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GPX standard extensions

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  • Scout
    I offer the following GPX extension as a starting point for a standard. It s a work in progress. I ve recently changed it to be more compatible with
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 12, 2005
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      I offer the following GPX extension as a starting point for a
      standard. It's a work in progress. I've recently changed it to be
      more compatible with geocaching.com.au. I expect it'll be changing
      more. Might as well evolve it in a direction other sites think they
      can use, too.

      schema: http://geocaching.gpsgames.org/GPX/gpsgames.xsd
      example: http://geocaching.gpsgames.org/GPX/gpsgames.gpx

      --
      Scout http://GPSgames.org
    • Robert Lipe
      ... I ve had variations of this discussion with many different providers of geocaching extensions to GPX. I m behind the formation of _one_ such standard for
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 13, 2005
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        --- In gpsstash@yahoogroups.com, "Scout" <Scout@G...> wrote:
        >
        > I offer the following GPX extension as a starting point for a
        > standard. It's a work in progress. I've recently changed it to be
        > more compatible with geocaching.com.au. I expect it'll be changing

        I've had variations of this discussion with many different providers
        of geocaching extensions to GPX. I'm behind the formation of _one_
        such standard for geocaching extensions to GPX. Well, more
        accurately, I suppose I'm behind the formation of a second such
        standard and am wildly disinterested in more than two. :-)


        Scout, maybe I caught it at a bad moment, but your xsd has validation
        problems. Have you fed your sample to SAX2Count or any other
        validator lately?

        It's interesting that you based it on GPX 1.0 instead of GPX 1.1.
        For your needs, the differences are small - mostly in the way URLs are
        build. With 1.1 you can associate multiple linky links with a
        waypoint and that was the justification for that change. There wree
        also some changes to allow better attribute groupings of the global
        metadata.

        You need to spell out which fields are HTML and which are not. It
        looks like sometimes log is and sometimes log isn't but I'm not
        spotting a specifier which tells me which it is. This is a
        particular problem for <hint> which appears to allow two encodings
        that have to be individually parsed: it looks like you have to HTML
        parse it FIRST and then rot13 parse it. This is really clumsy for
        readers that are able to just hand an HTML encoded chunk of text to a
        widget for display.

        It's interesting that you've allowd <type> as a list. I could make a
        type of <type>regular hitchhiker multi webcam locationless<type> which
        would be legal but kind of paradoxical. While I won't point to the
        groundspeak example as a model of clarity, subsetting this into some
        mutually exclusive types that are easier for readers to parse (the
        point of XML is to NOT have to do much additional parsing on
        thefields...) would allow stronger typing and simplify the readers.


        If we want to do this in a more spam-free environment than this
        yahoogroup seems to be, we can move this discussion to the other
        mentioned place.
      • Scout
        ... That s fine with me. GPSgames.org is a producer of GPX, not a consumer. If the consumers (e.g., GpsBabel) publish an open standard that their tools will
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 13, 2005
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          "Robert Lipe" wrote:
          > I'm behind the formation of _one_ such standard for geocaching
          > extensions to GPX.

          That's fine with me. GPSgames.org is a producer of GPX, not a
          consumer. If the consumers (e.g., GpsBabel) publish an open standard
          that their tools will accept, I'll bend over backwards to try to
          produce that format. I offered the GPX that GPSgames.org currently
          produces in hopes of speeding the process up.

          > Scout, maybe I caught it at a bad moment, but your xsd has
          > validation problems. Have you fed your sample to SAX2Count
          > or any other validator lately?

          I apologize. I've been tweaking the xsd and sample in the last few
          days. I believe the version currently posted passes SAX2Count

          schema: http://geocaching.gpsgames.org/GPX/gpsgames.xsd
          example: http://geocaching.gpsgames.org/GPX/gpsgames.gpx

          > It's interesting that you based it on GPX 1.0 instead of GPX 1.1.

          That was just an oversight. I'm not familiar with the differences.

          > You need to spell out which fields are HTML and which are not.
          > It looks like sometimes log is and sometimes log isn't but I'm
          > not spotting a specifier which tells me which it is.

