > >
        > > > Diana said:
        > > > The issue of today's youth is a challenging one, because
        parents
        > > are
        > > > afraid to push too hard on 'dress', even for church... they
        just
        > > want
        > > > their kids to go to church... The real issue is how the
        church
        > can
        > > > help parents inspire children to want to go to church, with
        > minimal
        > > > parent push, and then inspire proper attire,
        morality ,etc...
        > And
        > > it
        > > > is a bigger issue I think for the GO's because that whole
        Greek
        > > > speaking vs. not Greek speaking families further divides the
        > youth
        > > as
        > > > well...and some kids don't feel they fit in with 'GOYA' ...
        A
        > child
        > > > who does not speak Greek at home is part of American
        society and
        > > yet
        > > > the church is one place where they cannot always find
        > > > their 'fit'...unless they happen to attend a church
        > predominantly
        > > > like them...For many families the church is not a 'helper'
        on
        > this
        > > > issue- the help with the development of the next
        generation...
        > > >
        > > > Samuel: It is a challenging one but at the same time I get
        > > frustrated
        > > > at my fellow teens parents lack of discipline towards their
        > child.
        > > My
        > > > mother told me how it was straight up. You go to church and
        you
        > > dress
        > > > nicely. I hated her for awhile because I hated having to go
        to
        > > church
        > > > EVERY Sunday. But she didn't really care. Parents seem
        > > (understandably)
        > > > to want their kids to like them, but getting their kids to
        like
        > them
        > > > shouldn't be their goal. I still have a hard time getting
        along
        > > with my
        > > > mother because of how tense things were in high school, but
        I am
        > > > thankful that she forced me to go to church against my will
        > every
        > > single
        > > > day. It taught me that Church is not where you go when you
        feel
        > > like it,
        > > > or feel happy. It's a commitment that you must make no
        matter
        > how
        > > much
        > > > you do not want to go. People seem to give kids the option.
        SO
        > many
        > > > times do I ask my friend why he wasn't at Church and he will
        > say "I
        > > was
        > > > tired, so my mom let me sleep in." That makes me cringe, not
        > for my
        > > > friends sake, but for the mother who let him sleep in. It
        just
        > > irritates
        > > > me. I don't get it.
        > > > It isn't as if the Church wouldn't be willing to
        help
        > > either. I
        > > > have never met a priest, bishop, monk, or nun who didn't
        love
        > kids
        > > and
        > > > wasn't willing to talk to them. My little brother went with
        my
        > Dad
        > > to
        > > > St.Anthony's a year or so ago and Elder Ephraim doted on my
        > little
        > > > brother for 3 minutes even as everybody approached him
        calling
        > out
        > > his
        > > > name. I personally blame a lot of it on the expectations of
        the
        > > youth in
        > > > the Orthodox Church in America. There are none. No
        expectations
        > at
        > > all.
        > > > I think the best way to get a child to want to go to
        > church is
        > > > to make sure they have a healthy relationship with a
        spiritual
        > > father. I
        > > > think it is even more important for a kid to have a
        Sipritual
        > Father
        > > > during his teen years than later in life. These are the
        > developing
        > > years
        > > > that will shape the rest of their life, yet many kids never
        > talk to
        > > > their priests and never consider them a resource of proper
        > guidance.
        > > > This is what I think of it. Without a Spiritual Father,
        they do
        > not
        > > > develop a spiritual mind and heart. They develop what they
        soak
        > in,
        > > and
        > > > all they are soaking in without spiritual guidance is MTV.
        God
        > > bless.
        > > > ~Samuel
        > > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: Father Ephraim [mailto:frephraim@f...]
        > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 3:24 AM
        > > > To: greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Subject: Re: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: English Byzantine
        Chant
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Here's a relevant quote from St. Ambrose of Milan (d. 397
        A.D.):
        > > >
        > > > The Apostle admonishes women to be silent in church, yet
        they do
        > > well to
        > > > join in a psalm; this is gratifying for all ages and
        fitting for
        > > both
        > > > sexes. Old men ignore the stiffness of age to sing [a
        psalm],
        > and
        > > > melancholy veterans echo it in the joy of their hearts;
        young
        > men
        > > sing
        > > > one without the bane of lust, as do adolescents without
        threat
        > from
        > > > their insecure age or the temptation of sensual pleasure;
        even
        > young
        > > > women sing psalms with no loss of wifely decency, and girls
        > sing a
        > > hymn
        > > > to God with sweet and supple voice while maintaining
        decorum and
        > > > suffering no lapse of modesty. Youth is eager to understand
        [a
        > > psalm],
        > > > and the child who refuses to learn other things takes
        pleasure
        > in
        > > > contemplating it; it is a kind of play, productive of more
        > learning
        > > that
        > > > that which is dispensed with stern discipline.
