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Re: SN GYROSCOPE Design on ISS may endanger Shuttle and Space Station

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  • mysterygravity
    Just a few words concerning the ISS Gyro situation. As we know since there have been 2 CMG failures since 2000 when the CMGs were placed in operation, that
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 29, 2006
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                   Just a few words concerning the ISS Gyro situation. As we know since there have been 2 CMG failures since 2000 when the CMGs were placed in operation, that would seem to present a 3 year average for expected failures of this design. I will include some links at the end for further review. However at this point 2 of the CMGs have been in operation for 6 years with partial time of extended wear periods for both of these when one gyro has been offline thereby increasing the wear on those 2 dramatically. One gyro is now on the ground being refurbished but it requires a heavy lift vehicle such as the Shuttle to bring these up. There might be the potential of a new design re-entry pod for  used gyros to be sent back to Earth without the use of the Shuttle, but that would be another project.Regardless the continued use of a limited lifetime design CMG that is not repairable in space does not make sense unless there is a replacement craft for the Shuttle very soon, as the Shuttle is due to be retired very soon. The ISS can continue on Russian thrusters/jets but this will destroy the majority of the microgravity experiments that were intended for the International Space Station. It will also increase the number of potential resupply missions needed to keep the ISS fueled. There might be a possibility, if talk is begun, of a quantity of smaller gyros being brought up by ESA and Russian craft and perhaps other nations could also be brought onboard in this effort. Smaller rockets could bring the smaller gyros up , but they would all need to be synchronized by computer to operate as one to help stabilize/orient/and maintain attitude of the station. As long as control is maintained by Gyro- it doesn't matter how many, but it needs to be enough to maintain attitude/orientation of the mass of the ISS, then the Microgravity experiments can continue. Microgravity experimentation is vital in a large amount of pure science, manufacturing techniques, medications, well the list goes on and on and is a subject all it's own, but was to be a vital part of the advancement expected by humanity from this International Space Station. This goes beyond borders, it really is for all.If the US is unable to come up with all the solutions, then the world community must step forward and begin to offer answers and make offers to help in this situation. We are falling short, but to proceed in a wreckless manner will not solve issues that are not going away without everybody laying their cards on the table.
         I will now include some links to data concerning the situation which all can review at their leisure, but time is short , time to speak up is very rapidly approaching.

      Preliminary Document of CMG as of 1997;
      http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=164698&id=2&qs=Ntt%3Dcmg%252Biss%252Battitude%26Ntk%3Dall%26Ntx%3Dmode%2520matchall%26N%3D0%26Ns%3DPublicationYear%257c1
      CMG PDF Document 1997 showing initial concept 24pg.;
      http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19970017408_1997026074.pdf
      CMG Manufactured by L3 Communications (NJ) Primary integrator; Boeing;
      http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/returntoflight/sts-114/cmg.html
      CMG Image;
      http://sts-114.jaxa.jp/mission/contents/eva/images/083-cmg.jpg
      Laptops as interface and troubleshooter and gyro setup  details;
      http://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/news/releases/2001/01_51AR.html
      Video page on CMG replacement;
      http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/video/shuttle/sts-114/html/fd0.html
      News storyof first CMG replacement,BBC;
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4734341.stm
      Illustration of installation of new CMG;
      http://spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts114/041219preview/041219cmgreplace.jpg

      Here is a small demonstration model of a CMG that gives a simple example of the vital elements of a CMG and helps to get your mind around the concept, {also a review of the science Gyro post and the demonstration by the astronaut helps for those unfamiliar with gyros} Demonstration Model CMG;
      http://www.ecpsystems.com/controls_ctrlgyro.htm

      Mystery   B-)

       

      --------------------------------

      --- In gravitationalpropulsionstevenson@yahoogroups.com, "mysterygravity" <mysterystevenson1@...> wrote:

       
      I have been following this problem with the Gyros on the International Space Station for the last few weeks and events have been getting worse. At first they played down the problem and went through a series of tests, and while the Gyro in the most trouble is now down, they still will not define it as defunct. http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=22293

      Everytime a story is published a different number of minimum gyros is mentioned. Politics do not change PHYSICS ! The Gyros are used to maintain stability and most important attitude, so that the solar panels can track the sun for energy. Without the Gyros the station would use massive amounts of propellant to maintain attitude, and the station would also undergo stresses that it is not designed to maintain for extended periods of time.
       
