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Keeping Geocaching Free!

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  • navicacher
    This was just sent to me by the Geocaching.com auto bot... Read it slow and careful!! you see the part where it says To thank you for your support, you will
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 7, 2002
      This was just sent to me by the Geocaching.com auto bot... Read it
      slow and careful!! you see the part where it says "To thank you for
      your support, you will be locked in at the current membership rate
      for
      as long as you subscribe to the site."

      Well this to me says that there will be an increase in the
      future...the key word is "CURRENT"

      "Greetings from Geocaching.com -

      We're introducing a new option on the site: The Groundspeak Charter
      Membership. As a Groundspeak Charter Member, you will have access to
      premium features as well as access to new tools, GPS related games
      and
      activities in the near future. Initially there will only be a few new
      options for members, such as advanced Forum features and the ability
      to create Member Only caches. To thank you for your support, you will
      be locked in at the current membership rate for as long as you
      subscribe to the site. Because of the tremendous growth of the sport
      over the last year, the cost of bandwidth and hardware/software is
      almost at capacity. Your support will greatly help to ensure the
      continuing operation of the web site.

      Don't worry! We aren't changing the geocaching site you have come to
      know and love. Subscriptions are completely optional and won't impact
      your enjoyment of the sport.

      To find out about the Groundspeak Charter Membership, visit:
      http://www.geocaching.com/subscribe
      <A HREF="http://www.geocaching.com/subscribe">AOL users click
      here</A>

      There are also two exciting new additions to the Geocaching.com site:
      Profiles and the new OpenTopic Forums.

      - Now you can now click on a user's name and see the profile of a
      geocacher. You can find out the caches they have hidden/found, see
      any
      posted photos, and read other details that the user cares to share.
      You can also personally visit your "my cache page" and add your own
      information to share with others.

      - The new forums are now completely integrated, so your
      Geocaching.com
      login will work in the forums and the web site. There are also new
      features such as integrated profiles, user generated polls, and
      MyPop!
      (Charter Members Only) which will allow you to monitor entire forums
      or a specific user's posts. There are too many other features to
      explain here, so see for yourself! Just click on the "discuss
      geocaching" link on geocaching.com to visit the new forums."

      Geocaching was not ever meant to be a pay to play sport/activity.
      There is covering your expenses and then theres making a huge
      profit. I run a site and know the costs and what it takes. I created
      Navicache.com so that things like this didn't have to happen, you
      have a choice, Geocaching can become very commercial or remain as it
      should be.


      Quinn.
      www.navicache.com
    • navicacher
      This was just sent to me by the Geocaching.com auto bot... Read it slow and careful!! you see the part where it says To thank you for your support, you will
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 8, 2002
        This was just sent to me by the Geocaching.com auto bot... Read it
        slow and careful!! you see the part where it says "To thank you for
        your support, you will be locked in at the current membership rate
        for
        as long as you subscribe to the site."

        Well this to me says that there will be an increase in the
        future...the key word is "CURRENT"

        "Greetings from Geocaching.com -

        We're introducing a new option on the site: The Groundspeak Charter
        Membership. As a Groundspeak Charter Member, you will have access to
        premium features as well as access to new tools, GPS related games
        and
        activities in the near future. Initially there will only be a few new
        options for members, such as advanced Forum features and the ability
        to create Member Only caches. To thank you for your support, you will
        be locked in at the current membership rate for as long as you
        subscribe to the site. Because of the tremendous growth of the sport
        over the last year, the cost of bandwidth and hardware/software is
        almost at capacity. Your support will greatly help to ensure the
        continuing operation of the web site.

        Don't worry! We aren't changing the geocaching site you have come to
        know and love. Subscriptions are completely optional and won't impact
        your enjoyment of the sport.

        To find out about the Groundspeak Charter Membership, visit:
        http://www.geocaching.com/subscribe
        <A HREF="http://www.geocaching.com/subscribe">AOL users click
        here</A>

        There are also two exciting new additions to the Geocaching.com site:
        Profiles and the new OpenTopic Forums.

        - Now you can now click on a user's name and see the profile of a
        geocacher. You can find out the caches they have hidden/found, see
        any
        posted photos, and read other details that the user cares to share.
        You can also personally visit your "my cache page" and add your own
        information to share with others.

        - The new forums are now completely integrated, so your
        Geocaching.com
        login will work in the forums and the web site. There are also new
        features such as integrated profiles, user generated polls, and
        MyPop!
        (Charter Members Only) which will allow you to monitor entire forums
        or a specific user's posts. There are too many other features to
        explain here, so see for yourself! Just click on the "discuss
        geocaching" link on geocaching.com to visit the new forums."


        I created the website navicache.com in the hopes that things like
        this did
        not happen to the sport. There is no need for this and it can be
        prevented.
        I have nothing against a site making money but not to the extent
        that this
        has gone.
        I will continue to run Navicache.com as a "Free" Geocaching website
        for
        anyone wishing to add their cache submissions as well as just
        visiting. Your
        opinions are very much welcome.

        Sincerely,

        Quinn Stone
        www.navicache.com
      • Randy Hall
        ... Actually, Mr. Irish admitted (in message 444) - ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gpsstash/message/444 ... But not to worry, as it was reported later (in
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 8, 2002
          > Geocaching was not ever meant to be a pay to play sport/activity.