        > > >
        > > > - St. Ambrose, On Psalm 1 (PL 14:924-5)
        > > >
        > > > On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:54:32 -0600, "Dana Netherton"
        > > > <dana@n...> said:
        > > > >
        > > > > On 29 Mar 2005 at 0:36, Stan Takis wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > > --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Samuel
        Herron"
        > > > > > <Samuel-Herron@u...> wrote:
        > > > > > > Personally, unlike others, I have no problem with
        women
        > at the
        > > > > > > Analogion. Why would women be allowed at the
        Analogion of
        > a
        > > Womens
        > > > > > > Monastery but not a regular Parish?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Samuel:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Someone must have a problem with it. Jessica Suchy-
        Pilalis
        > and
        > > my
        > > > wife
        > > > > > are the only two women in the history of the American
        Greek
        > > Orthodox
        > > > > > Church to have been blessed as a chanter by a heirarch.
        > Jessica
        > > is
        > > > the
        > > > > > only woman to have been tonsured as well. I know there
        are
        > other
        > > > women
        > > > > > chanting out there, but no one higher up seems to be
        > encouraging
        > > > them
        > > > > > very much.
        > > > >
        > > > > I should add that in my oh-so-enlightened parish, a
        couple of
        > > women
        > > > > who respectfully expressed an interest in joining us at
        the
        > > Analogion
        > > > > (including one who had studied at Holy Cross and knew BM
        > better
        > > than
        > > > > 99% of the people in the parish) -- ladies who received
        our
        > > parish
        > > > > priest's permission to join us -- were in the end
        discouraged
        > > from
        > > > > continuing.
        > > > >
        > > > > Not because of complaints from us chanters, oh no!
        Because of
        > > > > complaints from the pews.
        > > > >
        > > > > Including complaints from ladies in the pews. *sigh* Go
        > figure!
        > > > >
        > > > > Thanks, everyone, for discussing this aspect of the topic
        with
        > > > > sobriety and with mutual tolerance. No, I don't expect
        us to
        > > come up
        > > > > with policy guidance for the hierarchs -- heaven forbid!
        > > > >
        > > > > But I think it's worthwhile for us to be aware of the, ah,
        > > > > "unintended consequences" of any changes that we do wish
        to
        > > support.
        > > > >
        > > > > In Christ,
        > > > >
        > > > > (Mr) Dana Netherton, dana@n...
        > > > > -------------
        > > > > Polonius: My Lord, I will use them according to their
        desert.
        > > > > Hamlet: God's bodykins, man, much better: use every man
        > after
        > > > > his desert, and who should 'scape whipping?
        > > > > (Act II, scene ii)
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > --
        > > > Father Ephraim
        > > > frephraim@f...
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > > ADVERTISEMENT
        > > Children International
        > > Would you give Hope to a Child in
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        > > Learn More
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
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        > > --
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        > >
        > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/greekorthodoxmusic/
        > >
        > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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      • dianakg2003
        Apostolos, I posed the language question as somewhat rhetorical, my personal view is the same as yours...if there is a language education program it should be
        Message 3 of 29 , Apr 1, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Apostolos, I posed the language question as somewhat rhetorical, my
          personal view is the same as yours...if there is a language education
          program it should be biblical studies and liturgical Greek.
          I remember when one of my friends from Greece told me 'I don't
          understand the Greek of the liturgy all the time either'...

          Yet the UPR's say that all parishes must have a Greek language
          program, meaning modern Greek. Why on earth would that be a church
          requirement??? (I noted that the Metropolitan elect Gerasimos stated
          in his 'acceptance speech' that he wanted to revive the Greek
          language tradition classes even more... seems way off base from what
          needs to happen to spread the faith to others.)