      The reason this is becoming critical is because the last Shuttle just added a large amount of Mass to the station in the form of solar panels and supplies. The gyroscopic forces needed to maintain attitude is proportional to the ammount of Mass that needs to be controlled or maintained as to attitude. With more mass and fewer gyros the stress put on the remaining gyros increases proportionately. As many will remember we have already had to replace with some difficulty one of these massive Gyros, and the continued failure of these devices, is indicative of a likely design flaw. Bringing more construction (mass) to the station before the gyro problem is addressed is inviting disaster. Here is a link to what is available to the public.
       http://www.spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts116/061010cmg/
       http://www.spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts116/061010cmg/
       
      There is a very likely chance that the failure rate will begin to increase on these Gyro designs. Emergency redundancy Gyros are vital.
       Too bad these Gyros were not made to be repaired in space, bearings go out-duh, these devices are not even needed to be designed by rocket scientists, although they do need to take into account the environment that the gyros will be used in and the torque and forces that will be experienced. If they have these panels deployed while the mass of the Shuttle is connected to the station and shut down all but one gyro, as it appears may be needed now if they follow through with the construction schedule, then the thrusters may be needed to maintain orientation, but if that is too much force for the assembly to take then it could collapse right onto the Shuttle, and if that happens, more than a piece of foam will be effected. I don't want to say what could happen! We are talking astronauts on the Shuttle and the Station, and the Shuttle and the Station themselves.
       
      TIME TO THINK ...
       
      MYSTERY   B-)

    • mysterygravity
      Again the CMG s are becoming an issue on the ISS. Again I feel it is possible to supply supplimental gyroscopic systems before it is too late, if that is
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 12, 2007
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             Again the CMG's are becoming an issue on the ISS. Again I feel it is possible to supply supplimental gyroscopic systems before it is too late, if that is within our political will. The issues are being blamed on computer glitches and on and on, but stresses on the entire station are being "amassed". Here is a current link as to breaking news,but think there will be more;

        http://www.spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts117/070612cmgs/

        There is more about  recent testing of the one down CMG and yet sources are continuously mentioning the 4 Gyro system as though all function...See near the end of this BBC story;

        http://bbsnews.net/article.php/2007051521254433

        Here are some  older links to our posts on similar subjects ;

        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/gravitationalpropulsionstevenson/message/45

        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/gravitationalpropulsionstevenson/message/86

           Please note that there is a copy of one of my communications to NASA concerning this issue from last year in our private files area in the "Time Capsule" in the group. Also in the public links area of the group is a link to a free video link with it's own player that has as one of it's channels a NASA link for live viewing of what is happening.There are continuing issues almost hourly and so am holding back on indications that are now unfolding...

             Note ; unrelated  that a sister group to this group has been started and soon will release invitations to join in the expansion.

        Mystery  B-)

         

         

        ____________________________

        --- In gravitationalpropulsionstevenson@yahoogroups.com, "mysterygravity" <mysterystevenson1@...> wrote:
          
        Just a few words concerning the ISS Gyro situation. As we know since there have been 2 CMG failures since 2000 when the CMGs were placed in operation, that would seem to present a 3 year average for expected failures of this design. I will include some links at the end for further review. However at this point 2 of the CMGs have been in operation for 6 years with partial time of extended wear periods for both of these when one gyro has been offline thereby increasing the wear on those 2 dramatically. One gyro is now on the ground being refurbished but it requires a heavy lift vehicle such as the Shuttle to bring these up. There might be the potential of a new design re-entry pod for used gyros to be sent back to Earth without the use of the Shuttle, but that would be another project.Regardless the continued use of a limited lifetime design CMG that is not repairable in space does not make sense unless there is a replacement craft for the Shuttle very soon, as the Shuttle is due to be retired very soon. The ISS can continue on Russian thrusters/jets but this will destroy the majority of the microgravity experiments that were intended for the International Space Station. It will also increase the number of potential resupply missions needed to keep the ISS fueled. There might be a possibility, if talk is begun, of a quantity of smaller gyros being brought up by ESA and Russian craft and perhaps other nations could also be brought onboard in this effort. Smaller rockets could bring the smaller gyros up , but they would all need to be synchronized by computer to operate as one to help stabilize/orient/and maintain attitude of the station. As long as control is maintained by Gyro- it doesn't matter how many, but it needs to be enough to maintain attitude/orientation of the mass of the ISS, then the Microgravity experiments can continue. Microgravity experimentation is vital in a large amount of pure science, manufacturing techniques, medications, well the list goes on and on and is a subject all it's own, but was to be a vital part of the advancement expected by humanity from this International Space Station. This goes beyond borders, it really is for all.If the US is unable to come up with all the solutions, then the world community must step forward and begin to offer answers and make offers to help in this situation. We are falling short, but to proceed in a wreckless manner will not solve issues that are not going away without everybody laying their cards on the table. I will now include some links to data concerning the situation which all can review at their leisure, but time is short , time to speak up is
        very rapidly approaching.