          Actually, Mr. Irish admitted (in message 444) -

          > I will be honest and say from the outset that I considered ways to make
          > money from geocaching.

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gpsstash/message/444

          > There is covering your expenses and then theres making a huge
          > profit. I run a site and know the costs and what it takes. I created
          > Navicache.com so that things like this didn't have to happen, you
          > have a choice, Geocaching can become very commercial or remain as it
          > should be.

          But not to worry, as it was reported later (in message 1801) -

          > Grounded Inc has announced in email and in the forums that it is no longer
          > pursuing a trademark on the word geocaching. Its web site was modified to
          > no longer claim that Jeremy Irish coined the term.
          >
          > Grounded Inc has announced in email and in the forums that the
          > geocaching.com Web site will remain forever free of charge. No subscription
          > fees, no pay-to-play, ever.

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gpsstash/message/1801

          Sorry, I'm quite the history buff. And the study of history almost
          always demonstrates that people get the history they deserve, for
          better or for worse, with no judgement passed.

          Cheers
        • Neil R. Ormos
          ... Puhleeze! Regardless of what Jeremy Irish might explicitly have stated or omitted to state, it was obvious from the outset that he was looking for ways to
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 9, 2002
            Randy Hall wrote:

            > ["Quinn Stone" <navicach@...> wrote:]

            >> Geocaching was not ever meant to be a pay to play
            >> sport/activity.

            > Actually, Mr. Irish admitted (in message 444) -

            >> I will be honest and say from the outset that I
            >> considered ways to make money from geocaching.

            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gpsstash/message/444

            >> There is covering your expenses and then theres
            >> making a huge profit. I run a site and know the
            >> costs and what it takes. I created Navicache.com so
            >> that things like this didn't have to happen, you
            >> have a choice, Geocaching can become very commercial
            >> or remain as it should be.

            Puhleeze! Regardless of what Jeremy Irish might
            explicitly have stated or omitted to state, it was
            obvious from the outset that he was looking for ways to
            commercialize the geocaching.com site. For example:

            (a) he attempted to claim copyright on certain data
            regarding caches (although some may question whether
            such data would be eligible for copyright protection);

            (b) he apparently sought a federal (U.S.) trade or
            service mark registration on the mark "Geocaching" but
            may now have abandoned it; and

            (c) he denied to at least one user access to the
            geocaching.com web site after that user provided an
            alternate presentation of certain cache-related data.

            Anyone who is now Shocked! Shocked! to see that he is
            finally offering subscriptions for, uh, premium access
            to the geocaching.com web site has not been paying
            attention.

            What the geocaching community needs in order to avoid
            the potential of extortionate use of monopoly power in
            geocache data is to separate the cache information
            database from the presentation apparatus. If the basic
            cache data (name, owner, location, hints, and any cache
            status/existence update) were separately available on a
            truly non-commercial, collectively-owned, and
            volunteer-operated site, it wouldn't particularly
            matter what Mr. Irish does with geocaching.com. Those
            users who feel Mr. Irish adds value could elect to pay
            him for access to his presentation. Quinn Stone and Ed
            "Buxley" Hall could have their spiffy sites and make
            them available free or by subscription, or whatever.
            And those users who would rather have the raw data
            would be able to use it and jazz it up any way they
            want.

            Unfortunately, it's too late for that. The hobby has
            already been AOL-ized, users have become addicted to
            the spiffy presentation, and it's highly unlikely that
            users can now be persuaded to register caches with a
            non-commercial database, even if someone wanted to go
            to the trouble of setting one up.
          • Dustin Sallings
            Around 20:06 on Mar 9, 2002, Neil R. Ormos said: # What the geocaching community needs in order to avoid the potential of # extortionate use of monopoly power
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 10, 2002
              Around 20:06 on Mar 9, 2002, Neil R. Ormos said:

              # What the geocaching community needs in order to avoid the potential of
              # extortionate use of monopoly power in geocache data is to separate the
              # cache information database from the presentation apparatus. If the
              # basic cache data (name, owner, location, hints, and any cache
              # status/existence update) were separately available on a truly
              # non-commercial, collectively-owned, and volunteer-operated site, it
              # wouldn't particularly matter what Mr. Irish does with geocaching.com.
              # Those users who feel Mr. Irish adds value could elect to pay him for
              # access to his presentation. Quinn Stone and Ed "Buxley" Hall could have
              # their spiffy sites and make them available free or by subscription, or
              # whatever. And those users who would rather have the raw data would be
              # able to use it and jazz it up any way they want.

              This has been discussed many times and has gone nowhere. It's
              very sad that such trivial information as a place on earth can be held
              almost as a trade secret. I may or may not be able to produce a better
              site than geocaching.com, but it's not relevant because the data is so
              valuable when people are paying to get it.

              # Unfortunately, it's too late for that. The hobby has already been
              # AOL-ized, users have become addicted to the spiffy presentation, and
              # it's highly unlikely that users can now be persuaded to register caches
              # with a non-commercial database, even if someone wanted to go to the
              # trouble of setting one up.

              It's not so much AOLization, it's just the lack of public data.
              Since I seem to be the only person who created a site that had any
              interest in sharing data in the first place (as far as I can tell), the
              only one that can succeed is the one with the most data points. Data
              hoarding is exactly what makes this so annoying. I would like raw access
              to the data for my own analysis (which I would share with the world if
              it's interesting at all).

