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Re: POI/Waypoint Phone Number Attribute

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  • Hannu Lohi
    Hello We are interested of phone numbers as well. We planned to put it in extencions, if no better idea. www.tracker.fi let s see, where Nokia puts them.
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 1, 2006
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      Hello

      We are interested of phone numbers as well. We planned to put it in
      extencions, if no better idea.

      www.tracker.fi

      let's see, where Nokia puts them. Hopefully they use GPX as well.

      --- In gpsxml@yahoogroups.com, Dan Foster <egroups@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello,
      >
      > Thursday, November 30, 2006, 11:06:22 AM, Doug wrote:
      >
      > > Is this still the place for talking about GPX or is this now just
      a
      > > place for me to get stock trading tips?
      > >
      > > In the Map Authors group, a few of us are working on Tour Guides
      in
      > > Garmin GPI format. So far as I know, we can't assign a phone
      number
      > > to a point of interst. Given that ther are many more
      appilications
      > > using GPX than GPI format, i thought I would bring this up to
      members
      > > of this group and suggest that when the GPX schema is revised it
      > > incude phone number attribute for waypoints.
      > > Do other agree?
      >
      > Doug, here's how this group works now:
      >
      > 1. You ask for something to be added to the GPX schema.
      > 2. If you're lucky, a few people will chime in with "yeah, I want
      > that, too".
      > 3. Someone might mention that phone numbers aren't generally
      > considered to be an attribute of GPS data, and suggest that you
      > develop your own schema to hold them.
      > 4. No further action will be taken, by you or anyone else.
      >
      > From what I've observed, people are generally content with GPX 1.0
      and
      > GPX 1.1, and have absolutely no interest in contributing ideas to a
      > GPX 1.2. If you're really serious about putting phone numbers in
      GPX
      > files, I'd suggest you do the following:
      >
      > Find a similar sub-schema and modify it to suit your needs.
      > Prove it works by incorporating it into your software or Web
      service.
      > Prove it validates.
      > Announce its existance here.
      > Wait a week to see if anyone offers suggestions.
      > Announce its availability on a "take it or leave it" basis.
      >
      > --
      > Dan Foster
      >
    • Mark Baker
      Extensions seem a great place for it, and you don t have to worry about coordinating with the community. On the other hand, the X in XML means extensible ,
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 1, 2006
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        Extensions seem a great place for it, and you don't have to worry
        about coordinating with the community.

        On the other hand, the "X" in XML means "extensible", so it seems odd
        that extensions are limited to one GPX-specific extension stanza
        rather than being allowed anywhere. I suppose that's because GPX is
        defined by schema, and most schema languages are intended to restrict
        extensibility rather than support it (which is why I never use them).
        Oh well, at least GPX provides a way forward.

        BTW, I'd also encourage using an http URI for your namespace, and
        putting a descriptive HTML document behind that URI so that people who
        find a GPX document using your extension will be able to get more info
        about it.

        Mark.

        On 12/1/06, Hannu Lohi <hannu.lohi@...> wrote:
        > Hello
        >
        > We are interested of phone numbers as well. We planned to put it in
        > extencions, if no better idea.
        >
        > www.tracker.fi
        >
        > let's see, where Nokia puts them. Hopefully they use GPX as well.
        >
        > --- In gpsxml@yahoogroups.com, Dan Foster <egroups@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello,
        > >
        > > Thursday, November 30, 2006, 11:06:22 AM, Doug wrote:
        > >
        > > > Is this still the place for talking about GPX or is this now just
        > a
        > > > place for me to get stock trading tips?
        > > >
        > > > In the Map Authors group, a few of us are working on Tour Guides
        > in
        > > > Garmin GPI format. So far as I know, we can't assign a phone
        > number
        > > > to a point of interst. Given that ther are many more
        > appilications
        > > > using GPX than GPI format, i thought I would bring this up to
        > members
        > > > of this group and suggest that when the GPX schema is revised it
        > > > incude phone number attribute for waypoints.
        > > > Do other agree?
        > >
        > > Doug, here's how this group works now:
        > >
        > > 1. You ask for something to be added to the GPX schema.
        > > 2. If you're lucky, a few people will chime in with "yeah, I want
        > > that, too".
        > > 3. Someone might mention that phone numbers aren't generally
        > > considered to be an attribute of GPS data, and suggest that you
        > > develop your own schema to hold them.
        > > 4. No further action will be taken, by you or anyone else.
        > >
        > > From what I've observed, people are generally content with GPX 1.0
        > and
        > > GPX 1.1, and have absolutely no interest in contributing ideas to a
        > > GPX 1.2. If you're really serious about putting phone numbers in
        > GPX
        > > files, I'd suggest you do the following:
        > >
        > > Find a similar sub-schema and modify it to suit your needs.
        > > Prove it works by incorporating it into your software or Web
        > service.
        > > Prove it validates.
        > > Announce its existance here.
        > > Wait a week to see if anyone offers suggestions.
        > > Announce its availability on a "take it or leave it" basis.
        > >
        > > --
        > > Dan Foster
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • dananderson2
        ... Yes, I think a common extension for contact information would be a good addition. There should also be fields for email address, web address, street
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
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          --- In gpsxml@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Adomatis" <gps_maps@...> wrote:
          >
          > Is this still the place for talking about GPX or is this now just a
          > place for me to get stock trading tips?
          >
          > In the Map Authors group, a few of us are working on Tour Guides in
          > Garmin GPI format. So far as I know, we can't assign a phone number
          > to a point of interst. Given that ther are many more appilications
          > using GPX than GPI format, i thought I would bring this up to members
          > of this group and suggest that when the GPX schema is revised it
          > incude phone number attribute for waypoints.
          > Do other agree?
          > - Doug
          > www.TravelByGPS.com

          Yes, I think a common extension for contact information would be a
          good addition. There should also be fields for email address, web
          address, street address, etc. (Note that Garmin has a PhoneNumber
          extension already).

