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Fwd: [Ballooning] Two Balloons scheduled for flight, one Thursday and one Friday from Ft. Sumner

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  • Mike Manes
    ... Subject: [Ballooning] Two Balloons scheduled for flight, one Thursday and one Friday from Ft. Sumner Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 04:09:30 -0700 From: Jack
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 7, 2014
      -------- Forwarded Message --------
      Subject: [Ballooning] Two Balloons scheduled for flight, one Thursday
      and one Friday from Ft. Sumner
      Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 04:09:30 -0700
      From: Jack Crabtree jscra@... [Ballooning]
      <Ballooning@yahoogroups.com>
      Reply-To: Ballooning@yahoogroups.com
      To: Ballooning <Ballooning@yahoogroups.com>





      Two high altitude balloon flights are scheduled for today and tomorrow.

      Today (8/7): NASA's WASP/HYSICS is scheduled for launch at 1400 UTC.
      This is a hyper spectral telescope payload. No amateur radio aboard.

      Tomorrow (8/8): High Altitude Student Platform (HASP) is scheduled for
      launch at 1400 UTC carrying 9 student built payloads, including
      Embry-Riddle's EagleSat engineering model. This payload will carry APRS
      and other engineering data transmitting on 436.500 MHz.

      Both are expected to fly along the I-40 corridor to the West and may fly
      as far as Kingman, AZ. Both should be visible for 100's of miles. Float
      altitude should be about 125,000 feet. Upper winds to the West is
      expected to be 50 kts.

      I will give an update to the status later this afternoon.

      Jack Crabtree, W7JLC
    • Michael Hojnowski
      Hi Gang, I ve done several launches where we observed the descent rate to be MUCH higher than the projections based on various parachute calculators. I ve
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 12, 2014
        Hi Gang,

        I've done several launches where we observed the descent rate to be MUCH
        higher than the projections based on various parachute calculators.
        I've grown suspicious that the parachute's function is being severely
        hampered by the remains of the balloon flying around and tugging and/or
        hitting the chute on the way down.

        I've seen some mechanical means used to release the balloon when lift is
        removed, but we're flying very light (100g) payloads. I haven't seen
        anything that would work with something so light.

        Presently we're flying with the payload directly attached to the chute
        with short cords (maybe 18"), and the parachute then connected to the
        balloon by a much longer 10' long cord.

        Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated!
        Mike / KD2EAT
      • Mike Manes
        EOSS s fast releases come in two sizes and weights, one for our heavies up to 50 lb neck lift and the lite for exempts up to 15 lb lift. You could make
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 12, 2014
          EOSS's fast releases come in two sizes and weights, one for our
          "heavies" up to 50 lb neck lift and the "lite" for exempts up
          to 15 lb lift. You could make an even lighter one suitable for
          your neck lift range using, say, PC board stock for the jaws. Skip
          the baro arming feature - just add an opening spring that requires
          near-zero lift line tension to open the jaws. Betcha you could do
          one for under 20 grams.
          73 de Mike W5VSI

          On 8/12/14 11:54, Michael Hojnowski kd2eat@... [GPSL] wrote:
          > Hi Gang,
          >
          > I've done several launches where we observed the descent rate to be MUCH
          > higher than the projections based on various parachute calculators.
          > I've grown suspicious that the parachute's function is being severely
          > hampered by the remains of the balloon flying around and tugging and/or
          > hitting the chute on the way down.
          >
          > I've seen some mechanical means used to release the balloon when lift is
          > removed, but we're flying very light (100g) payloads. I haven't seen
          > anything that would work with something so light.
          >
          > Presently we're flying with the payload directly attached to the chute
          > with short cords (maybe 18"), and the parachute then connected to the
          > balloon by a much longer 10' long cord.
          >
          > Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated!
          > Mike / KD2EAT
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          > Posted by: Michael Hojnowski <kd2eat@...>
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Barry Sloan
          First thing I’m wondering is whether your chute has an air dump opening at the top. If it doesn’t I’m guessing that the chute is often swinging side to
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 12, 2014

            First thing I’m wondering is whether your chute has an air dump opening at the top. If it doesn’t I’m guessing that the chute is often swinging side to side to allow the trapped air to escape with such a light payload attached so close to the chute and attaching the payload further away may make it harder for the chute to do this. I don’t see the remains of the balloon flying around and tugging and/or hitting the chute affecting it much, but if the remains weigh as much, or much more, than your light payload they would certain increase the descent speed over what the speed with just the payload would be.