              The recent appearance of navicaching.com (well, not *that* recent)
              doesn't appear to do a lot. As far as I can tell, it might as well be
              geocaching2.com. I keep seeing messages like, ``Keep Geocaching Free,''
              but I don't understand how another site operating the same way is helping
              anything. I see no data export mechanism on the site, and when I
              responded to a post here if there were a way to export the data, I was
              ignored. Perhaps I just missed the point.

              It's clear that the only way to maintain the openness of the
              activity as it was when it started is to get rid of all the data hoarding.
              It's also clear that that's not going to happen.

              --
              SPY My girlfriend asked me which one I like better.
              pub 1024/3CAE01D5 1994/11/03 Dustin Sallings <dustin@...>
              | Key fingerprint = 87 02 57 08 02 D0 DA D6 C8 0F 3E 65 51 98 D8 BE
              L_______________________ I hope the answer won't upset her. ____________
            • Alan Klein
              Actually I think his game plan transcends Geocache.com. While there s a great possibility of Jeremy making money on that, Graoundspeak, his asscoiate company,
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 10, 2002
                Actually I think his game plan transcends
                Geocache.com. While there's a great possibility of
                Jeremy making money on that, Graoundspeak, his
                asscoiate company, has created a wonderfully featured
                filled forum model using geocache.com as a testing
                ground. Now that the later's gone commercial, he can
                sell the forum model software and features to people
                like Yahoo and other organizations looking for a good
                "forum" program and even prove to them they can make
                money with it as he will be demostrating with
                geocache.com.

                The part that bothers me is Jeremy's "knight in
                shining armor" stance and that he's doing this to pay
                for servers and to prvent caches from being
                "vandalized". But like you said, he "captured" the
                market and you got to give him credit for a great
                business plan. I was thinking of listing my 6 active
                caches in navicache in addition to geocache.com where
                they are now listed - afterall I still own my caches I
                think.

                Alan
                --- "Neil R. Ormos" <ormos@...> wrote:
                > Randy Hall wrote:
                >
                > > ["Quinn Stone" <navicach@...> wrote:]
                >
                > >> Geocaching was not ever meant to be a pay to play
                > >> sport/activity.
                >
                > > Actually, Mr. Irish admitted (in message 444) -
                >
                > >> I will be honest and say from the outset that I
                > >> considered ways to make money from geocaching.
                >
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gpsstash/message/444
                >
                > >> There is covering your expenses and then theres
                > >> making a huge profit. I run a site and know the
                > >> costs and what it takes. I created Navicache.com
                > so
                > >> that things like this didn't have to happen, you
                > >> have a choice, Geocaching can become very
                > commercial
                > >> or remain as it should be.
                >
                > Puhleeze! Regardless of what Jeremy Irish might
                > explicitly have stated or omitted to state, it was
                > obvious from the outset that he was looking for ways
                > to
                > commercialize the geocaching.com site. For example:
                >
                > (a) he attempted to claim copyright on certain
                > data
                > regarding caches (although some may question
                > whether
                > such data would be eligible for copyright
                > protection);
                >
                > (b) he apparently sought a federal (U.S.) trade
                > or
                > service mark registration on the mark "Geocaching"
                > but
                > may now have abandoned it; and
                >
                > (c) he denied to at least one user access to the
                > geocaching.com web site after that user provided
                > an
                > alternate presentation of certain cache-related
                > data.
                >
                > Anyone who is now Shocked! Shocked! to see that he
                > is
                > finally offering subscriptions for, uh, premium
                > access
                > to the geocaching.com web site has not been paying
                > attention.
                >
                > What the geocaching community needs in order to
                > avoid
                > the potential of extortionate use of monopoly power
                > in
                > geocache data is to separate the cache information
                > database from the presentation apparatus. If the
                > basic
                > cache data (name, owner, location, hints, and any
                > cache
                > status/existence update) were separately available
                > on a
                > truly non-commercial, collectively-owned, and
                > volunteer-operated site, it wouldn't particularly
                > matter what Mr. Irish does with geocaching.com.
                > Those
                > users who feel Mr. Irish adds value could elect to
                > pay
                > him for access to his presentation. Quinn Stone and
                > Ed
                > "Buxley" Hall could have their spiffy sites and make
                > them available free or by subscription, or whatever.
                > And those users who would rather have the raw data
                > would be able to use it and jazz it up any way they
                > want.
                >
                > Unfortunately, it's too late for that. The hobby
                > has
                > already been AOL-ized, users have become addicted to
                > the spiffy presentation, and it's highly unlikely
                > that
                > users can now be persuaded to register caches with a
                > non-commercial database, even if someone wanted to
                > go
                > to the trouble of setting one up.
                >
                >
                >
                >


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                http://mail.yahoo.com/
              • Neil R. Ormos
                ... Regardless of earlier discussions, the threat of pay to play , which was merely speculation in the past, is now real. It s time to revisit the issue of a
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 12, 2002
                  Dustin Sallings wrote:

                  > Neil R. Ormos said:

                  >> What the geocaching community needs in order to avoid the
                  >> potential of extortionate use of monopoly power in
                  >> geocache data is to separate the cache information
                  >> database from the presentation apparatus. If the basic
                  >> cache data (name, owner, location, hints, and any cache
                  >> status/existence update) were separately available on a
                  >> truly non-commercial, collectively-owned, and
                  >> volunteer-operated site, ...