          I wish Dan F. (TopoGrafix) would add reasonably common requests to an
          extension or the basic schema even if he doesn't plan on adding
          support for it to ExpertGPS. I thought GPX was created to help solve
          the proliferation of file formats for GPS information. Are we headed
          for a hundred different GPX extensions? Garmin has extensions for
          PhoneNumber, Address, Categories, DisplayMode, Depth, Temperature, and
          Proximity. Groundspeak has extensions for geocaching - has Geobuddy
          added more geocaching extensions that are similar to Groundspeak's?

          I hope the authors of GPSBabel are ready to add a bunch of conversions
          from one type of GPX file to another.
        • Dan Foster
          Hello, ... There seems to be a common mis-understanding about how this mailing list (and GPX itself) works. Nobody is in charge. Decisions are made by
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
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            Hello,

            Sunday, December 3, 2006, 11:35:44 AM, dananderson2 wrote:

            > I wish Dan F. (TopoGrafix) would add reasonably common requests to an
            > extension or the basic schema even if he doesn't plan on adding
            > support for it to ExpertGPS.

            There seems to be a common mis-understanding about how this mailing
            list (and GPX itself) works. Nobody is in charge. Decisions are
            made by consensus. If you want something done, step up to the plate
            and make a case for it, and present a finished, working schema.

            The only thing that distinguishes me from anyone else in this group is
            that:
            1. I offered to host the schema on topografix.com
            2. I offered to write some documentation for the 1.0 and 1.1 schemas.

            I'd be more than happy to sever those ties. Let's register
            gpxschemas.org or something - I'll pitch in $20 toward hosting fees.


            --
            Dan Foster
          • Dave Patton
            ... Before creating a new domain, I d suggest looking into whether GPX-related activities might be able to be accommodated under the OSGeo umbrella:
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
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              Dan Foster wrote:
              > Hello,
              >
              > Sunday, December 3, 2006, 11:35:44 AM, dananderson2 wrote:
              >
              >> I wish Dan F. (TopoGrafix) would add reasonably common requests to an
              >> extension or the basic schema even if he doesn't plan on adding
              >> support for it to ExpertGPS.
              >
              > There seems to be a common mis-understanding about how this mailing
              > list (and GPX itself) works. Nobody is in charge. Decisions are
              > made by consensus. If you want something done, step up to the plate
              > and make a case for it, and present a finished, working schema.
              >
              > The only thing that distinguishes me from anyone else in this group is
              > that:
              > 1. I offered to host the schema on topografix.com
              > 2. I offered to write some documentation for the 1.0 and 1.1 schemas.
              >
              > I'd be more than happy to sever those ties. Let's register
              > gpxschemas.org or something - I'll pitch in $20 toward hosting fees.

              Before creating a new domain, I'd suggest looking into
              whether GPX-related activities might be able to be
              accommodated under the OSGeo umbrella:
              https://www.osgeo.org/

              While the incubation process is for software packages,
              perhaps GPX might fall within the mandate of one of
              the existing committees(e.g. Public Geodata?).

              Maybe someone wants to ask on the #osgeo IRC channel
              on irc.freenode.net?

              --
              Dave Patton

              Canadian Coordinator, Degree Confluence Project
              http://www.confluence.org/

              Personal website - Maps, GPS, etc.
              http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/
            • Dan Anderson
              ... I think we have a process problem. How many people need to be interested in a particular addition before it will be added? Who (committee members) decides
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 4, 2006
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                --- In gpsxml@yahoogroups.com, Dan Foster <egroups@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello,
                >
                > Sunday, December 3, 2006, 11:35:44 AM, dananderson2 wrote:
                >
                > > I wish Dan F. (TopoGrafix) would add reasonably common requests to an
                > > extension or the basic schema even if he doesn't plan on adding
                > > support for it to ExpertGPS.
                >
                > There seems to be a common mis-understanding about how this mailing
                > list (and GPX itself) works. Nobody is in charge. Decisions are
                > made by consensus. If you want something done, step up to the plate
                > and make a case for it, and present a finished, working schema.
                >
                > The only thing that distinguishes me from anyone else in this group is
                > that:
                > 1. I offered to host the schema on topografix.com
                > 2. I offered to write some documentation for the 1.0 and 1.1 schemas.
                >
                > I'd be more than happy to sever those ties. Let's register
                > gpxschemas.org or something - I'll pitch in $20 toward hosting fees.
                >
                I think we have a process problem. How many people need to be
                interested in a particular addition before it will be added? Who
                (committee members) decides whether a particular addition makes sense
                to GPX or to an extension? Who makes the changes? The person(s)
                asking for a new addition may not know enough to write the schema.

                Garmin might have decided to create their extension because it was
                easier than trying to get the fields added to GPX. If that's the case,
                it's a problem because it encourages multiple file formats.

                I believe there's a tendency for people to only focus on what they are
                currently interested in so getting a consensus is tough even if it's a
                great idea.

                What's it going to take to get Paul Tomblin's magnetic declination
                problem fixed?

                I have no objection to TopoGrafix hosting the schema. The URL's are
                all over the place. But maybe a more formal procedure needs to be
                specified so that changes can get done.
              • Robert Lipe
                ... If Garmin has an extension that solves this problem, is there an objection to using it? Their competitors may (or may not) find it distasteful, but that
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 4, 2006
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                  > Yes, I think a common extension for contact information would be a
                  > good addition. There should also be fields for email address, web
                  > address, street address, etc. (Note that Garmin has a PhoneNumber
                  > extension already).

                  If Garmin has an extension that solves this problem, is there an
                  objection to using it? Their competitors may (or may not) find it
                  distasteful, but that seems to be sort of the point of open standards.

                  > support for it to ExpertGPS. I thought GPX was created to help solve
                  > the proliferation of file formats for GPS information. Are we headed
                  > for a hundred different GPX extensions? Garmin has extensions for
                  > PhoneNumber, Address, Categories, DisplayMode, Depth, Temperature, and
                  > Proximity. Groundspeak has extensions for geocaching - has Geobuddy
                  > added more geocaching extensions that are similar to Groundspeak's?