          I had the occasion to meet a Jewish lady who told me of the dilemma
          in their faith. Apparently to be bar mitzfahed, the child must be
          enrollled in Hebrew school for several years earlier and learn to
          read the scriptures in Hebrew. The challenge is that many of the
          temples charge several thousand dollars to be members and be able to
          enroll . That is where the reformed movement is getting it's members
          from, according to her. But, regardless, the education is very
          biblically focused. When I was a kid, I used to do my GS homework
          when my neighbor/playmate did her Hebrew school homework. While I was
          learning "the cat likes milk", she was reading the Old testament in
          Hebrew... a big difference. And now, with all the CD programs for
          languages, it is very easy to teach the conversational language in
          the home. In fact I had to do this for a business trip to Greece,
          since I had forgotten alot because, we never spoke it at home... my
          grandparents were from Asia minor, and the language in their home was
          Turkish. ( so here I was at 10 years old, trying to teach my father
          Greek, with elementary texts, no wonder I hated GS... I only finished
          the 2 years upon promise of piano lessons.) It is for this reason
          that I am not sending my kids to GS. We have the Pimsleur course in
          Greek and Chinese (an interest of my husband's that emerged with a
          business trip) If and when they are interested in learning. All my
          relatives are gone and noone speaks Greek in the home.

          Whereas other ethnic groups have the 'Sons of Italy', and other
          groups like that for ethnic events, the mixing up of the church with
          these things has wide ramifications... and locks the faith in a
          paradigm of an 'immigrant' faith as opposed to realizing a vision of
          a truly global faith, with globally relevant discussions,gospel
          lessons, music, etc. It gives me the perception that the church is
          afraid if the ethnic 'nationalistic greek wall' were to come down,it
          wouldn't know how to proceed on certain issues. It acts like it gets
          its strength from that, and not from Christ...
          In XC, D.


          --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Apostolos \(Paul\)
          Combitsis" <apostolos@c...> wrote:
          > Diana,
          >
          > It's interesting that you pose the question of whether education
          should be
          > in Greek (liturgical or modern) or in English. Personally, in this
          country,
          > it would of course be more effective to use the English language to
          do the
          > exegeses, with heavy emphasis on the LITURGICAL Greek, because that
          is the
          > language of the Liturgy. Incidently, I had a discussion once with
          a very
          > good friend of mine who is a priest in Washington DC . He felt
          that this
          > whole afternoon Greek school thing is just not working here in the
          states.
          > The kids are taught modern Greek and, in the end, they only learn
          half of
          > what they are taught, they hardly ever use the language in daily
          speaking
          > (unless their parents are off the boat, and that is becoming rarer
          from
          > generation to generation) and they STILL don't understand the
          Liturgy. So,
          > he proposes that LITURGICAL Greek be taught. After all, what's the
          > difference if the child learns, "to paidi EINAI" or "to paidi
          ESTI", both of
          > which mean "the child IS". At least, they will understand the
          Liturgy
          > better. Thinking about it, that whole idea isn't as far-fetched as
          one
          > might think.
          >
          > The sermons should only be about 10 to 15 minutes long. Some of
          these
          > priests drag their sermons out and never get to the point! And I
          really
          > hate when they lump them together at the end of the Liturgy. The
          Greek
          > could easily be done after the Gospel (which is the sermon's
          rightful place
          > in the Liturgy), and the English could be done at the end. My
          father would
          > do his Greek sermon after the "Axion estin" (probably only because
          he felt
          > there were more people in church at that time, and it was a
          convenient
          > breaking point), and English at the end.
          >
          > Thank you for confirming that when one studies on their own, they
          learn to
          > appreciate their faith. I tell people all the time: "You don't
          understand
          > the Liturgy? Pick up a book and start reading! Ask questions!
          > Investigate! Don't expect to be spoon-fed! You will get a lot
          more out of
          > it." I am 100% IN FAVOR of the Gospel being preached in the
          language of the
          > people; however, there is a big difference between the preaching of
          the
          > Gospel and Liturgical Tradition, which I maintain must be kept
          intact.
          > English should be the main tool for clergy which they can use to
          CONVEY the
          > concepts of the faith, hold discussions, etc. But, of course,
          always
          > referring to the Greek.
          >
          > Apostolos
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: dianakg2003 [mailto:kizzymail51@h...]
          > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 2:03 PM
          > To: greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: English Byzantine Chant
          >
          >
          >
          > Apostolos, I never new Father Milton...We moved in 1969, so I knew
          > Father George P. and Father Nick Magoulias, who I think is still
          > there...probably close to retirement...
          >
          > You are right that education is important...and although I had my
          > attendance pin from SS...I can say that the best education I had
          was
          > in college, on my own, reading some of the books I had received
          from
          > Father Bebes as a youth (i.e. Timothy Wares first book)- they sat
          on
          > my shelves for a long time... Then I took a course with Prof.