                  > This has been discussed many times and has gone nowhere.
                  > It's very sad that such trivial information as a place on
                  > earth can be held almost as a trade secret. I may or may
                  > not be able to produce a better site than geocaching.com,
                  > but it's not relevant because the data is so valuable when
                  > people are paying to get it.

                  Regardless of earlier discussions, the threat of "pay to
                  play", which was merely speculation in the past, is now
                  real. It's time to revisit the issue of a non-commercial
                  database.

                  >> Unfortunately, it's too late for that. The hobby has
                  >> already been AOL-ized, users have become addicted to the
                  >> spiffy presentation, and it's highly unlikely that users
                  >> can now be persuaded to register caches with a
                  >> non-commercial database, even if someone wanted to go to
                  >> the trouble of setting one up.

                  > It's not so much AOLization, it's just the lack of public
                  > data. Since I seem to be the only person who created a
                  > site that had any interest in sharing data in the first
                  > place (as far as I can tell), the only one that can
                  > succeed is the one with the most data points. Data
                  > hoarding is exactly what makes this so annoying. I would
                  > like raw access to the data for my own analysis (which I
                  > would share with the world if it's interesting at all).

                  You blame data hoarding, but it is exactly AOLization that
                  has created the underlying atmosphere in which data hoarding
                  is not only permitted, but thrives. It is exactly the
                  AOL-style users that will suffer any indignity to get a
                  little convenience and spiffy presentation. It is exactly
                  the AOL-style users who are unmotivated or unwilling to
                  contribute their cache information to an independent cache
                  database. It is exactly the AOL-style users who migrated
                  almost all geocaching discussion away from Usenet and
                  relatively unmoderated e-mail groups onto web-based "forums"
                  with their censorship and inane web-based interfaces. And
                  it is exactly the AOL-style users who are unable to
                  understand the risk data hoarding presents to the future of
                  the hobby. Obviously, by "AOLization" I'm not referring to
                  all AOL users or solely to AOL users, but rather to the user
                  community that doesn't understand or value free access to
                  basic data.

                  > The recent appearance of navicaching.com (well, not *that*
                  > recent) doesn't appear to do a lot. As far as I can tell,
                  > it might as well be geocaching2.com. I keep seeing
                  > messages like, ``Keep Geocaching Free,'' but I don't
                  > understand how another site operating the same way is
                  > helping anything. I see no data export mechanism on the
                  > site, and when I responded to a post here if there were a
                  > way to export the data, I was ignored. Perhaps I just
                  > missed the point.

                  > It's clear that the only way to maintain the openness of
                  > the activity as it was when it started is to get rid of
                  > all the data hoarding. It's also clear that that's not
                  > going to happen.

                  If someone would define a simple format for an e-mail
                  message containing the essential cache information, it
                  wouldn't be too hard for individuals to code up descriptions
                  of, say, 10 nearby caches and submit them to the database.
                  You could probably get 85 % coverage of existing caches
                  within six months, which would be a good start.
                • Navicache
                  There is a very simple answer to all of this. submitting caches to both websites ... I said once before that with support from referrer fee s and also sponsors
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 13, 2002
                    There is a very simple answer to all of this. submitting caches to both websites ... I said once before that with support from referrer fee's and also sponsors there is no need to charge the public for access. If people wish to copy over their cache page information that belongs to them to www.navicache.com there will NOT be any charge to use that information by another person.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Neil R. Ormos
                    To: gpsstash@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:44 PM
                    Subject: Re: [gpsstash] Keeping Geocaching Free!


                    Dustin Sallings wrote:

                    > Neil R. Ormos said:

                    >> What the geocaching community needs in order to avoid the
                    >> potential of extortionate use of monopoly power in
                    >> geocache data is to separate the cache information
                    >> database from the presentation apparatus. If the basic
                    >> cache data (name, owner, location, hints, and any cache
                    >> status/existence update) were separately available on a
                    >> truly non-commercial, collectively-owned, and
                    >> volunteer-operated site, ...

                    > This has been discussed many times and has gone nowhere.
                    > It's very sad that such trivial information as a place on
                    > earth can be held almost as a trade secret. I may or may
                    > not be able to produce a better site than geocaching.com,
                    > but it's not relevant because the data is so valuable when
                    > people are paying to get it.

                    Regardless of earlier discussions, the threat of "pay to
                    play", which was merely speculation in the past, is now
                    real. It's time to revisit the issue of a non-commercial
                    database.

                    >> Unfortunately, it's too late for that. The hobby has
                    >> already been AOL-ized, users have become addicted to the
                    >> spiffy presentation, and it's highly unlikely that users
                    >> can now be persuaded to register caches with a
                    >> non-commercial database, even if someone wanted to go to
                    >> the trouble of setting one up.

                    > It's not so much AOLization, it's just the lack of public
                    > data. Since I seem to be the only person who created a
                    > site that had any interest in sharing data in the first
                    > place (as far as I can tell), the only one that can
                    > succeed is the one with the most data points. Data
                    > hoarding is exactly what makes this so annoying. I would
                    > like raw access to the data for my own analysis (which I
                    > would share with the world if it's interesting at all).