                  I think the core of GPX does sufficiently cover the core GPS information
                  that's pretty much common across the board. It has a large (and
                  growing!) acceptance and seems to solve a lot of problems for a lot of
                  people. Different folks have extended it in different ways. Garmin has
                  hardware that supports categories, so it make sense for them to extend
                  GPX in that way. Groundspeak needs to include a hint for geocaches, so
                  it makes sense for them to extend GPX in that way.

                  > I hope the authors of GPSBabel are ready to add a bunch of conversions
                  > from one type of GPX file to another.

                  I'd be delighted for GPSBabel to never be in the business of converting
                  arbitrary extensions into each other and instead leave that to XSLT and
                  other more XML-specific tools.

                  As the opening line of http://www.gpsbabel.org says, "GPSBabel converts
                  waypoints, tracks, and routes from one format to another" - it's not a
                  general purpose XML translator. I don't _want_ to convert Geocaches into
                  Navicaches and so on.

                  RJL
                • Robert Lipe
                  ... Dan does raise an interesting point. In this crowd we seem to have plenty of Geolocational-ish expertise that knows what they d like to see in a file, but
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 4, 2006
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                    > made by consensus. If you want something done, step up to the plate
                    > and make a case for it, and present a finished, working schema.

                    Dan does raise an interesting point. In this crowd we seem to have
                    plenty of Geolocational-ish expertise that knows what they'd like to see
                    in a file, but we don't have a proportional amount of XML expertise to
                    grind out the well crafted schemas.

                    I know I'm definitely in that camp.

                    > I'd be more than happy to sever those ties. Let's register
                    > gpxschemas.org or something - I'll pitch in $20 toward hosting fees.

                    I have facilities to host it and can distribute access to others. That's
                    the easy part of this problem. Finding more hands (brains) to share in
                    the work is the harder piece.

                    RJL
                  • Kerry Raymond
                    I think we get getting this whole extension idea back-to-front and getting into some bad modelling. Take hints for geocaching as an example. Caches have
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 4, 2006
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                      I think we get getting this whole extension idea back-to-front and getting into some bad modelling.

                      Take hints for geocaching as an example. Caches have locations; caches have hints; locations don't have hints. That is, hints are not a property of locations generally. So what should be happening is that there needs to be an XML schema for geocaches of which one component is a location represented in (say) GPX and another component is the hint.

                      This is same with phone numbers. People and buildings etc have phone numbers and people and buildings have locations. But it does not follow that locations have phone numbers. Make XML schemas for people etc that contain both a location and a phone number. Don't add phone numbers to locations.

                      Unfortunately it is very tempting to say "I need to exchange information about Foo and Foo has a location and a Bar so lets incorporate Bar into GPX" but clearly everyone from geocachers to real estate agents to miners to farmers can come along and say that because most things have a location. Do we propose to extend GPX to accommodate information on house prices, vegetation cover, mining rights and a partridge in a pear tree?

                      It makes sense to extend GPX for properties of locations, but it does not make sense to extend GPX for other properties of things that have locations.

                      What about street address? If I am standing at 123 Main Street, Smalltown when I make my waypoint, should I be allowed to extend GPX to accommodate address information? Isn't that location information? Now we get into the more subtle issues of whether GPX is about locations or whether GPX is about GPS waypoints, tracks, and routes. Just to illustrate the difference, I create a waypoint at a particular time when I press the button on my GPS so time is an inherent property of a waypoint, but time is not a property of a location in general (as locations persist throughout time). Garmin have apparently extended their schema for temperature. Certainly at the moment I create a waypoint, there is an ambient temperature for that time and place and the GPS unit might be able to record that. So temperature is a property of a waypoint, but not a property of a location (clearly temperature can vary at a given location over time). So temperature might arguably be an extension of GPX if GPX is about GPS waypoints etc and not about locations. But then what about street addresses and cadastral mapping more generally? Global positioning gives us spatial coordinates, which can be translated into street addresses etc by the use of maps (and some GPS units can do this), but is GPX concerned with location in the broader sense or raw GPS readings?

                      But now we go back to the earlier discussion of geocaching and phone numbers. I talked about creating a schema for geocaching in which a location might be represented as GPX. Do we really think the time or the temperature at the point I pressed the button to make a waypoint for the location of the cache is relevant to geocaching? No, not really. So unless the role of GPX is to represent location information as opposed to waypoints, then maybe it should not be used as a component of a geocache at all.

                      If you are involved in modelling information professionally (and I am), you soon learn that the more you try to model something (i.e. build some kind of schema to represent it), the more subtle distinctions like the difference between a location and a waypoint start to matter and you have to understand the relationship between these things. So in terms of this discussion ...

                      Many things (e.g. houses, geocaches) have locations and other properties. Locations can be spatial coordinates (e.g. latitude, longitude) and/or cadastral information (e.g. street address, land title data). Spatial coordinates are part of a GPS reading, which may contain other information (e.g. time, temperature). Which thing do we want GPX to represent? Figure that out first!

                      An interesting aside. Do geocaches have locations or spatial coordinates? That is, is a street address acceptable for geocaching?

                      Kerry




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Doug Adomatis
                      ... does not make sense to extend GPX for other properties of things that have locations. In my mind there is a difference between Waypoints and Points of
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 5, 2006
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                        --- Kerry Raymond wrote:
                        > It makes sense to extend GPX for properties of locations, but it
                        does not make sense to extend GPX for other properties of things that
                        have locations.

                        In my mind there is a difference between Waypoints and Points of
                        Interest; I think of waypoints more in context with navigation and POI
                        more in context with travel and tours. Basic location information is
                        all that is necessary for waypoints and waypoint comment and
                        description fields are nice. POIs, for example on a guided tours, may
                        require more attributes to fully describe.

                        - Doug
                        www.TravelByGPS.com
                      • Doug Adomatis
                        ... I m not one to implement suggested changes in schema, I m just a voice in the crowd that s saying if there going to be change, then how about...
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 5, 2006
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                          --- Robert Lipe wrote:
                          > In this crowd we seem to have
                          > plenty of Geolocational-ish expertise that knows what they'd like to see
                          > in a file, but we don't have a proportional amount of XML expertise to
                          > grind out the well crafted schemas.