             

            Barry VE6SBS

             

            From: GPSL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Hojnowski kd2eat@... [GPSL]
            Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 11:55 AM
            To: GPSL Balloon Reflector
            Subject: [GPSL] Parachute positioning and balloon interference

            Hi Gang,

            I've done several launches where we observed the descent rate to be MUCH
            higher than the projections based on various parachute calculators.
            I've grown suspicious that the parachute's function is being severely
            hampered by the remains of the balloon flying around and tugging and/or
            hitting the chute on the way down.

            I've seen some mechanical means used to release the balloon when lift is
            removed, but we're flying very light (100g) payloads. I haven't seen
            anything that would work with something so light.

            Presently we're flying with the payload directly attached to the chute
            with short cords (maybe 18"), and the parachute then connected to the
            balloon by a much longer 10' long cord.

            Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated!
            Mike / KD2EAT

          • Michael Hojnowski
            I m not presently using a vented chute, though I like the idea. On our last launch - 150g balloon + 107g payload, it landed with 38 grams of balloon still
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 12, 2014
              I'm not presently using a vented chute, though I like the idea.

              On our last launch - 150g balloon + 107g payload, it landed with 38 grams of balloon still attached,  If the chute was working fully, our descent rate should have been something like 5.0m/s.  Our actual was more like 8.9 m/s.  As it happens, our payload was fine with that, and in fact, I was ASSuming 8 m/s based on experience.  Still, it sure would be nice to work out this problem.

              I like the idea of the tension release, especially if we can realize it in 20g.  The idea definitely warrants some experimentation.

              Mike / KD2EAT


              On 8/12/2014 2:20 PM, Barry Sloan wrote:

              First thing I’m wondering is whether your chute has an air dump opening at the top. If it doesn’t I’m guessing that the chute is often swinging side to side to allow the trapped air to escape with such a light payload attached so close to the chute and attaching the payload further away may make it harder for the chute to do this. I don’t see the remains of the balloon flying around and tugging and/or hitting the chute affecting it much, but if the remains weigh as much, or much more, than your light payload they would certain increase the descent speed over what the speed with just the payload would be.

               

              Barry VE6SBS

               

              From: GPSL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Hojnowski kd2eat@... [GPSL]
              Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 11:55 AM
              To: GPSL Balloon Reflector
              Subject: [GPSL] Parachute positioning and balloon interference

              Hi Gang,

              I've done several launches where we observed the descent rate to be MUCH
              higher than the projections based on various parachute calculators.
              I've grown suspicious that the parachute's function is being severely
              hampered by the remains of the balloon flying around and tugging and/or
              hitting the chute on the way down.

              I've seen some mechanical means used to release the balloon when lift is
              removed, but we're flying very light (100g) payloads. I haven't seen
              anything that would work with something so light.

              Presently we're flying with the payload directly attached to the chute
              with short cords (maybe 18"), and the parachute then connected to the
              balloon by a much longer 10' long cord.

              Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated!
              Mike / KD2EAT


            • Jerry Gable
              I assume you are taking your altitude into account.  Most calculators I have seen assume you are at sea level.  The air density affects the decent rate
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 12, 2014
                I assume you are taking your altitude into account.  Most calculators I have seen assume you are at sea level.  The air density affects the decent rate significantly as you go up in altitude.

                You said that your payload is 18" below the chute.  I don't know if that is your shroud line length or this is below that.  Short shroud lines can greatly affect the decent speed as well.