                    You blame data hoarding, but it is exactly AOLization that
                    has created the underlying atmosphere in which data hoarding
                    is not only permitted, but thrives. It is exactly the
                    AOL-style users that will suffer any indignity to get a
                    little convenience and spiffy presentation. It is exactly
                    the AOL-style users who are unmotivated or unwilling to
                    contribute their cache information to an independent cache
                    database. It is exactly the AOL-style users who migrated
                    almost all geocaching discussion away from Usenet and
                    relatively unmoderated e-mail groups onto web-based "forums"
                    with their censorship and inane web-based interfaces. And
                    it is exactly the AOL-style users who are unable to
                    understand the risk data hoarding presents to the future of
                    the hobby. Obviously, by "AOLization" I'm not referring to
                    all AOL users or solely to AOL users, but rather to the user
                    community that doesn't understand or value free access to
                    basic data.

                    > The recent appearance of navicaching.com (well, not *that*
                    > recent) doesn't appear to do a lot. As far as I can tell,
                    > it might as well be geocaching2.com. I keep seeing
                    > messages like, ``Keep Geocaching Free,'' but I don't
                    > understand how another site operating the same way is
                    > helping anything. I see no data export mechanism on the
                    > site, and when I responded to a post here if there were a
                    > way to export the data, I was ignored. Perhaps I just
                    > missed the point.

                    > It's clear that the only way to maintain the openness of
                    > the activity as it was when it started is to get rid of
                    > all the data hoarding. It's also clear that that's not
                    > going to happen.

                    If someone would define a simple format for an e-mail
                    message containing the essential cache information, it
                    wouldn't be too hard for individuals to code up descriptions
                    of, say, 10 nearby caches and submit them to the database.
                    You could probably get 85 % coverage of existing caches
                    within six months, which would be a good start.



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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • John E.
                    NRO Regardless of earlier discussions, the threat of pay to NRO play , which was merely speculation in the past, is now NRO real. Really? I haven t seen
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 13, 2002
                      NRO> Regardless of earlier discussions, the threat of "pay to
                      NRO> play", which was merely speculation in the past, is now
                      NRO> real.

                      Really? I haven't seen anything that *requires* me to pay to
                      Geocache. And I haven't seen anything that *requires* me to pay to
                      view cache descriptions at www.geocaching.com. Sure, it seems as
                      though there might be some cache descriptions which will require a fee
                      to view, but I haven't run across any of those yet (and I may never
                      see them as I may never pay to see them).

                      But, all of the cache pages I have looked at in the past can still be
                      viewed without paying a fee.

                      IMHO, the whole thing is getting blown out of proportion. Based on
                      statements made so far, those who want to pay to view some extra cache
                      pages can do so. Those who don't will still be able to view cache
                      pages. Likewise, those who want to use an "official" travel bug can
                      pay to do so, those who want to create their own traveler still can.

                      It's time for a walk in the woods, there's too many people around here
                      making a lot of assumptions. Geocaching is still free. Access to
                      most of www.geocaching.com is still free. I have yet to have cache
                      pages or access to www.geocaching.com because I haven't paid. Sure,
                      that may change, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Heck,
                      I might even pay to access the site, as I have gotten $30 of enjoyment
                      out of Geocaching.

                      John
                    • eborsboo
                      I m very new to this group (and Geocaching), so pardon me if I m repeating an idea that has already been stated, or has already been discounted as unfeasable.
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 13, 2002
                        I'm very new to this group (and Geocaching), so pardon me if I'm
                        repeating an idea that has already been stated, or has already been
                        discounted as unfeasable. There may be a way around this issue.

                        Let's say we create a public database of "basic" GPS stash
                        information, such as coordinates, description, and logs only. We
                        could provide a way for sites like geocaching.com and navicache to
                        automatically update the public database whenever users on those
                        sites make changes, and to automatically get changes made from other
                        sites. We would also provide all the "basic" data in a downloadable
                        archive format, so nobody can hoard the information.

                        Sites like geocaching.com can still provide value-added services,
                        such as photos, forums, maps, and all those convenience features that
                        the "AOL" users love. Thus, they can still have a revenue stream, if
                        they need it. The sites get the benefit of having all the
                        information from other sites as well, so the information isn't
                        fragmented (after all, geocaching.com loses if half the world's cache
                        information isn't accessable there).

                        So the hard part is convincing geocaching.com to go along with this.
                        Since I know very little about the politics involved, I have no idea
                        if this is possible or not. I do know that I hate it when someone
                        else claims ownership of user submitted information.


                        --- In gpsstash@y..., "Neil R. Ormos" <ormos@e...> wrote:
                        > Unfortunately, it's too late for that. The hobby has
                        > already been AOL-ized, users have become addicted to
                        > the spiffy presentation, and it's highly unlikely that
                        > users can now be persuaded to register caches with a
                        > non-commercial database, even if someone wanted to go
                        > to the trouble of setting one up.
                      • Richard Amirault
                        Massachusetts has it s first members only cache listed this past weekend, I Love Airplane Noise!
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 13, 2002
                          Massachusetts has it's first "members only" cache listed this past weekend,
                          "I Love Airplane Noise!"

                          http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest_cache.asp?state_id=22&submit2=GO

                          It *has* started, and as more and more use this option it will be only a
                          matter of time before they shart showing up in your area. You can't view
                          this cache information unless you pay.

                          Richard Amirault N1JDU Boston, MA, USA
                          ramirault@... "Go Fly A Kite"
                          http:// www.erols.com/ramirault
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "John E." <rainmakr@...>
                          Subject: Re[2]: [gpsstash] Keeping Geocaching Free!