         Preliminary Document of CMG as of 1997;
        http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=164698&id=2&qs=Ntt%3Dcmg%252Biss%252Battitude%26Ntk%3Dall%26Ntx%3Dmode%2520matchall%26N%3D0%26Ns%3DPublicationYear%257c1
        CMG PDF Document 1997 showing initial concept 24pg.;
        http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19970017408_1997026074.pdf
        CMG Manufactured by L3 Communications (NJ) Primary integrator; Boeing;
        http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/returntoflight/sts-114/cmg.html
        CMG Image;
        http://sts-114.jaxa.jp/mission/contents/eva/images/083-cmg.jpg
        Laptops as interface and troubleshooter and gyro setup details;
        http://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/news/releases/2001/01_51AR.html
         Video page on CMG replacement;
        http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/video/shuttle/sts-114/html/fd0.html

         News storyof first CMG replacement,BBC;
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4734341.stm
         Illustration of installation of new CMG;
        http://spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts114/041219preview/041219cmgreplace.jpg
         
        Here is a small demonstration model of a CMG that gives a simple example of the vital elements of a CMG and helps to get your mind around the concept, {also a review of the science Gyro post and the demonstration by the astronaut helps for those unfamiliar with gyros} Demonstration
         Model CMG;

        http://www.ecpsystems.com/controls_ctrlgyro.htm

         Mystery [B-)]
         
        --------------------------------
         --- In gravitationalpropulsionstevenson@yahoogroups.com,
         "mysterygravity" mysterystevenson1@ wrote: 
         
        I have been following this problem with the Gyros on the International Space Station for the last few weeks and events have been getting worse.
         At first they played down the problem and went through a series of tests, and while the Gyro in the most trouble is now down, they still will not define it as defunct.

        http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=22293
         
        Everytime a story is published a different number of minimum gyros is mentioned. Politics do not change PHYSICS ! The Gyros are used to maintain stability and most important attitude, so that the solar panels can track the sun for energy. Without the Gyros the station would use massive amounts of propellant to maintain attitude, and the station would also undergo stresses that it is not designed to maintain for extended periods of time.
         
        The reason this is becoming critical is because the last Shuttle just added a large amount of Mass to the station in the form of solar panels and supplies. The gyroscopic forces needed to maintain attitude is proportional to the ammount of Mass that needs to be controlled or maintained as to attitude. With more mass and fewer gyros the stress put on the remaining gyros increases proportionately. As many will remember we have already had to replace with some difficulty one of these massive Gyros, and the continued failure of these devices, is indicative of a likely design flaw. Bringing more construction (mass) to the station before the gyro problem is addressed is inviting disaster. Here is a link to what is available to the public.

        http://www.spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts116/061010cmg/
         
        There is a very likely chance that the failure rate will begin to increase on these Gyro designs. Emergency redundancy Gyros are vital. Too bad these Gyros were not made to be repaired in space, bearings go out-duh, these devices are not even needed to be designed by rocket scientists, although they do need to take into account the environment that the gyros will be used in and the torque and forces that will be experienced. If they have these panels deployed while the mass of the Shuttle is connected to the station and shut down all but one gyro, as it appears may be needed now if they follow through with the construction schedule, then the thrusters may be needed to maintain orientation, but if that is too much force for the assembly to take then it could collapse right onto the Shuttle, and if that happens, more than a piece of foam will be effected. I don't want to say what could happen!
         We are talking astronauts on the Shuttle and the Station, and the Shuttle and the Station themselves.
         
        TIME TO THINK ...
         
        MYSTERY [B-)]

      • mysterygravity
        In the upcoming Shuttle flight there will be the delivery of one of the massive CMGs (Gyroscope) to replace the failed one that has been a concern for quite
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 29, 2007
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                 In the upcoming Shuttle flight there will be the delivery of one of the massive CMGs (Gyroscope) to replace the failed one that has been a concern for quite some time. Of course it will be replaced by a rebuilt gyro that had already failed once prior in the space station, as have others. This is very likely to be the last Gyro that the Shuttles will be able to deliver to the ISS before the Shuttle program shuts down in a few more years.