          The logs in the GPSgames.org GPX files should always be treated as
          HTML. They don't always have HTML markup in them, but they are all
          treated as HTML when displayed on the site. I'll look into how to
          specify this in the xsd.

          > This is a particular problem for <hint> which appears to allow
          > two encodings that have to be individually parsed: it looks like
          > you have to HTML parse it FIRST and then rot13 parse it.

          That is correct. I guess the point was not to have the plaintext hint
          in the GPX. Hand the HTML-encoded hint to your widget and display the
          encrypted hint, the same way the Web site does.

          > It's interesting that you've allowd <type> as a list.
          > I could make a type of <type>regular hitchhiker multi webcam
          > locationless<type> which would be legal but kind of paradoxical.

          Well... I'm not sure you can create mutually exclusive subsets. For
          example, I can place a multi-stage cache, with the first stage being
          a regular cache, the second stage a micro, and the last being a
          Webcam or a virtual. The reason I lumped them all in together is
          because I didn't want to restrict the creativity of geocachers. If
          they can think of a way to combine a hitchhiker with a locationless
          cache, I think that would be a clever addition to the hobby.

          That was the thinking anyway. If the majority of sites/programs
          really think it makes sense to create mutually exclusive types, I can
          find a best fit for whatever boxes some user of GPSgames.org might
          check off on that site.

          > If we want to do this in a more spam-free environment than this
          > yahoogroup seems to be, we can move this discussion to the other
          > mentioned place.

          I'll go where the traffic is. The Yahoo ads at the bottom of the
          emails never bothered me, personally. And the spams that come to this
          list could be controlled if the list owner was active and cared to.

          --
          Scout
        • Robert Lipe
          ... I intend to play the not my problem card on this one. I ll help review things and I ll even implement the code for ONE such extension, but I m really
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 13, 2005
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            > consumer. If the consumers (e.g., GpsBabel) publish an open standard
            > that their tools will accept, I'll bend over backwards to try to
            > produce that format.

            I intend to play the "not my problem" card on this one. I'll help
            review things and I'll even implement the code for ONE such extension,
            but I'm really not going to be the one to drive it.

            > I offered the GPX that GPSgames.org currently
            > produces in hopes of speeding the process up.

            I agree the IETF model ("rough consensus and working prototypes") is
            the way to make this happen in the least painful way.


            > days. I believe the version currently posted passes SAX2Count

            Lovely. Thanx.

            It's less important that it SAX2Count's at any moment in time than
            that you're attuned to the need for it pass validation and it sounds
            like you're hip with that.

            > > It's interesting that you based it on GPX 1.0 instead of GPX 1.1.
            > That was just an oversight. I'm not familiar with the differences.

            They were discussed on the GPX developer yahoogroup (sigh) before it
            was published. Archives should be there, but the schema was
            published some time ago.

            I should confess that only recently have I seen the need to add GPX
            1.1 to GPSBabel.


            > The logs in the GPSgames.org GPX files should always be treated as
            > HTML. They don't always have HTML markup in them, but they are all
            > treated as HTML when displayed on the site. I'll look into how to

            Therefore consumers of this data are not expected to preserve vertical
            whitespace in the logs and since <br> and <p> tags are rare, most of
            the things that look to the human observer as paragraph markers are
            expected to be collapsed into a single block, right?

            For example:

            <log><![CDATA[There should be nothing very difficult about this
            cache, besides the possibility of muggles being around periodically.

            When you find this cache, you should know why it is called the &qu

            should therefore be run together...


            > > two encodings that have to be individually parsed: it looks like
            > > you have to HTML parse it FIRST and then rot13 parse it.
            >
            > That is correct. I guess the point was not to have the plaintext hint
            > in the GPX. Hand the HTML-encoded hint to your widget and display the
            > encrypted hint, the same way the Web site does.

            Display choices should be made at the client end, not in the data
            encoding. If the program want to display it obscured in some way,
            that should be its choice.

            > > I could make a type of <type>regular hitchhiker multi webcam
            > > locationless<type> which would be legal but kind of paradoxical.
            >
            > Well... I'm not sure you can create mutually exclusive subsets. For

            I think I understand what you're trying to do (probably because you've
            observed the same limitations on "prior art" for this that I have) but
            you may have opened the door wider than you intended in the XSD.