                          > NRO> Regardless of earlier discussions, the threat of "pay to
                          > NRO> play", which was merely speculation in the past, is now
                          > NRO> real.
                          >
                          > Really? I haven't seen anything that *requires* me to pay to
                          > Geocache. And I haven't seen anything that *requires* me to pay to
                          > view cache descriptions at www.geocaching.com. Sure, it seems as
                          > though there might be some cache descriptions which will require a fee
                          > to view, but I haven't run across any of those yet (and I may never
                          > see them as I may never pay to see them).
                          (snip)
                        • Richard Amirault
                          Simple? How do you let them know about both websites? Is Jeremy going to post a link to Navicache? Somehow, I don t think so. Richard Amirault
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 13, 2002
                            Simple? How do you let them know about both websites? Is Jeremy going to
                            post a link to Navicache? Somehow, I don't think so.

                            Richard Amirault N1JDU Boston, MA, USA
                            ramirault@... "Go Fly A Kite"
                            http:// www.erols.com/ramirault
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Navicache" <navicach@...>
                            Subject: Re: [gpsstash] Keeping Geocaching Free!


                            > There is a very simple answer to all of this. submitting caches to both
                            websites ... I said once before that with support from referrer fee's and
                            also sponsors there is no need to charge the public for access. If people
                            wish to copy over their cache page information that belongs to them to
                            www.navicache.com there will NOT be any charge to use that information by
                            another person.
                            (snip)
                          • Cory Goulding
                            John Said: Really? I haven t seen anything that *requires* me to pay to Geocache. Thanks for clearing that up a bit for me John. I for one only play the
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 13, 2002
                              John Said: ""Really? I haven't seen anything that *requires* me to pay to
                              Geocache.""

                              Thanks for clearing that up a bit for me John. I for one only play the sport for exactly what it was originally intended. If I go Geocaching 5 times during the summer I go to Geoching.com exactly 5 times and I go specifically to the zip code of the area I'm geocaching, pick the caches I want to find and close the program out. We get way to much snow in the winter to do much geocaching so I haven't even been to the sight since last summer the last time I went looking for a cache. With all the talk I figured the next time I logged in it was going to say "Sorry your membership has expired and you must pay a fee of $XX.XX to return to the sight." Nice to know I can still get for free what little I need from the sight. At least for now.

                              Cory










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                            • Dustin Sallings
                              Around 18:20 on Mar 13, 2002, eborsboo said: # Let s say we create a public database of basic GPS stash information, # such as coordinates, description, and
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 13, 2002
                                Around 18:20 on Mar 13, 2002, eborsboo said:

                                # Let's say we create a public database of "basic" GPS stash information,
                                # such as coordinates, description, and logs only. We could provide a way
                                # for sites like geocaching.com and navicache to automatically update the
                                # public database whenever users on those sites make changes, and to
                                # automatically get changes made from other sites. We would also provide
                                # all the "basic" data in a downloadable archive format, so nobody can
                                # hoard the information.

                                I did a *really* basic site one day that does basically what you
                                described:

                                http://bleu.west.spy.net/~dustin/geo/

                                It's ugly as hell, but the primary goal was to create a means of
                                collecting public data and exporting it in a consistent way:

                                http://bleu.west.spy.net/~dustin/geo/exportform.jsp

                                The only two points in there are the two that I added in June 2001
                                for testing, neither of which are caches, so don't get too excited about
                                there being a site with an export feature just yet.

                                --
                                SPY My girlfriend asked me which one I like better.
                                pub 1024/3CAE01D5 1994/11/03 Dustin Sallings <dustin@...>
                                | Key fingerprint = 87 02 57 08 02 D0 DA D6 C8 0F 3E 65 51 98 D8 BE
                                L_______________________ I hope the answer won't upset her. ____________
                              • John E.
                                RA Simple? How do you let them know about both websites? Is Jeremy going to RA post a link to Navicache? Somehow, I don t think so. Likewise, I didn t see
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 13, 2002
                                  RA> Simple? How do you let them know about both websites? Is Jeremy going to
                                  RA> post a link to Navicache? Somehow, I don't think so.

                                  Likewise, I didn't see a link to Geocaching.com on the Navicache
                                  site... (looked at the Links and Home pages).
                                • John E.
                                  CG John Said: Really? I haven t seen anything that *requires* me to pay to CG Geocache. CG Thanks for clearing that up a bit for me John. I for
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Mar 13, 2002
                                    CG> John Said: ""Really? I haven't seen anything that *requires* me to pay to
                                    CG> Geocache.""

                                    CG> Thanks for clearing that up a bit for me John. I for one only play the sport for exactly what it was originally intended. If I go Geocaching 5 times during the summer I go to Geoching.com
                                    CG> exactly 5 times and I go specifically to the zip code of the area I'm geocaching, pick the caches I want to find and close the program out. We get way to much snow in the winter to do much
                                    CG> geocaching so I haven't even been to the sight since last summer the last time I went looking for a cache. With all the talk I figured the next time I logged in it was going to say "Sorry your
                                    CG> membership has expired and you must pay a fee of $XX.XX to return to the sight." Nice to know I can still get for free what little I need from the sight. At least for now.