          Father
          > Meyendorff, visited St. Vlad's for lectures... and that's when I
          > truly learned the faith.. a good portion of the motivation was
          social
          > on campus with other 'lost' Orthodox...( I mean lost because the
          > education we had received as kids was insufficient- note this is
          not
          > a real criticism.. I know the GO church at that time was
          > still 'finding its way here' )
          >
          > I do ask... should education be in Greek or English?? And if
          it's in
          > Greek, is it 'liturgical'or modern conversational...As young
          adult I
          > was less concerned that the liturgy was in Greek than the Homily
          and
          > announcements...(like 'will the owner of car xyz move it because
          > you're blocking the emergency lane'- done only in Greek!) Now
          they've
          > started doing them in some churches in both Greek and English...
          > which adds about 45 minutes to the service....what happens then is
          > people start to leave after Liturgy and don't wait for
          antidoron....
          > Basically people pray in their native tongue and the
          understanding is
          > the best in that... However, I would agree that English is not the
          > only answer, but just one of the tools that someone ...i.e.
          clergy..
          > can use to connect the faith to current life in a meaningful way..
          > For example, imagine a clergy trying to explain the issues
          > surrounding the Schiavo case to today's youth, relate appropriate
          > scripture, etc.. and engage them in active discussion without
          using
          > English....He would have to use English...
          >
          > Who knows, maybe that's one reason why George Felos fell away from
          > the GO church and started using Yoga for inspiration... I see him
          as
          > someone about my generation... but A lost soul if I ever saw
          one...
          >
          > In XC, d.
          >
          >
          > --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Apostolos \(Paul\)
          > Combitsis" <apostolos@c...> wrote:
          > > Samuel, nice job on the musical discussion. Thank you for
          hitting
          > the nail
          > > on the head by recognizing that English is not necessarily the
          > answer. It
          > > really isn't. And the whole "boredom" issue is probably right
          on
          > the money.
          > > However (and now I go back to your argument about young people
          > having a
          > > spiritual father), I believe that EDUCATION is the key and that
          the
          > priests
          > > should... or, rather, MUST... take a more active role in
          educating
          > the
          > > masses. If it is explained properly, members of the
          congregation
          > can see
          > > the Divine Liturgy as a drama unfolding before their eyes on the
          > life of
          > > Christ. Following this drama (and understanding what they are
          > following) is
          > > a great way to alleviate boredom. It becomes a "puzzle", of
          sorts,
          > as
          > > people listen to the prayers, hear the hymns, and are directed
          to
          > prayer.
          > > Whatever they don't understand, they can study after church.
          Gee...
          > > whatever happened to Sunday being "the Lord's day"? Whatever
          > happened to
          > > reading the Bible with your family after church? Whatever
          happened
          > to the
          > > DEDICATION of the first day of the week to Christ? Is that so
          much
          > to ask?
          > >
          > > Samuel, regarding the youth choir argument, I have to differ
          with
          > you. St.
          > > George Cathedral in Philadelphia began a "Junior Choir" years
          ago.
          > Its sole
          > > function, at the time, was to enter the Liturgical Music
          category
          > of the
          > > Sights and Sounds competition (for those of you who don't know,
          the
          > > Philadelphia area and the North Jersey/New York areas have
          > this "talent
          > > show" of sorts called Sights and Sounds. The youth enter this
          > competition
          > > in various categories ranging from art, poetry, essay writing,
          > choral
          > > speaking, Liturgical music, etc. ). Anyway, for five straight
          > years in a
          > > row, this group won FIRST PLACE in this category. The Junior
          Choir
          > then
          > > began coming up to the choir loft and actually began
          participating
          > in the
          > > Liturgy prior to them going down to Sunday School. So, in many
          > places, it
          > > DOES work. And if the kids have talent, they WILL want to sing
          in
          > public.
          > >
          > > Diana... I really believe that today's teens THIRST for the
          truth
          > and for
          > > guidance. Yes, they may think that adults are idiots and too
          old-
          > fashioned,
          > > but I really believe that they need help. It's a matter of
          taking
          > charge.
          > > If YOU waver, THEY will waver. Sure you could have a rebellious
          > teen on
          > > your hands, and that's normal. But how you handle that
          rebellion
          > will be
          > > key in the growth of that child. As for his spiritual
          upbringing,
          > the
          > > spiritual father plays a heavy role if he is a person who knows
          how
          > to
          > > connect with the kids. (Did you ever know Fr. Milton Efthimiou?