            > That was the thinking anyway. If the majority of sites/programs
            > really think it makes sense to create mutually exclusive types, I can
            > find a best fit for whatever boxes some user of GPSgames.org might

            Think about a program trying to write helpful icons to a receiver (and
            I fully understand that's a less expressive media than either a web
            browser or english text) and see if you agree that some degree of
            categorization would be helpful.

            > I'll go where the traffic is. The Yahoo ads at the bottom of the
            > emails never bothered me, personally.

            Procmail ensures I never see those.

            > And the spams that come to this
            > list could be controlled if the list owner was active and cared to.

            Looking at the archives, it seems those conditions are false.
          • Scout
            ... Correct. On further study, I just discovered that GPSgames.org is mangling the hints because of the very problem you pointed out (both rot13 and HTML
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 13, 2005
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              RobertLipe wrote:
              > Therefore consumers of this data are not expected to preserve
              > vertical whitespace in the logs and since <br> and <p> tags are
              > rare, most of the things that look to the human observer as
              > paragraph markers are expected to be collapsed into a single
              > block, right?

              Correct. On further study, I just discovered that GPSgames.org is
              mangling the hints because of the very problem you pointed out (both
              rot13 and HTML encodings layered on top of each other.) What I said
              earlier about intent is still valid, but the GPSgames.org
              implementation in the sample GPX files is wrong. (One good discovery
              has come from this discussion already :-)

              > Display choices should be made at the client end, not in the data
              > encoding. If the program want to display it obscured in some way,
              > that should be its choice.

              In this case, I consider the choice was made by the geocache hider. He
              wants his comments to be rot13 encrypted. I think the data should be
              true to the author's desire. If some program wants to decrypt the
              comments, they are free to do this. On the other hand, I see how this
              interpretation requires everyone using the standard to agree on this
              treatment for this field and what the encryption algorithm is. So, if
              everyone else thinks the hint should be passed through GPX unencrypted,
              I can live with that.

              > see if you agree that some degree of
              > categorization would be helpful.

              I foresee endless debates about what that categorization should be. And
              when a decision is chiseled in stone, I foresee some creative
              individual creating a cache that breaks the categorization. So, I
              punted and lumped them all in together. But if categories emerge from
              this effort, I'm sure I'll accept them.

              > Looking at the archives, it seems those conditions are false.

              The list owner occasionally shows signs that he's still around, but the
              spam issue has come up before and the list owner hasn't posted any
              responses to suggestions for how to control it. It can be controlled
              fairly easily on Yahoo lists that receive as little traffic as this one.

              --
              Scout
            • Robert Lipe
              ... You re not the first to fall for this trick. :-) Also, if you re going to spell it out in HTML, shall we specify WHICH HTML or XHTML strain? Is it meant
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 13, 2005
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                > Correct. On further study, I just discovered that GPSgames.org is
                > mangling the hints because of the very problem you pointed out (both
                > rot13 and HTML encodings layered on top of each other.) What I said

                You're not the first to fall for this trick. :-)

                Also, if you're going to spell it out in HTML, shall we specify WHICH
                HTML or XHTML strain? Is it meant to be a fragment or a complete
                document? What if it contains a BODY tag, for example, which is
                illegal to test.

                > In this case, I consider the choice was made by the geocache hider. He
                > wants his comments to be rot13 encrypted. I think the data should be
                > true to the author's desire. If some program wants to decrypt the

                I buy more into the HTML model (the INTENDED one, not the unfortunate
                reality of the late 90's) where display of content is a choice of the
                user and not the creator. In just about any medium except paper
                (maybe you're reading the cache page on a PDA, on your cell fone or
                even on your ipod using the new module I just added to GPSBabel) I
                can't imagine a user voluntarily choosing rot13 so it's just
                additional work for you to encode it and for the readers to decode.
                If the "output to paper" module wants to encode it, it's free to do so.

                The cache placer made the choice that it's a hint. The consumer
                should make the choice how to format that.