                                    All of the caches within 100 miles of me (Omaha, NE) are the "old" style -- free
                                    to view and seek. I doubt I'd ever make any of mine members only. I
                                    enjoy reading about people's experiences in the cache logs. Making a
                                    cache members only would probably reduce the number of entries.

                                    John
                                  • John E.
                                    RA Massachusetts has it s first members only cache listed this past weekend, RA I Love Airplane Noise! RA
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Mar 13, 2002
                                      RA> Massachusetts has it's first "members only" cache listed this past weekend,
                                      RA> "I Love Airplane Noise!"

                                      RA> http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest_cache.asp?state_id=22&submit2=GO

                                      RA> It *has* started, and as more and more use this option it will be only a
                                      RA> matter of time before they shart showing up in your area. You can't view
                                      RA> this cache information unless you pay.

                                      But you don't *have* to pay to participate in Geocaching. There are
                                      thousands of other caches on the site that do not require a
                                      subscription to view. And, you're assuming that a number of people
                                      will create members only caches. I don't think that's going to be the
                                      case. I still don't understand what the benefit is, unless
                                      Geocaching.com is going to pay you a percentage based on # of times
                                      your cache has been found, # of members only caches you hide, or
                                      something else.

                                      The only reason I can think of that would prompt me to create a
                                      members only cache is if I owned (or really cared about) the property
                                      where the cache was hidden and it was just getting too darned many
                                      people. And in that case, I'd probably move or remove the cache. Maybe
                                      I'm just lucky to live in an area that hasn't been inundated with
                                      caches yet. I do care about the parks where I've hidden my
                                      caches. My caches exposed people to a couple of parks that many
                                      people didn't know existed, one within a 15 minute drive of the city.
                                      But there isn't a steady stream of people hiking to my caches...

                                      John
                                    • Navicache
                                      Nope...and wouldn t want him to. People more and more have been finding out the site exists, if they like it it s just another option for them...no pressure.
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Mar 13, 2002
                                        Nope...and wouldn't want him to. People more and more have been finding out the site exists, if they like it it's just another option for them...no pressure.
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Richard Amirault
                                        To: gpsstash@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 2:52 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [gpsstash] Keeping Geocaching Free!


                                        Simple? How do you let them know about both websites? Is Jeremy going to
                                        post a link to Navicache? Somehow, I don't think so.

                                        Richard Amirault N1JDU Boston, MA, USA
                                        ramirault@... "Go Fly A Kite"
                                        http:// www.erols.com/ramirault
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Navicache" <navicach@...>
                                        Subject: Re: [gpsstash] Keeping Geocaching Free!


                                        > There is a very simple answer to all of this. submitting caches to both
                                        websites ... I said once before that with support from referrer fee's and
                                        also sponsors there is no need to charge the public for access. If people
                                        wish to copy over their cache page information that belongs to them to
                                        www.navicache.com there will NOT be any charge to use that information by
                                        another person.
                                        (snip)



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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Ed Hall
                                        ... [deletia] ... Not to worry; one cache is not the end of the world. Of the hundreds of caches hidden in the past week, I think at most ten are Members
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Mar 14, 2002
                                          > Richard Amirault [mailto:ramirault@...] wrote:
                                          > Massachusetts has it's first "members only" cache listed this
                                          > past weekend
                                          [deletia]
                                          > It *has* started, and as more and more use this option it will be only a
                                          > matter of time before they shart showing up in your area. You can't view
                                          > this cache information unless you pay.

                                          Not to worry; one cache is not the end of the world. Of the hundreds of
                                          caches hidden in the past week, I think at most ten are "Members only"
                                          caches. For example, 57 caches were hidden in California last week (on
                                          Groundspeak) and only one of them was pay-for-play. Lots more caches were
                                          hidden on the other host sites and they're all completely free.

                                          There are still WAY too many free caches out there for me to ever find. If
                                          some cache owners want to make their caches less available by making them
                                          pay-to-play, I won't worry about it. I'll take my sealed pack of Cinnamon
                                          Altoids and hide them elsewhere. =)

                                          -Buxley

                                          --
                                          Ed Hall (edhall@...) http://www.brillig.com/geocaching/
                                          "Not all that glitters is gold. Not all those who wander are lost"
                                          -- J.R.R. Tolkien
                                        • Florian
                                          ... I have links to both. ;-) -Florian http://www.stargazing.com/
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Mar 14, 2002
                                            >Likewise, I didn't see a link to Geocaching.com on the Navicache
                                            >site... (looked at the Links and Home pages).

                                            I have links to both. ;-)

                                            -Florian
                                            http://www.stargazing.com/
                                          • Navicache
                                            Well then you should have looked at the site before the threat of legal action was mentioned against me if I did not remove the word Geocaching mid point of
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Mar 14, 2002
                                              Well then you should have looked at the site before the threat of legal action was mentioned against me if I did not remove the word"Geocaching" mid point of last year... I had a link on my main page and also in the links page to Geocaching.com .
                                              If you wish I could also provide you with 6 news tapes and a few paper articles that I did, in each one of these I mentioned the other site "plug", but I have not seen any mention from the other end.

                                              Navicache.com
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: John E.
                                              To: Richard Amirault
                                              Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:00 PM
                                              Subject: Re[2]: [gpsstash] Keeping Geocaching Free!


                                              RA> Simple? How do you let them know about both websites? Is Jeremy going to
                                              RA> post a link to Navicache? Somehow, I don't think so.