                I like this site for info on parachutes: http://www.nakka-rocketry.net/paracon.html.  It is where I got the pattern I use for my parachutes as well as the source of most of my knowledge on the subject:)
                 
                 
                Jerry Gable
                Balloon Flights from APRS-IS
                Launch Notifications by email, twitter, & APRS
                http://www.s3research.com/flightdata/



                From: "Michael Hojnowski kd2eat@... [GPSL]" <GPSL-noreply@yahoogroups.com>
                To: 'GPSL Balloon Reflector' <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 11:32 AM
                Subject: Re: [GPSL] Parachute positioning and balloon interference

                 
                I'm not presently using a vented chute, though I like the idea.

                On our last launch - 150g balloon + 107g payload, it landed with 38 grams of balloon still attached,  If the chute was working fully, our descent rate should have been something like 5.0m/s.  Our actual was more like 8.9 m/s.  As it happens, our payload was fine with that, and in fact, I was ASSuming 8 m/s based on experience.  Still, it sure would be nice to work out this problem.

                I like the idea of the tension release, especially if we can realize it in 20g.  The idea definitely warrants some experimentation.

                Mike / KD2EAT


                On 8/12/2014 2:20 PM, Barry Sloan wrote:


                First thing I’m wondering is whether your chute has an air dump opening at the top. If it doesn’t I’m guessing that the chute is often swinging side to side to allow the trapped air to escape with such a light payload attached so close to the chute and attaching the payload further away may make it harder for the chute to do this. I don’t see the remains of the balloon flying around and tugging and/or hitting the chute affecting it much, but if the remains weigh as much, or much more, than your light payload they would certain increase the descent speed over what the speed with just the payload would be.
                 
                Barry VE6SBS
                 
                From: GPSL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Hojnowski kd2eat@... [GPSL]
                Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 11:55 AM
                To: GPSL Balloon Reflector
                Subject: [GPSL] Parachute positioning and balloon interference
                Hi Gang,

                I've done several launches where we observed the descent rate to be MUCH
                higher than the projections based on various parachute calculators.
                I've grown suspicious that the parachute's function is being severely
                hampered by the remains of the balloon flying around and tugging and/or
                hitting the chute on the way down.

                I've seen some mechanical means used to release the balloon when lift is
                removed, but we're flying very light (100g) payloads. I haven't seen
                anything that would work with something so light.

                Presently we're flying with the payload directly attached to the chute
                with short cords (maybe 18"), and the parachute then connected to the
                balloon by a much longer 10' long cord.

                Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated!
                Mike / KD2EAT



              • Mike Manes
                If the latex shards are interfering with the chute s performance, that will be evident in strings of latex fouling the shroud lines and/or canopy on recovery.
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 12, 2014
                  If the latex shards are interfering with the 'chute's performance,
                  that will be evident in strings of latex fouling the shroud lines
                  and/or canopy on recovery. The quantity of latex remaining attached
                  to the neck varies all over the map.

                  Prior to implementing the fast releases, EOSS would bring home
                  anything from just the neck all the way up to 6 lb of shards
                  from a 3000 gm (6.6 lb) balloon.

                  The fast releases have definitely sent PBC to charm school for us!