          > He was
          > > priest of St. Paul's in Hempstead for a while... here is a prime
          > example of
          > > a person who knows how to get to the youth...)
          > >
          > > Apostolos
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Samuel Herron [mailto:Samuel-Herron@u...]
          > > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:39 PM
          > > To: greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: RE: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: English Byzantine Chant
          > >
          > >
          > > Personally I feel that we have the answer, and its guidance
          from
          > the
          > > clergy. If they don't step up and help then we are going to lose
          > our youth.
          > > I just don't see another way. I feel if the clergy isn't
          willing to
          > help,
          > > then nothing we as laity do will work. It just won't. Teens need
          > spiritual
          > > guidance and that falls under the clergy's responsibility. Now
          with
          > that
          > > being said it still then falls onto the individual teens
          decision
          > whether or
          > > not to follow through and whether or not the Orthodox Church is
          > their
          > > foundation of Faith or not. People are going to do what they
          want
          > to do
          > > ultimately. Eventually it has to be a decision they make, and we
          > must not
          > > put too much of the blame on us. Yes the youth face trying
          times,
          > but when
          > > have they not? Was raising a teen in the 60's, 70s, 80's or 90's
          > any easier?
          > > I think not. Look at the history. You have got the sexual
          > revolution, rock
          > > and roll, R & B culture, and basic young peoples desire to
          party.
          > The church
          > > will always face hard times and so will parents. It hasn't ever
          > been easy.
          > > Drugs? They aren't any more available than before the past fifty
          > years. What
          > > can we do? Show them the way. But it is still up to the
          individual
          > whether
          > > they chose to walk the path, we cannot walk it for them, and we
          > can't hold
          > > their hand the whole way either.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Back to the music. I think it is not that great of an idea to
          do
          > a youth
          > > choir or anything like that. Teens don';t want to sing in
          public. I
          > wouldn't
          > > want to do it now. The only reason I went to the Analogion was
          to
          > keep
          > > myself from getting bored out of my mind in the services. Now
          > before we say
          > > "How do we keep the youth from getting bored in the service?" We
          > can't. It
          > > is up to them whether they find it boring or not. It depends
          all on
          > the
          > > mindset they want to have. You cannot honestly tell me that
          teens
          > get more
          > > bored in Church than adults. I see it all the time. Adults get
          just
          > as
          > > bored. They express it differently, but they are just as bored.
          It
          > has
          > > nothing to do with the music ultimately. I go to a Church at
          home
          > with an
          > > amazing chanter, and the people are just as bored as they are at
          > the Parish
          > > I chant at now, and I am not that good. So we must do what is
          > right, and we
          > > cannot pander to the people too much. How to decrease boredom?
          > English might
          > > help, but once the novelty of doing it in the language everybody
          > understands
          > > wears off, they get bored again. So I think what we should do is
          > follow the
          > > Church Traditions on music and if it ends up being a few
          > protopsalti and
          > > monks doing the services, then so be it. We cannot deviate (not
          > saying you
          > > are advocating this) from tradition just to keep our churches
          full.
          > > Unfortunately we are up against all odds to spread the truth,
          yet
          > it spreads
          > > anyway. A recent study shows that the Orthodox Church in America
          > (all
          > > canonical jurisdictions) is the largest growing body of united
          > believers by
          > > percentage since 1987. I can try to contact the professor who
          told
          > me that
          > > statistic, but I haven't talked to him in a year or so. Anyways,
          > just look
          > > at the flower of monasticism. More monasteries pop up each week
          it
          > seems. We
          > > are better off than it seems, despite all odds.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > What does this mean (in my opinion) for us as the musicians of
          > the church?
          > > Nothing really in regards to evangelism, except maybe do more
          > English. I
          > > would say almost all English, but the materials of music in
          > Byzantine Chant
          > > in English are limited. This is where it becomes our job to
          change
          > that.