                As the station grows, it's mass will apply more and more stress on the Gyros, and given the failure rate, there could very well come a crunch time for Gyros onboard the Station. They do have evacuation plans and so we can hope for safety to have been addressed for the International Astronauts and Cosmonauts. Lets all hope that the Shuttle delivers safely the replacement Gyro and the older ones last longer than some of their prior units. There have been some good results from the station and data will be studied from ISS research for decades, but the longer it lasts the more knowledge we will get for the money spent.

              One thing we have learned is that one of the more simpler parts of systems (Gyros) need greater consideration in future space designs. This could have been avoided as a problem altogether if proper designs had been approved, and cost cutting at the start has ended up costing us more by these expensive repair and replacement flights, than if we had spent what was needed at the start.Hindsight...

          News Link;

          http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=24746

           

          Mystery   B-)

        • Jim S
          This upcoming mission of the Shuttle to the ISS will at last address many of the issues that have been ongoing and of major concern to me. For many years I
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 15, 2009
          • 0 Attachment

                This upcoming mission of the Shuttle to the ISS will at last address many of the issues that have been ongoing and of major concern to me. For many years I have had fears that the poor design of the CMGs (Gyroscopes) on board the ISS could end up in disaster. Well this launch is not only going to bring up a spare CMG, it's taking up two spares! I am very happy that NASA has decided to do this.They have also adopted some of my suggestions about making some smaller gyros eventually that could be lifted by smaller craft.

                Will be a shame to lose the Shuttles when they are retired, because they were unique in their ability to lift so much mass into orbit. Nothing else is big enough to lift one of those massive gyros, let alone 2 of them. So we will lose an important space exploration tool when the Shuttles are gone. Here is a link to one story about this mission, and a few quotes from the link for your review;

            Atlantis mission to fortify future of the space station
            http://www.spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts129/091114preview/

            "With just six missions left on NASA's shuttle manifest between now and the end of fiscal 2010, Atlantis' mission is one of two devoted primarily to delivering critical spare parts and equipment - orbital replacement units, or ORUs - that are too large to be delivered by European, Russian or Japanese cargo ships.

            Mounted on pallets in Atlantis' payload bay are two spare control moment gyroscopes, used to control the station's orientation in space; a high pressure oxygen tank for the station's airlock; and a spare pump module, nitrogen tank and an ammonia reservoir for the lab's cooling system.

            The pallets also carry a replacement robot arm latching end effector, or mechanical hand; a spare power cable spool used by the arm's mobile transporter; a solar array battery charge-discharge unit; and a device used to prevent potentially dangerous electrical arcs between the station and the electrically charged extreme upper atmosphere."

            Mystery B-)

            _______________

            --- In gravitationalpropulsionstevenson@yahoogroups.com, "mysterygravity" <mysterystevenson1@...> wrote:
             
            Again the CMG's are becoming an issue on the ISS. Again I feel it
             is possible to supply supplimental gyroscopic systems before it is too late, if that is within our political will. The issues are being blamed
            on computer glitches and on and on, but stresses on the entire station
            are being "amassed". Here is a current link as to breaking news,but
            think there will be more;
             
            http://www.spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts117/070612cmgs/
             http://www.spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts117/070612cmgs/
             
            There is more about recent testing of the one down CMG and yet sources
            are continuously mentioning the 4 Gyro system as though all
            function...See near the end of this BBC story;
             
            http://bbsnews.net/article.php/2007051521254433
             http://bbsnews.net/article.php/2007051521254433
             
            Here are some older links to our posts on similar subjects ;
             
            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/gravitationalpropulsionstevenson/message/45
            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/gravitationalpropulsionstevenson/message/45

             
            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/gravitationalpropulsionstevenson/message/86
            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/gravitationalpropulsionstevenson/message/86
             
            Please note that there is a copy of one of my communications to NASA
             concerning this issue from last year in our private files area in the
             "Time Capsule" in the group. Also in the public links area of the group is a link to a free video link with it's own player that has as one of
             it's channels a NASA link for live viewing of what is happening.There
             are continuing issues almost hourly and so am holding back on
             indications that are now unfolding...
             
            Note ; unrelated that a sister group to this group has been
             started and soon will release invitations to join in the expansion.
             
            Mystery [B-)]
             ____________________________

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