                          I'm not one to implement suggested changes in schema, I'm just a voice
                          in the crowd that's saying if there going to be change, then how about...
                        • guido_p_schmidt
                          found where garmin is letting it in the gpx file. waypoint test adres Waypoint −
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 5, 2006
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                            found where garmin is letting it in the gpx file.

                            <wpt lat="52.317361" lon="6.532597">
                            <name>waypoint test</name>
                            <cmt>adres</cmt>
                            <sym>Waypoint</sym>

                            <extensions>

                            <gpxx:WaypointExtension>
                            <gpxx:PhoneNumber>+31600000000</gpxx:PhoneNumber>
                            </gpxx:WaypointExtension>
                            </extensions>
                            </wpt>

                            I will test it in the poiloader as well.

                            Guido (starter of the topic in map authors)

                            --- In gpsxml@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Adomatis" <gps_maps@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- Robert Lipe wrote:
                            > > In this crowd we seem to have
                            > > plenty of Geolocational-ish expertise that knows what they'd like
                            to see
                            > > in a file, but we don't have a proportional amount of XML expertise
                            to
                            > > grind out the well crafted schemas.
                            >
                            > I'm not one to implement suggested changes in schema, I'm just a voice
                            > in the crowd that's saying if there going to be change, then how
                            about...
                            >
                          • Dan Foster
                            Hello, ... Be very careful about relying on Garmin s private GPX extensions. I ve been burned once already - I implemented temperature and depth in ExpertGPS
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 5, 2006
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                              Hello,

                              Tuesday, December 5, 2006, 7:43:57 AM, guido_p_schmidt wrote:

                              > found where garmin is letting it in the gpx file.
                              >
                              > <wpt lat="52.317361" lon="6.532597">
                              > <name>waypoint test</name>
                              > <cmt>adres</cmt>
                              > <sym>Waypoint</sym>
                              > −
                              > <extensions>
                              > −
                              > <gpxx:WaypointExtension>
                              > <gpxx:PhoneNumber>+31600000000</gpxx:PhoneNumber>
                              > </gpxx:WaypointExtension>
                              > </extensions>
                              > </wpt>
                              >
                              > I will test it in the poiloader as well.

                              Be very careful about relying on Garmin's private GPX extensions.
                              I've been burned once already - I implemented temperature and depth
                              in ExpertGPS when MapSource first added it to their GPX files. A few
                              months later my GPX files stopped validating, and I learned that
                              Garmin had come out with a new version of their private schema, and
                              deleted the old schema from their Web site! By doing so, they've
                              retroactively broken a whole bunch of GPX files, including anything
                              saved from their older version of MapSource.

                              --
                              Dan Foster
                            • Dan Anderson
                              ... [snip] ... We have GPX_Overlay and Style. Perhaps we can add a GPX_POI extension schema that has fields to support points-of-interest. I m sure lots of
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                --- In gpsxml@yahoogroups.com, Dan Foster <egroups@...> wrote:
                                [snip]
                                > Be very careful about relying on Garmin's private GPX extensions.
                                > I've been burned once already - I implemented temperature and depth
                                > in ExpertGPS when MapSource first added it to their GPX files. A few
                                > months later my GPX files stopped validating, and I learned that
                                > Garmin had come out with a new version of their private schema, and
                                > deleted the old schema from their Web site! By doing so, they've
                                > retroactively broken a whole bunch of GPX files, including anything
                                > saved from their older version of MapSource.

                                We have GPX_Overlay and Style. Perhaps we can add a GPX_POI extension
                                schema that has fields to support points-of-interest. I'm sure lots
                                of map authors would appreciate something like that. The question is
                                will any programs/products support it.
                              • guido_p_schmidt
                                this message we did become from garmin: Q.1: How is it possible to use the GPX format and POI Loader to create Custom POI files that allow direct dialling of
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 6, 2006
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                                  this message we did become from garmin:

                                  "
                                  Q.1: How is it possible to use the GPX format and POI Loader to create
                                  Custom POI files that allow direct dialling of phone numbers? What
                                  about photo attachments?

                                  A.1: It is possible to add the telephone number as part of the text, in
                                  the "Comment" field, as in the HELP file of the POI loader, but it is
                                  not possible to link the phone number for direct dial via BlueTooth.
                                  Custom POI files are different from the Travel Guide (Falk Marco Polo
                                  or Fodors) Rich POIs and at the moment the phone field is not linkable
                                  via POI Loader. As for the photo, the POI Loader HELP file says:

                                  "Adding Pictures to TourGuide Points

                                  You can add .jpg images to your TourGuide points. To do so, include the
                                  path to the .jpg image in the ID3 data of your TourGuide .mp3 file.
                                  Search the internet for more information on ID3 tags for .mp3 files."

                                  The following link is to a page on there site that lists many programs
                                  that will work with ID3 tags. http://www.id3.org/implement.html"

                                  I did find out Zortam is working fine for the ID3 tags. Phone numbers
                                  won't work then.


                                  --- In gpsxml@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Adomatis" <gps_maps@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- Kerry Raymond wrote:
                                  > > It makes sense to extend GPX for properties of locations, but it
                                  > does not make sense to extend GPX for other properties of things that
                                  > have locations.
                                  >
                                  > In my mind there is a difference between Waypoints and Points of
                                  > Interest; I think of waypoints more in context with navigation and POI
                                  > more in context with travel and tours. Basic location information is
                                  > all that is necessary for waypoints and waypoint comment and
                                  > description fields are nice. POIs, for example on a guided tours, may
                                  > require more attributes to fully describe.
                                  >
                                  > - Doug
                                  > www.TravelByGPS.com
                                  >
                                • Dan Anderson
                                  ... [snip] ... Okay so it won t be GPSBabel. Maybe it ll be POIBabel (containing an XSLT processor or calling one already on the system). Someone has to write
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Dec 6, 2006
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                                    --- In gpsxml@yahoogroups.com, Robert Lipe <robertlipe@...> wrote:
                                    [snip]
                                    > > I hope the authors of GPSBabel are ready to add a bunch of conversions
                                    > > from one type of GPX file to another.
                                    >
                                    > I'd be delighted for GPSBabel to never be in the business of converting
                                    > arbitrary extensions into each other and instead leave that to XSLT and
                                    > other more XML-specific tools.
                                    >
                                    > As the opening line of http://www.gpsbabel.org says, "GPSBabel converts
                                    > waypoints, tracks, and routes from one format to another" - it's not a
                                    > general purpose XML translator. I don't _want_ to convert Geocaches into
                                    > Navicaches and so on.