          > > Papa Ephraim is doing much work in this area along with
          Fr.Seraphim
          > Dedes
          > > and others through my own forgetfulness cannot recall. I also
          say
          > do more
          > > services and as we have said before, start slowly shifting the
          > choir to more
          > > traditional music. Slowly begin getting rid of organs, and also
          > improve the
          > > choir musical pieces itself. Some of the choir pieces that I
          see in
          > use
          > > would not sound good even if a fantastically trained choir sang
          > them. The
          > > pieces just aren't written well. We need to improve this, and we
          > need to not
          > > put it on others shoulder. Obviously I think we should go to all
          > Byzantine
          > > chant, everybody knows I think this, but I also see that that
          will
          > likely
          > > never happen or it will take years of transitional work for it
          to
          > happen. We
          > > cannot undo the work of the past 100 years in one year. We still
          > run on
          > > Orthodox time. For goodness sake St.Symeon the NEW Theologian
          died
          > in the
          > > 11th Century (1022 A.D. to be exact). We must though improve the
          > music, even
          > > if it is choir music, to the point of listenable tolerance.
          Some of
          > the
          > > pieces the choir here uses are so badly written that no choir
          could
          > make
          > > them sound good. If we are going to use Western Music, at least
          do
          > it well.
          > > It would be extremely stupid to do Western Style music and not
          even
          > do it
          > > well. This is the frustration I find. The lack of commitment to
          > music in
          > > general, Byzantine or Western. We must change this.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Sorry for the rambling, I get a little emotional on these
          topics
          > for they
          > > are close to my heart. God bless.
          > >
          > > ~Samuel
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: dianakg2003 [mailto:kizzymail51@h...]
          > > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 8:25 PM
          > > To: greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: English Byzantine Chant
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Samuel, You are so right about the role of a relationship
          with a
          > > spiritual father...but the reality is most clergy do not have
          the
          > > time to do it with so many parishioners, covering a huge
          geography
          > > (typical in the Orthodox churches, or the appreciation for the
          > > importance of this role. I had no personal relationship
          with my
          > > parish priest, who is now very well known - Father Papadeas,
          who
          > > compiled the Holy Week Service book used by most churches, and
          > signed
          > > my Sunday School Bible...I only remember being taught by him
          > the 'Tes
          > > presvies' in our children's service before Sunday School...
          but
          > > truthfully while I sang it, the meaning and significance of
          asking
          > > for the intercession of the Theotokos was never fully
          explained...
          > > When I visited my grandparents in the town of New Bedford,
          the
          > > priest there (Fr. Bebes, brother of the Professor) was a
          family
          > > friend and often came to the house for dinner when we were
          > > visiting... so the family had a relationship with him (though
          I
          > > didn't have a personal one). And he always spoke English in
          the
          > > home... so I had a clue about who he was... That was the
          closest I
          > > came to the ideal you mention.. For me I think the 'turning
          > point'
          > > was being of a reaonable age when I saw the weeping Icon of
          the
          > > Theotokos at St. Paul's Cathedral, my childhood
          church...though it
          > > didn't give me real 'pause' until I was in college...and it
          was
          > never
          > > really discussed by the priest with the Sunday School
          children...
          > >
          > >
          > > I think it important to note, with respect to getting kids to
          > church
          > > these days vs. years ago, is that there are more risks with
          > pushing
          > > too far these days: drugs, cults,guns, etc... and the
          pressures on
          > > kids to succeed is more than ever before...As I tour colleges
          > with my
          > > son and see what is 'expected' of the applicants and what
          kids do
          > to
          > > try to enhance their chances of acceptance... It is amazing
          anyone
          > > has time for church at all between school clubs, varsity
          sports,
          > > community work,SAT prep classes, etc...and many activities are
          > held
          > > on Sundays... School violence such as Columbine and Red Lake
          was
          > > never heard of before...We are living in very difficult
          times...
          > and
          > > while I wish I were younger, I shiver at what it must be like
          in
          > High
          > > School now with drugs so available, guns in the homes,etc-
          keeps
          > me
          > > awake at night sometimes...So, while the approach worked for
          you
          > and
          > > I, it doesn't work for many these days.... two of my younger
          sis'
          > and
          > > I were fine with it (though of course we 'complained' at
          times)...
          > > but my other younger sister less so, she left the church and
          > became
          > > ordained as a non-denominational minister.... Note, she wanted
          > faith,
          > > but the GO church at that time appeared irrelevant to the
          issues
          > she
          > > had...Other people I know had huge issues with their teens in
          high
          > > school...One family, in which the mother is a convert, the
          father
          > > very active in the church and choir, had one daughter, who
          has
          > just
          > > decided to marry in a Protestant church...and now one of my
          sis'
          > is
          > > struggling with her "11 year old daughter going on 14"- who
          has
          > > suddently decided she hates Greek dancing (in which she was
          very
          > > involved), ballet, church, etc... I don't know how long
          > this 'siege'
          > > will last....