                                              Likewise, I didn't see a link to Geocaching.com on the Navicache
                                              site... (looked at the Links and Home pages).



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                                            • John E.
                                              N RA Simple? How do you let them know about both websites? Is Jeremy going to N RA post a link to Navicache? Somehow, I don t think so. N
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Mar 15, 2002
                                                N> RA> Simple? How do you let them know about both websites? Is Jeremy going to
                                                N> RA> post a link to Navicache? Somehow, I don't think so.

                                                N> Likewise, I didn't see a link to Geocaching.com on the Navicache
                                                N> site... (looked at the Links and Home pages).

                                                N> Well then you should have looked at the site before the threat of
                                                N> legal action was mentioned against me if I did not remove the
                                                N> word"Geocaching" mid point of last year... I had a link on my main
                                                N> page and also in the links page to Geocaching.com . If you wish I
                                                N> could also provide you with 6 news tapes and a few paper articles
                                                N> that I did, in each one of these I mentioned the other site "plug",
                                                N> but I have not seen any mention from the other end.

                                                But I notice that the word "Geocaching" is currently used on the
                                                Navicache site and that Jeremy has stated (since the legal threat? I
                                                don't know) that he will no longer pursue possible trademark issues
                                                for those using the term on their web site.

                                                Whether or not you've promoted Geocaching in radio, television, or
                                                newspaper interviews has nothing to do with the attack on
                                                Geocaching.com for not posting links to competing sites. The original
                                                comment was that Geocaching.com did not provide links to Navicache, I
                                                was merely pointing out that Navicache didn't provide a link to
                                                Geocaching.com, so the sites are "even." Perhaps the link was removed
                                                from the link page after the original threat and neglected to be put
                                                back on, I don't know. I know it's easy for something like that to
                                                happen.

                                                Simply, there have been a lot of assumptions lately about what Jeremy
                                                and the folks behind Geocaching.com are doing and will do in the
                                                future. There have also been some assumptions made by the
                                                Geocaching.com "supporters" or "tolerators". Personally, I think the
                                                topic has been beat to death and I don't think there needs to be as
                                                much animosity as there has been. But that's just me, and others feel
                                                strongly that there needs to be a battle to protect Geocaching, both
                                                the word and the sport. That's fine, but I see myself dropping out of
                                                the argument/discussion soon and going to the woods to do some
                                                Geocaching.

                                                John
                                              • Navicache
                                                The fact that the word Geocaching has not been re-added to Navicache.com as a link to that site was not neglect it was just that I refuse to. Call it
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Mar 17, 2002
                                                  The fact that the word "Geocaching has not been re-added to Navicache.com as a link to that site was not "neglect" it was just that I refuse to. Call it conflict of interest or whatever you want, thats just my feelings based on past events that have still to this date not changed. I use the word itself ("Geocaching") because not only has he stated it as being open to the public (not that he owned it anyways and I also had the blessing from the real creator of the word to use it) but I see it as being ruled open as well.
                                                  And Not usre if this was directed at me, but I did not attack the fact of him not linking to me, I simply said I had my reason, if that was one then so be it, that does not make it an attack.
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: John E.
                                                  To: Navicache
                                                  Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 12:02 AM
                                                  Subject: Re[4]: [gpsstash] Keeping Geocaching Free!


                                                  N> RA> Simple? How do you let them know about both websites? Is Jeremy going to
                                                  N> RA> post a link to Navicache? Somehow, I don't think so.

                                                  N> Likewise, I didn't see a link to Geocaching.com on the Navicache
                                                  N> site... (looked at the Links and Home pages).

                                                  N> Well then you should have looked at the site before the threat of
                                                  N> legal action was mentioned against me if I did not remove the
                                                  N> word"Geocaching" mid point of last year... I had a link on my main
                                                  N> page and also in the links page to Geocaching.com . If you wish I
                                                  N> could also provide you with 6 news tapes and a few paper articles
                                                  N> that I did, in each one of these I mentioned the other site "plug",
                                                  N> but I have not seen any mention from the other end.

                                                  But I notice that the word "Geocaching" is currently used on the
                                                  Navicache site and that Jeremy has stated (since the legal threat? I
                                                  don't know) that he will no longer pursue possible trademark issues
                                                  for those using the term on their web site.

                                                  Whether or not you've promoted Geocaching in radio, television, or
                                                  newspaper interviews has nothing to do with the attack on
                                                  Geocaching.com for not posting links to competing sites. The original
                                                  comment was that Geocaching.com did not provide links to Navicache, I
                                                  was merely pointing out that Navicache didn't provide a link to
                                                  Geocaching.com, so the sites are "even." Perhaps the link was removed
                                                  from the link page after the original threat and neglected to be put
                                                  back on, I don't know. I know it's easy for something like that to
                                                  happen.

                                                  Simply, there have been a lot of assumptions lately about what Jeremy
                                                  and the folks behind Geocaching.com are doing and will do in the
                                                  future. There have also been some assumptions made by the
                                                  Geocaching.com "supporters" or "tolerators". Personally, I think the
                                                  topic has been beat to death and I don't think there needs to be as
                                                  much animosity as there has been. But that's just me, and others feel
                                                  strongly that there needs to be a battle to protect Geocaching, both
                                                  the word and the sport. That's fine, but I see myself dropping out of
                                                  the argument/discussion soon and going to the woods to do some
                                                  Geocaching.

                                                  John



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