                  73 de Mike W5VSI

                  On 8/12/14 12:20, 'Barry Sloan' bs@... [GPSL] wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > First thing I’m wondering is whether your chute has an air dump opening
                  > at the top. If it doesn’t I’m guessing that the chute is often swinging
                  > side to side to allow the trapped air to escape with such a light
                  > payload attached so close to the chute and attaching the payload further
                  > away may make it harder for the chute to do this. I don’t see the
                  > remains of the balloon flying around and tugging and/or hitting the
                  > chute affecting it much, but if the remains weigh as much, or much more,
                  > than your light payload they would certain increase the descent speed
                  > over what the speed with just the payload would be.
                  >
                  > Barry VE6SBS
                  >
                  > *From:*GPSL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
                  > *Michael Hojnowski kd2eat@... [GPSL]
                  > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 12, 2014 11:55 AM
                  > *To:* GPSL Balloon Reflector
                  > *Subject:* [GPSL] Parachute positioning and balloon interference
                  >
                  > Hi Gang,
                  >
                  > I've done several launches where we observed the descent rate to be MUCH
                  > higher than the projections based on various parachute calculators.
                  > I've grown suspicious that the parachute's function is being severely
                  > hampered by the remains of the balloon flying around and tugging and/or
                  > hitting the chute on the way down.
                  >
                  > I've seen some mechanical means used to release the balloon when lift is
                  > removed, but we're flying very light (100g) payloads. I haven't seen
                  > anything that would work with something so light.
                  >
                  > Presently we're flying with the payload directly attached to the chute
                  > with short cords (maybe 18"), and the parachute then connected to the
                  > balloon by a much longer 10' long cord.
                  >
                  > Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated!
                  > Mike / KD2EAT
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Alan Adamson
                  Mike, I ve been talking with the other Mike (who originated the question). Is there any relationship or dimensional concerns that need to be taken into
                  Message 8 of 8 , Aug 12, 2014
                    Mike,


                    I've been talking with the other Mike (who originated the question).


                    Is there any relationship or dimensional concerns that need to be taken
                    into account. For a really light payload, it might be that I can 3d
                    print something to trial


                    - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/jaws.png was just a whack
                    at a basic design that I threw together this afternoon after looking at
                    your web information.


                    E.g. is there an amount of spring tension that you need, etc.?


                    Alan


                    On 8/12/2014 5:43 PM, Mike Manes mrmanes@... [GPSL] wrote:
                    > If the latex shards are interfering with the 'chute's performance,
                    > that will be evident in strings of latex fouling the shroud lines
                    > and/or canopy on recovery. The quantity of latex remaining attached
                    > to the neck varies all over the map.
                    >
                    > Prior to implementing the fast releases, EOSS would bring home
                    > anything from just the neck all the way up to 6 lb of shards
                    > from a 3000 gm (6.6 lb) balloon.
                    >
                    > The fast releases have definitely sent PBC to charm school for us!
                    >
                    > 73 de Mike W5VSI
                    >
                    > On 8/12/14 12:20, 'Barry Sloan' bs@... [GPSL] wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > First thing I’m wondering is whether your chute has an air dump opening
                    > > at the top. If it doesn’t I’m guessing that the chute is often swinging
                    > > side to side to allow the trapped air to escape with such a light
                    > > payload attached so close to the chute and attaching the payload further
                    > > away may make it harder for the chute to do this. I don’t see the
                    > > remains of the balloon flying around and tugging and/or hitting the
                    > > chute affecting it much, but if the remains weigh as much, or much more,
                    > > than your light payload they would certain increase the descent speed
                    > > over what the speed with just the payload would be.
                    > >
                    > > Barry VE6SBS
                    > >
                    > > *From:*GPSL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
                    > > *Michael Hojnowski kd2eat@... [GPSL]
                    > > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 12, 2014 11:55 AM
                    > > *To:* GPSL Balloon Reflector
                    > > *Subject:* [GPSL] Parachute positioning and balloon interference
                    > >
                    > > Hi Gang,
                    > >
                    > > I've done several launches where we observed the descent rate to be MUCH
                    > > higher than the projections based on various parachute calculators.
                    > > I've grown suspicious that the parachute's function is being severely
                    > > hampered by the remains of the balloon flying around and tugging and/or
                    > > hitting the chute on the way down.
                    > >
                    > > I've seen some mechanical means used to release the balloon when lift is
                    > > removed, but we're flying very light (100g) payloads. I haven't seen
                    > > anything that would work with something so light.
                    > >
                    > > Presently we're flying with the payload directly attached to the chute
                    > > with short cords (maybe 18"), and the parachute then connected to the
                    > > balloon by a much longer 10' long cord.
                    > >
                    > > Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated!
                    > > Mike / KD2EAT
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
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