          > >
          > > It is easy to understand why the evangelicals are reportedly
          so
          > > successful on college campuses... where they have found a huge
          > pool
          > > of people that need spiritual nourishment and they have found
          a
          > way
          > > to reach them with prayer and song...
          > >
          > > Now, to bring this topic back to the musical tradition of the
          > > church...while we 'discuss' whether it is better in Greek or
          > English
          > > and whether the words line up perfectly with the notes of the
          > various
          > > tones,in some ways this is an academic discussion... A primary
          > role
          > > must be to inspire and keep the next generation... before the
          > church
          > > is empty...and only the few psaltis and monks remain chanting
          them
          > > perfectly.... Ways to do this are now being attempted
          with 'angel
          > > choirs', which work for the very young and may help when this
          > group
          > > is adolescent... but today's teen ??? What do we do to help
          them??
          > >
          > > In XC, D.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Samuel Herron"
          > <Samuel-
          > > Herron@u...> wrote:
          > > > Thank you for this quote Papa Ephraim, it is the perfect
          quote
          > for
          > > our
          > > > situation and I think answers all our questions.
          > > >
          > > > I don't know how this tangent got started on the
          youth,
          > but
          > > > being one who was president of a Youth group just last year
          > here is
          > > what
          > > > I have to say.
          > > >
          > > > Diana said:
          > > > The issue of today's youth is a challenging one, because
          parents
          > > are
          > > > afraid to push too hard on 'dress', even for church... they
          just
          > > want
          > > > their kids to go to church... The real issue is how the
          church
          > can
          > > > help parents inspire children to want to go to church, with
          > minimal
          > > > parent push, and then inspire proper attire,
          morality ,etc...
          > And
          > > it
          > > > is a bigger issue I think for the GO's because that whole
          Greek
          > > > speaking vs. not Greek speaking families further divides the
          > youth
          > > as
          > > > well...and some kids don't feel they fit in with 'GOYA' ...
          A
          > child
          > > > who does not speak Greek at home is part of American
          society and
          > > yet
          > > > the church is one place where they cannot always find
          > > > their 'fit'...unless they happen to attend a church
          > predominantly
          > > > like them...For many families the church is not a 'helper'
          on
          > this
          > > > issue- the help with the development of the next
          generation...
          > > >
          > > > Samuel: It is a challenging one but at the same time I get
          > > frustrated
          > > > at my fellow teens parents lack of discipline towards their
          > child.
          > > My
          > > > mother told me how it was straight up. You go to church and
          you
          > > dress
          > > > nicely. I hated her for awhile because I hated having to go
          to
          > > church
          > > > EVERY Sunday. But she didn't really care. Parents seem
          > > (understandably)
          > > > to want their kids to like them, but getting their kids to
          like
          > them
          > > > shouldn't be their goal. I still have a hard time getting
          along
          > > with my
          > > > mother because of how tense things were in high school, but
          I am
          > > > thankful that she forced me to go to church against my will
          > every
          > > single
          > > > day. It taught me that Church is not where you go when you
          feel
          > > like it,
          > > > or feel happy. It's a commitment that you must make no
          matter
          > how
          > > much
          > > > you do not want to go. People seem to give kids the option.
          SO
          > many
          > > > times do I ask my friend why he wasn't at Church and he will
          > say "I
          > > was
          > > > tired, so my mom let me sleep in." That makes me cringe, not
          > for my
          > > > friends sake, but for the mother who let him sleep in. It
          just
          > > irritates
          > > > me. I don't get it.
          > > > It isn't as if the Church wouldn't be willing to
          help
          > > either. I
          > > > have never met a priest, bishop, monk, or nun who didn't
          love
          > kids
          > > and
          > > > wasn't willing to talk to them. My little brother went with
          my
          > Dad
          > > to
          > > > St.Anthony's a year or so ago and Elder Ephraim doted on my
          > little
          > > > brother for 3 minutes even as everybody approached him
          calling
          > out
          > > his
          > > > name. I personally blame a lot of it on the expectations of
          the
          > > youth in
          > > > the Orthodox Church in America. There are none. No
          expectations
          > at
          > > all.
          > > > I think the best way to get a child to want to go to
          > church is
          > > > to make sure they have a healthy relationship with a
          spiritual
          > > father. I
          > > > think it is even more important for a kid to have a
          Sipritual
          > Father
          > > > during his teen years than later in life. These are the
          > developing
          > > years
          > > > that will shape the rest of their life, yet many kids never
          > talk to
          > > > their priests and never consider them a resource of proper
          > guidance.