                > I foresee endless debates about what that categorization should be. And
                > when a decision is chiseled in stone, I foresee some creative
                > individual creating a cache that breaks the categorization. So, I

                Yep, that's the recurring theme in these types of decisions. The
                creator wants free form stuff and the reader want something that can
                be programmatically categorized.

                In fact, it reminds me of another conversation I'm having on a related
                topic this very morning...

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gpsxml/message/882

                I won't dig in my heels on this point. I'll just display a default
                icon for everything.


                > responses to suggestions for how to control it. It can be controlled
                > fairly easily on Yahoo lists that receive as little traffic as this one.

                Oddly, there's so little traffice for me personally from this list
                that despite me receiving 87 messages from OTHER yahoogroups I have
                yet to see anything beyond my confirmation from THIS one.
              • Scout
                ... The author might have chosen rot13 to add a bit of difficulty for the users with no self control. On the other hand, the author may have no objections to
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 13, 2005
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                  "Robert Lipe" wrote:
                  > I can't imagine a user voluntarily choosing rot13 so it's just
                  > additional work for you to encode it and for the readers to
                  > decode.

                  The author might have chosen rot13 to add a bit of difficulty for the
                  users with no self control. On the other hand, the author may have no
                  objections to quick and convenient decoding. Who's to say. In any
                  case, I've already patched geocaching.gpsgames.org to output
                  unencrypted hints in the GPX file. Authors who really care can always
                  encrypt their hints before they enter them in the Web site's text box.

                  > if you're going to spell it out in HTML, shall we specify WHICH
                  > HTML or XHTML strain? Is it meant to be a fragment or a
                  > complete document?

                  The HTML produced by GPSgames.org is an HTML fragment. I guess more
                  properly, it's whatever the user types in the text box for "hint".
                  GPSgames.org just pastes the contents into the page, whether it
                  displays properly or not. (I guess I shouldn't admit that. Or I
                  should put some safeguards in place to prevent malicious HTML. Yikes.
                  Another unfortunate discovery due to this discussion.)

                  If you can suggest a way to specify the HTML strain a GPX text field
                  should be compliant with, I'll incorporate it.

                  > Oddly, there's so little traffice for me personally from this list

                  Me, too. That's why I suggested this list. It needs some geocaching-
                  related traffic. It's a historical resource that shouldn't be allowed
                  to die an ignoble death, suffocation by spam.

                  --
                  Scout
                • Robert Lipe
                  ... I think that s a good move. ... Wooo hooo! I feel some spl01ts coming on now! :-) ... I don t know of prior art on this. It seems insufficiently
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 13, 2005
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                    > case, I've already patched geocaching.gpsgames.org to output
                    > unencrypted hints in the GPX file. Authors who really care can

                    I think that's a good move.

                    > GPSgames.org just pastes the contents into the page, whether it
                    > displays properly or not. (I guess I shouldn't admit that. Or I
                    > should put some safeguards in place to prevent malicious HTML. Yikes.
                    > Another unfortunate discovery due to this discussion.)

                    Wooo hooo! I feel some 'spl01ts coming on now! :-)

                    > If you can suggest a way to specify the HTML strain a GPX text field
                    > should be compliant with, I'll incorporate it.

                    I don't know of prior art on this. It seems insufficiently
                    specified, but I don't know how to "fix" it.



                    > > Oddly, there's so little traffice for me personally from this list
                    >
                    > Me, too. That's why I suggested this list.

                    So you aren't actually getting these message, either, and you are also
                    reading and responding by looking at the web archives?

                    That's not really much of an improvement over the phpbbs situation
                    that I fussed about.
                  • Scout
                    ... I m getting individual emails from the list. The list passes spam on without any barrier. Some of it gets trapped by my mail server or mail reader. A few
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 13, 2005
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                      "Robert Lipe" wrote:
                      > So you aren't actually getting these message, either, and you are
                      > also reading and responding by looking at the web archives?
                      >
                      > That's not really much of an improvement over the phpbbs situation
                      > that I fussed about.

                      I'm getting individual emails from the list. The list passes spam on
                      without any barrier. Some of it gets trapped by my mail server or
                      mail reader. A few spams get through to my inbox. Not enough on this
                      list to really bother me. The number could go down to virtually zero
                      if the list owner moderated new subscribers until they post their
                      first legitimate message. Yahoo has a setting for this and it works
                      well on the lists that employ it. This one doesn't, unfortunately.