                                    Okay so it won't be GPSBabel. Maybe it'll be POIBabel (containing an
                                    XSLT processor or calling one already on the system). Someone has to
                                    write XSLT documents to do the conversions. Some conversions won't be
                                    trivial. I'm just hoping to keep the number of different, similar
                                    formats to a minimum.
                                  • Doug Adomatis
                                    ... Point taken Dan; the silence here is loud. I m not surprised that Garmin is not speaking up because they are pushing format - GPI - for which I understand
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Dec 9, 2006
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                                      --- "Dan Anderson" wrote:
                                      > We have GPX_Overlay and Style. Perhaps we can add a GPX_POI extension
                                      > schema that has fields to support points-of-interest. I'm sure lots
                                      > of map authors would appreciate something like that. The question is
                                      > will any programs/products support it.
                                      >

                                      Point taken Dan; the silence here is loud.

                                      I'm not surprised that Garmin is not speaking up because they are
                                      pushing format - GPI - for which I understand they are developing an
                                      authoring tool which they would like to sell licenses for. It is my
                                      belief that a proprietary format for expensive dashtop devices will
                                      not flourish.

                                      What surprises me is the silence of other software developers like
                                      GPSS, GARtrip, GPSutility, et al.

                                      - Doug
                                      www.TravelByGPS.com
                                    • guido_p_schmidt
                                      a step further in the tourguide, with the new beta software it is possible to use the phone when active. Even when it loaded as tourguide. see:
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Dec 12, 2006
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                                        a step further in the tourguide,

                                        with the new beta software it is possible to use the phone when
                                        active. Even when it loaded as tourguide. see:
                                        http://static.flickr.com/128/320428424_d7716a2d9d_o.jpg

                                        In this beta the size of the text fields are limeted. I have asked
                                        garmin to fix this problem.

                                        guido


                                        --- In gpsxml@yahoogroups.com, "guido_p_schmidt" <guido@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > this message we did become from garmin:
                                        >
                                        > "
                                        > Q.1: How is it possible to use the GPX format and POI Loader to
                                        create
                                        > Custom POI files that allow direct dialling of phone numbers? What
                                        > about photo attachments?
                                        >
                                        > A.1: It is possible to add the telephone number as part of the
                                        text, in
                                        > the "Comment" field, as in the HELP file of the POI loader, but it
                                        is
                                        > not possible to link the phone number for direct dial via
                                        BlueTooth.
                                        > Custom POI files are different from the Travel Guide (Falk Marco
                                        Polo
                                        > or Fodors) Rich POIs and at the moment the phone field is not
                                        linkable
                                        > via POI Loader. As for the photo, the POI Loader HELP file says:
                                        >
                                        > "Adding Pictures to TourGuide Points
                                        >
                                        > You can add .jpg images to your TourGuide points. To do so, include
                                        the
                                        > path to the .jpg image in the ID3 data of your TourGuide .mp3 file.
                                        > Search the internet for more information on ID3 tags for .mp3
                                        files."
                                        >
                                        > The following link is to a page on there site that lists many
                                        programs
                                        > that will work with ID3 tags. http://www.id3.org/implement.html"
                                        >
                                        > I did find out Zortam is working fine for the ID3 tags. Phone
                                        numbers
                                        > won't work then.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In gpsxml@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Adomatis" <gps_maps@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > --- Kerry Raymond wrote:
                                        > > > It makes sense to extend GPX for properties of locations, but it
                                        > > does not make sense to extend GPX for other properties of things
                                        that
                                        > > have locations.
                                        > >
                                        > > In my mind there is a difference between Waypoints and Points of
                                        > > Interest; I think of waypoints more in context with navigation
                                        and POI
                                        > > more in context with travel and tours. Basic location
                                        information is
                                        > > all that is necessary for waypoints and waypoint comment and
                                        > > description fields are nice. POIs, for example on a guided
                                        tours, may
                                        > > require more attributes to fully describe.
                                        > >
                                        > > - Doug
                                        > > www.TravelByGPS.com
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • simonslavin
                                        ... The phone number field doesn t need tourguide to work. You can just use the phone number element in a .gpx field:
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Dec 31, 2006
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                                          --- In gpsxml@yahoogroups.com, "guido_p_schmidt" <guido@...> wrote:

                                          > a step further in the tourguide,
                                          >
                                          > with the new beta software it is possible to use the phone when
                                          > active. Even when it loaded as tourguide. see:
                                          > http://static.flickr.com/128/320428424_d7716a2d9d_o.jpg
                                          >
                                          > In this beta the size of the text fields are limeted. I have asked
                                          > garmin to fix this problem.

                                          The phone number field doesn't need 'tourguide' to work. You can just use the phone
                                          number element in a .gpx field:

                                          <wpt lat ="44.39874" lon ="2.730013">
                                          <name>Eddie's House</name>
                                          <extensions>
                                          <gpxx:WaypointExtension>
                                          <gpxx:PhoneNumber Category="Phone">+44 1245 123456</gpxx:PhoneNumber>
                                          <gpxx:PhoneNumber Category="Phone2">123-4568</gpxx:PhoneNumber>
                                          <gpxx:PhoneNumber Category="Fax">611-1635</gpxx:PhoneNumber>
                                          <gpxx:PhoneNumber Category="Email">bobby@...</
                                          gpxx:PhoneNumber>
                                          </gpxx:WaypointExtension>
                                          </extensions>
                                          </wpt>

                                          If a BlueTooth phone is connected the 'dial' button will appear next to the number in the
                                          'Phone' category. There doesn't seem to be any special feature for numbers in other
                                          categories.
                                        • Dan Foster
                                          Hello, I m going to top-post and quote most of Kerry s message below. I m surprised this message got so little response - it raises some issues that we really
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 17, 2007
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                                            Hello,

                                            I'm going to top-post and quote most of Kerry's message below. I'm
                                            surprised this message got so little response - it raises some issues
                                            that we really should address regarding the way objects are extended
                                            or contained within other objects in GPX.