          > > > This is what I think of it. Without a Spiritual Father,
          they do
          > not
          > > > develop a spiritual mind and heart. They develop what they
          soak
          > in,
          > > and
          > > > all they are soaking in without spiritual guidance is MTV.
          God
          > > bless.
          > > > ~Samuel
          > > >
          > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > From: Father Ephraim [mailto:frephraim@f...]
          > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 3:24 AM
          > > > To: greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com
          > > > Subject: Re: [greekorthodoxmusic] Re: English Byzantine
          Chant
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Here's a relevant quote from St. Ambrose of Milan (d. 397
          A.D.):
          > > >
          > > > The Apostle admonishes women to be silent in church, yet
          they do
          > > well to
          > > > join in a psalm; this is gratifying for all ages and
          fitting for
          > > both
          > > > sexes. Old men ignore the stiffness of age to sing [a
          psalm],
          > and
          > > > melancholy veterans echo it in the joy of their hearts;
          young
          > men
          > > sing
          > > > one without the bane of lust, as do adolescents without
          threat
          > from
          > > > their insecure age or the temptation of sensual pleasure;
          even
          > young
          > > > women sing psalms with no loss of wifely decency, and girls
          > sing a
          > > hymn
          > > > to God with sweet and supple voice while maintaining
          decorum and
          > > > suffering no lapse of modesty. Youth is eager to understand
          [a
          > > psalm],
          > > > and the child who refuses to learn other things takes
          pleasure
          > in
          > > > contemplating it; it is a kind of play, productive of more
          > learning
          > > that
          > > > that which is dispensed with stern discipline.
          > > >
          > > > - St. Ambrose, On Psalm 1 (PL 14:924-5)
          > > >
          > > > On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:54:32 -0600, "Dana Netherton"
          > > > <dana@n...> said:
          > > > >
          > > > > On 29 Mar 2005 at 0:36, Stan Takis wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > > --- In greekorthodoxmusic@yahoogroups.com, "Samuel
          Herron"
          > > > > > <Samuel-Herron@u...> wrote:
          > > > > > > Personally, unlike others, I have no problem with
          women
          > at the
          > > > > > > Analogion. Why would women be allowed at the
          Analogion of
          > a
          > > Womens
          > > > > > > Monastery but not a regular Parish?
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Samuel:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Someone must have a problem with it. Jessica Suchy-
          Pilalis
          > and
          > > my
          > > > wife
          > > > > > are the only two women in the history of the American
          Greek
          > > Orthodox
          > > > > > Church to have been blessed as a chanter by a heirarch.
          > Jessica
          > > is
          > > > the
          > > > > > only woman to have been tonsured as well. I know there
          are
          > other
          > > > women
          > > > > > chanting out there, but no one higher up seems to be
          > encouraging
          > > > them
          > > > > > very much.
          > > > >
          > > > > I should add that in my oh-so-enlightened parish, a
          couple of
          > > women
          > > > > who respectfully expressed an interest in joining us at
          the
          > > Analogion
          > > > > (including one who had studied at Holy Cross and knew BM
          > better
          > > than
          > > > > 99% of the people in the parish) -- ladies who received
          our
          > > parish
          > > > > priest's permission to join us -- were in the end
          discouraged
          > > from
          > > > > continuing.
          > > > >
          > > > > Not because of complaints from us chanters, oh no!
          Because of
          > > > > complaints from the pews.
          > > > >
          > > > > Including complaints from ladies in the pews. *sigh* Go
          > figure!
          > > > >
          > > > > Thanks, everyone, for discussing this aspect of the topic
          with
          > > > > sobriety and with mutual tolerance. No, I don't expect
          us to
          > > come up
          > > > > with policy guidance for the hierarchs -- heaven forbid!
          > > > >
          > > > > But I think it's worthwhile for us to be aware of the, ah,
          > > > > "unintended consequences" of any changes that we do wish
          to
          > > support.
          > > > >
          > > > > In Christ,
          > > > >
          > > > > (Mr) Dana Netherton, dana@n...
          > > > > -------------
          > > > > Polonius: My Lord, I will use them according to their
          desert.
          > > > > Hamlet: God's bodykins, man, much better: use every man
          > after
          > > > > his desert, and who should 'scape whipping?
          > > > > (Act II, scene ii)
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > --
          > > > Father Ephraim
          > > > frephraim@f...
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
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