                      My dislike of phpbbs is that there's no way to consolidate them. They
                      sprout up like weeds and you can't keep up with all of them. With
                      mailing lists, you can have all the traffic come to you. Usenet is
                      even better, but that's a lost art. Maybe RSS can offer a solution
                      with Web forums.

                      --
                      Scout
                    • Mike Frazier
                      actually newer webforums offer an option to get notified (via email) when there are updates to specific threads or forums, so you can have a tickler reminder
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 13, 2005
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                        actually newer webforums offer an option to get notified (via email)
                        when there are updates to specific threads or forums, so you can have a
                        tickler reminder sent ot you to go check out the forum when things of
                        interest get posted.

                        But yes, web forums are not in your face like good ol email lists...

                        Scout wrote:

                        >
                        > "Robert Lipe" wrote:
                        > > So you aren't actually getting these message, either, and you are
                        > > also reading and responding by looking at the web archives?
                        > >
                        > > That's not really much of an improvement over the phpbbs situation
                        > > that I fussed about.
                        >
                        > I'm getting individual emails from the list. The list passes spam on
                        > without any barrier. Some of it gets trapped by my mail server or
                        > mail reader. A few spams get through to my inbox. Not enough on this
                        > list to really bother me. The number could go down to virtually zero
                        > if the list owner moderated new subscribers until they post their
                        > first legitimate message. Yahoo has a setting for this and it works
                        > well on the lists that employ it. This one doesn't, unfortunately.
                        >
                        > My dislike of phpbbs is that there's no way to consolidate them. They
                        > sprout up like weeds and you can't keep up with all of them. With
                        > mailing lists, you can have all the traffic come to you. Usenet is
                        > even better, but that's a lost art. Maybe RSS can offer a solution
                        > with Web forums.
                        >
                        > --
                        > Scout
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The gpsstash page
                        > http://www.geocaching.com
                        >
                        > Buxley's Geocaching Waypoint
                        > http://www.brillig.com/geocaching/
                        >
                        >
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Ed Hall
                        I m pleased to announce that the maps on Buxley s Waypoint now display the current month s crop of geodashing points. You can visit Buxley s Waypoint on the
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 13, 2005
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                          I'm pleased to announce that the maps on Buxley's Waypoint now display
                          the current month's crop of geodashing points. You can visit Buxley's
                          Waypoint on the web at http://www.brillig.com/geocaching/

                          A geodash point (commonly called a "dashpoint") is a randomly selected
                          point on the Earth's surface that people can visit and then log what
                          they found. To keep the game fresh, the dashpoints move to a new
                          location on the first day of every month. Dashpoints have an uncanny
                          knack for falling in very interesting spots and it's always fun to read
                          people's reports of what they've found each month.

                          You can learn more about geodashing by visiting the geodashing home page
                          at http://geodashing.gpsgames.org/ or by reading an excellent article
                          published last Fall in Today's Cacher:
                          http://todayscacher.com/2004/sep/people.asp

                          Enjoy, and happy dashing!

                          -Buxley

                          --
                          Ed Hall (edhall@...) http://www.brillig.com/
                          "There's a hell of a universe next door: let's go!" - e. e. cummings
                        • Scout
                          ... Thanks for that, Ed. It s a welcome addition to your already great geocaching maps. -- Scout http://GPSgames.org
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 14, 2005
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                            "Ed Hall" wrote:
                            > I'm pleased to announce that the maps on Buxley's Waypoint now
                            > display the current month's crop of geodashing points. You can
                            > visit Buxley's Waypoint on the web at
                            > http://www.brillig.com/geocaching/

                            Thanks for that, Ed. It's a welcome addition to your already great
                            geocaching maps.

                            --
                            Scout http://GPSgames.org
                          • Andrew Priest
                            ... Agree 100%. Well done. Andrew [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jan 14, 2005
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                              At 02:09 AM 15/01/2005, you wrote:

                              >Thanks for that, Ed. It's a welcome addition to your already great
                              >geocaching maps.

                              Agree 100%. Well done.

                              Andrew


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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