                                            I'm going to suggest that GPX isn't really about exchanging GPS data.
                                            It may have started out that way, but it's really become a way to
                                            exchange spatial data - points and lines on the Earth. You may have a
                                            Web site full of geocaches with hints and descriptions, and I may have
                                            a database of oil well locations, but we both use GPX as the basis for
                                            our data structures, we can view our data in a program that doesn't
                                            know anything about caching or oil, or send it to a GPS receiver, and
                                            still get reasonable results (labeled points on a map in the right
                                            location).

                                            If instead the data structures were arranged to include snippets of
                                            GPX for the location- or GPS-specific aspects only, there would be no
                                            data interchange possible. Since my program knows nothing of your
                                            <geocache> structure, how can it possibly know there's a <gpx> element
                                            in there it actually would understand?

                                            <geocache schema="geocaching.com/blah...">
                                            <hint>blah...</hint>
                                            <location schema="topografix.com/gpx/1/1" lat="42.123"...>
                                            </geocache>


                                            If we were starting from scratch, I would suggest that the base schema
                                            contain nothing more than the definition of a geographic point
                                            (lat/lon required, elevation and timestamp optional) and line, and
                                            that everything else be built (through extension schemas) on top of that.

                                            - Dan


                                            Monday, December 4, 2006, 3:06:02 PM, Kerry wrote:

                                            > I think we get getting this whole extension idea back-to-front and getting into some bad modelling.
                                            >
                                            > Take hints for geocaching as an example. Caches have locations;
                                            > caches have hints; locations don't have hints. That is, hints are
                                            > not a property of locations generally. So what should be happening
                                            > is that there needs to be an XML schema for geocaches of which one
                                            > component is a location represented in (say) GPX and another component is the hint.
                                            >
                                            > This is same with phone numbers. People and buildings etc have
                                            > phone numbers and people and buildings have locations. But it does
                                            > not follow that locations have phone numbers. Make XML schemas for
                                            > people etc that contain both a location and a phone number. Don't add phone numbers to locations.
                                            >
                                            > Unfortunately it is very tempting to say "I need to exchange
                                            > information about Foo and Foo has a location and a Bar so lets
                                            > incorporate Bar into GPX" but clearly everyone from geocachers to
                                            > real estate agents to miners to farmers can come along and say that
                                            > because most things have a location. Do we propose to extend GPX to
                                            > accommodate information on house prices, vegetation cover, mining
                                            > rights and a partridge in a pear tree?
                                            >
                                            > It makes sense to extend GPX for properties of locations, but it
                                            > does not make sense to extend GPX for other properties of things that have locations.
                                            >
                                            > What about street address? If I am standing at 123 Main Street,
                                            > Smalltown when I make my waypoint, should I be allowed to extend GPX
                                            > to accommodate address information? Isn't that location information?
                                            > Now we get into the more subtle issues of whether GPX is about
                                            > locations or whether GPX is about GPS waypoints, tracks, and routes.
                                            > Just to illustrate the difference, I create a waypoint at a
                                            > particular time when I press the button on my GPS so time is an
                                            > inherent property of a waypoint, but time is not a property of a
                                            > location in general (as locations persist throughout time). Garmin
                                            > have apparently extended their schema for temperature. Certainly at
                                            > the moment I create a waypoint, there is an ambient temperature for
                                            > that time and place and the GPS unit might be able to record that.
                                            > So temperature is a property of a waypoint, but not a property of a
                                            > location (clearly temperature can vary at a given location over
                                            > time). So temperature might arguably be an extension of GPX if GPX
                                            > is about GPS waypoints etc and not about locations. But then what
                                            > about street addresses and cadastral mapping more generally? Global
                                            > positioning gives us spatial coordinates, which can be translated
                                            > into street addresses etc by the use of maps (and some GPS units can
                                            > do this), but is GPX concerned with location in the broader sense or raw GPS readings?
                                            >
                                            > But now we go back to the earlier discussion of geocaching and
                                            > phone numbers. I talked about creating a schema for geocaching in
                                            > which a location might be represented as GPX. Do we really think the
                                            > time or the temperature at the point I pressed the button to make a
                                            > waypoint for the location of the cache is relevant to geocaching?
                                            > No, not really. So unless the role of GPX is to represent location
                                            > information as opposed to waypoints, then maybe it should not be
                                            > used as a component of a geocache at all.
                                            >
                                            > If you are involved in modelling information professionally (and I
                                            > am), you soon learn that the more you try to model something (i.e.
                                            > build some kind of schema to represent it), the more subtle
                                            > distinctions like the difference between a location and a waypoint
                                            > start to matter and you have to understand the relationship between
                                            > these things. So in terms of this discussion ...
                                            >
                                            > Many things (e.g. houses, geocaches) have locations and other
                                            > properties. Locations can be spatial coordinates (e.g. latitude,
                                            > longitude) and/or cadastral information (e.g. street address, land
                                            > title data). Spatial coordinates are part of a GPS reading, which
                                            > may contain other information (e.g. time, temperature). Which thing
                                            > do we want GPX to represent? Figure that out first!
                                          • Jeremy Irish
                                            I disagree with the idea that GPX isn t really about exchanging GPS data. What it comes down to is that it is meant to exchange GPS data but since it so widely
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 17, 2007
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                                              I disagree with the idea that GPX isn't really about exchanging GPS data. What it comes down to is that it is meant to exchange GPS data but since it so widely adopted it would be far easier to switch the intent of the schema to some personal (non GPS) project or interest. It should allow the exchange of GPS data and do that best. Leave the extra stuff to the other applications that want it.

                                              GML is a way to exchange spatial data. Yeah, it's complicated so not widely used, much like GPX would be if there was a change of thinking around GPX. So please keep it simple.

                                              This is, of course, a biased opinion. It makes perfect sense to me to have an extension that I handle for Geocaching.com so I can add the necessary changes based on the feature requests from the geocaching community. For that reason I doubt I'd shift to some formal geocache tag created by a committee outside of Groundspeak.

                                              There's also GeoRSS, but it's pretty feature poor. There isn't even a place for altitude!

                                              Jeremy




                                              From: gpsxml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gpsxml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Foster
                                              Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 4:49 PM
                                              To: gpsxml@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re[2]: [gpsxml] Re: POI/Waypoint Phone Number Attribute


                                              Hello,

                                              I'm going to top-post and quote most of Kerry's message below. I'm
                                              surprised this message got so little response - it raises some issues
                                              that we really should address regarding the way objects are extended
                                              or contained within other objects in GPX.

                                              I'm going to suggest that GPX isn't really about exchanging GPS data.
                                              It may have started out that way, but it's really become a way to
                                              exchange spatial data - points and lines on the Earth. You may have a
                                              Web site full of geocaches with hints and descriptions, and I may have
                                              a database of oil well locations, but we both use GPX as the basis for
                                              our data structures, we can view our data in a program that doesn't
                                              know anything about caching or oil, or send it to a GPS receiver, and
                                              still get reasonable results (labeled points on a map in the right
                                              location).

                                              If instead the data structures were arranged to include snippets of
                                              GPX for the location- or GPS-specific aspects only, there would be no
                                              data interchange possible. Since my program knows nothing of your
                                              <geocache> structure, how can it possibly know there's a <gpx> element
                                              in there it actually would understand?

                                              <geocache schema="geocaching.com/blah...">
                                              <hint>blah...</hint>
                                              <location schema="topografix.com/gpx/1/1" lat="42.123"...>
                                              </geocache>

                                              If we were starting from scratch, I would suggest that the base schema
                                              contain nothing more than the definition of a geographic point
                                              (lat/lon required, elevation and timestamp optional) and line, and
                                              that everything else be built (through extension schemas) on top of that.

                                              - Dan

                                              Monday, December 4, 2006, 3:06:02 PM, Kerry wrote:



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Simon Slavin
                                              ... Definitely worth thinking about. ... I think what has been established is that GPX is about three things: 1) Location -- and let s give the location a name
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 17, 2007
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                                                On 18 Jan 2007, at 12:48am, Dan Foster wrote:

                                                > I'm going to top-post and quote most of Kerry's message below. I'm
                                                > surprised this message got so little response - it raises some issues
                                                > that we really should address regarding the way objects are extended
                                                > or contained within other objects in GPX.

                                                Definitely worth thinking about.

                                                > I'm going to suggest that GPX isn't really about exchanging GPS data.

                                                I think what has been established is that GPX is about three things:

                                                1) Location -- and let's give the location a name so we can remember
                                                why we care about it. Routes and tracks because the order of points
                                                is significant and interesting.
                                                2) Things relating to how GPS receivers work.
                                                3) Things to do with what people want to use GPS receiving units for.

                                                It is fairly obvious that GPX should take care of (1). Let's discuss
                                                (2).

                                                There are a bunch of things besides lat and long which tell you how
                                                much to trust lat and long: stuff like whether the fix was 2D or 3D.
                                                And the time of the fix tells you a lot about it. How about this:

                                                geoidheight: Height, in meters, of mean sea level above WGS-84
                                                earth ellipsoid.

                                                This is in GPX because it's part of NMEA. Excuse my ignorance but I
                                                don't understand why it's important. I'll argue that if it helps in
                                                a telling you how accurate the fix was (I have no idea if it does or
                                                not), and it can't be calculated from other information already in
                                                GPX, it should be in GPX.

                                                And now we come to (3). A street address ... well, SatNav units need
                                                that stuff. Temperature is useful for mariners and aviators.
                                                Associating an image or sound with a point might be useful for
                                                anyone. But of this, there is no end: how about the air pressure at
                                                that point at the time of the fix, or a URL which would let you
                                                associate the point with pretty-much anything ? Let's leave that
                                                stuff out of GPX and let people make extensions for it.

                                                This makes it all seem neat, but what about <sym> ? It's used on
                                                pretty-much every GPS receiver, because almost everyone wants to
                                                classify their points. But according to my system, it's in section 3
                                                so it shouldn't be part of GPX, but part of the 'SatNav' extensions,
                                                or the 'Marine' extensions. In fact my SatNav unit has three
                                                completely different sets of symbols: one for normal map points, one
                                                for special points of interest so that Asian food places can have a
                                                different icon to Pizza places, and one for POIs that the user can
                                                upload from their computers. So that also argues that symbols should
                                                be in extensions, not GPX.

                                                So maybe we should expect every GPS unit to need at least one set of
                                                extensions.

                                                Simon.
                                              • Dan Anderson
                                                ... data. What it comes down to is that it is meant to exchange GPS data but since it so widely adopted it would be far easier to switch the intent of the
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 17, 2007
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                                                  --- In gpsxml@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Irish" <jeremy@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > I disagree with the idea that GPX isn't really about exchanging GPS
                                                  data. What it comes down to is that it is meant to exchange GPS data
                                                  but since it so widely adopted it would be far easier to switch the
                                                  intent of the schema to some personal (non GPS) project or interest.
                                                  It should allow the exchange of GPS data and do that best. Leave the
                                                  extra stuff to the other applications that want it.
                                                  >
                                                  > GML is a way to exchange spatial data. Yeah, it's complicated so not
                                                  widely used, much like GPX would be if there was a change of thinking
                                                  around GPX. So please keep it simple.
                                                  >
                                                  > This is, of course, a biased opinion. It makes perfect sense to me
                                                  to have an extension that I handle for Geocaching.com so I can add the
                                                  necessary changes based on the feature requests from the geocaching
                                                  community. For that reason I doubt I'd shift to some formal geocache
                                                  tag created by a committee outside of Groundspeak.
                                                  [snip]

                                                  Bottom line is that I agree with Jeremy. In principle I agree with
                                                  Kerry in design. Kerry asked if GPX is about exchanging location
                                                  data. I'll take my point of view from the following document:

                                                  http://www.topografix.com/gpx.asp

                                                  It starts with:
                                                  "What is GPX?
                                                  GPX (the GPS Exchange Format) is a light-weight XML data format for
                                                  the interchange of GPS data (waypoints, routes, and tracks) between
                                                  applications and Web services on the Internet."

                                                  I don't see GPX as exchanging "location" data. I see it as exchanging
                                                  data for GPS receivers. I see GPX_Overlay as exchanging additional
                                                  map related data not intended for GPS receivers.

                                                  The GPX schema could have been done differently but it is what we have
                                                  right now. Because there are many applications that support it, I
                                                  wouldn't encourage a major change at this time.

                                                  Someday we may have more receivers that have a public format for maps
                                                  and POI's. If Garmin doesn't "put their foot down", we are almost
                                                  there with one brand. I could see a schema in the future that not
                                                  only supports waypoints, routes, and tracks but also supports
                                                  polylines, areas, and POI's, etc. - objects intended for the mapping
                                                  area of the receiver. So we would be able to exchange complete map
                                                  and POI data for the receivers.

                                                  I'd like to see us address the immediate problems that people are
                                                  having. Small additions to the GPX schema and/or the GPX_Overlay
                                                  schema (or some new extension schema) could help many people.

                                                  Dan A.
                                                • Dan Foster
                                                  Hello, ... Just to be clear, I distinguish between the base GPX 1.1 or 1.0 schema and GPX . I wasn t suggesting that the base GPX schema be made more
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jan 17, 2007
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                                                    Hello,

                                                    Wednesday, January 17, 2007, 8:20:50 PM, Jeremy wrote:

                                                    > I disagree with the idea that GPX isn't really about exchanging GPS
                                                    > data. What it comes down to is that it is meant to exchange GPS data
                                                    > but since it so widely adopted it would be far easier to switch the
                                                    > intent of the schema to some personal (non GPS) project or interest.
                                                    > It should allow the exchange of GPS data and do that best. Leave the
                                                    > extra stuff to the other applications that want it.
                                                    >
                                                    > GML is a way to exchange spatial data. Yeah, it's complicated so
                                                    > not widely used, much like GPX would be if there was a change of
                                                    > thinking around GPX. So please keep it simple.

                                                    Just to be clear, I distinguish between "the base GPX 1.1 or 1.0
                                                    schema" and "GPX". I wasn't suggesting that the base GPX schema be
                                                    made more complicated by adding phone numbers, image sizes, and the
                                                    like - in fact, I'd like to see it reduced to about
                                                    30% of it's current file size. I was talking about expressing other
                                                    types of data (geocaches, images, oil wells) inside GPX files, through
                                                    the inclusion of additional schemas.

                                                    It would be helpful in the future if statements like "that doesn't
                                                    belong in GPX" were instead phrased as "that doesn't belong in the
                                                    base GPX schema" or "that doesn't belong in a GPX file, ever".

                                                    Sorry for making my position unclear - maybe some of you could clarify
                                                    your positions as well.

                                                    --
                                                    Dan Foster
                                                  • Simon Slavin
                                                    ... Yes, that s a far better way of expressing what I mean: distinguish between base GPX schema and stuff that would more appropriately be in an extension
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jan 18, 2007
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                                                      On 18 Jan 2007, at 4:47am, Dan Foster wrote:

                                                      > I was talking about expressing other
                                                      > types of data (geocaches, images, oil wells) inside GPX files, through
                                                      > the inclusion of additional schemas.
                                                      >
                                                      > It would be helpful in the future if statements like "that doesn't
                                                      > belong in GPX" were instead phrased as "that doesn't belong in the
                                                      > base GPX schema" or "that doesn't belong in a GPX file, ever".

                                                      Yes, that's a far better way of expressing what I mean: distinguish
                                                      between base GPX schema and stuff that would more appropriately be in
                                                      an extension schema. Sorry for my poor phrasing earlier.

                                                      Simon.
                                                    • jambri
                                                      ... members ... There is a unofficial GPX v3 extension out there that garmin already uses (in its map source program) that is also supported by garmins poi
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Feb 21, 2007
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                                                        --- In gpsxml@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Adomatis" <gps_maps@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Is this still the place for talking about GPX or is this now just a
                                                        > place for me to get stock trading tips?
                                                        >
                                                        > In the Map Authors group, a few of us are working on Tour Guides in
                                                        > Garmin GPI format. So far as I know, we can't assign a phone number
                                                        > to a point of interst. Given that ther are many more appilications
                                                        > using GPX than GPI format, i thought I would bring this up to
                                                        members
                                                        > of this group and suggest that when the GPX schema is revised it
                                                        > incude phone number attribute for waypoints.
                                                        > Do other agree?
                                                        > - Doug
                                                        > www.TravelByGPS.com
                                                        >
                                                        There is a unofficial GPX v3 extension out there that garmin already
                                                        uses (in its map source program) that is also supported by garmins
                                                        poi loader (both beta versions). go here for format
                                                        http://www.garmin.com/xmlschemas/GpxExtensions/v3
                                                        it supports both phone numbers and addreses (not just a comment
                                                        field).
                                                        If you import a .gpx file with this format into one of the newer
                                                        garmin gps systems (ie streetpiliot or nuvi) that can dial phone
                                                        numbers you can import dialable phone numbers and FORMATTED addresses
                                                        as well as the waypoint and name information. I have yet to see a
                                                        third party waypoint program that supports entering in phone numbers
                                                        and exporting them into this format.

                                                        for a example of a working test version that can be uploaded to your
                                                        gps I have a file located here:
                                                        http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/2/20/798737/test.gpx
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