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Re: [govtrack] Proposed new terms of data use

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  • Michael Dale
    Hi All, I also enjoyed the FC conference, and had some productive talks Josh around metavid data integrations :) In terms of data re-sharing ...you could
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 13, 2008
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      Hi All,

      I also enjoyed the FC conference, and had some productive talks Josh
      around metavid data integrations :)

      In terms of data re-sharing ...you could license the "transformed" data
      that govTrack makes available under cc-by-sa but creative commons
      license does not says much about ~how~ the transformations are re-made
      available.

      Its hard to quantify your desire to encourage re-usability but using
      shared keys seems like a good start. Maybe it would be more productive
      to profile "good" re-usage that easily returns things to the commons in
      a structured and easy-to-access way and "bad" re-usage that has all the
      output in flash swf with cryptic connections to the server ;). ie maybe
      focus on providing constructive advice to groups working in this space
      to maximize the commons and re usability of the data. ie provide a means
      of "querying the data with gov_track ID if the govtrack data is used"

      I will quickly profile data usage / re-usage on metavid.org ;)

      We had to scrape data from many sites to build the present semantic
      congress dataset since not all the sites make their enhancement to the
      data available in clean easy to reuse formats... I am sure all these
      sites want to share the data-sets but are simply limited by time and or
      limited resources...

      The good thing is as technologies like semantic wiki propagate.. it
      becomes really easy to write a scraper and then add in massive amounts
      of arbitrary structured data. Since you just have to edit a few wiki
      pages rather than modify SQL tables.

      But the real fun comes when you want to display and share the data ....
      If you look under the hood at metavid you see that all the "views" or
      pages are just "mashups" on the site itself. ie the
      http://metavid.org/wiki/Members_of_Congress page is just an inline
      semantic query using: http://tinyurl.com/3fubtd you could pretty easily
      make your own "members of congress" page that highlighted any given set
      of properties your interested in. Likewise people, bills and interest
      group pages work in a similar way.

      more info on metavid semantic queries here:
      http://metavid.org/wiki/Sample_Semantic_Queries_page

      It was easy for us to make all the enhancements of congress data
      instantly accessible to any site that we scraped because of the nature
      of the metavid platform. Ie govtrack can pull videos via gov_track id,
      and maplight if they wanted to could pull videos via maplight id etc.

      I imagine it would not be difficult for other platforms to offer
      accessing the data via the govtrack keys. I definitely echo Josh call
      for more congress data sites making data accessible via shared keys!
      Sunlight api can also help in this regard:
      http://services.sunlightlabs.com/api/

      P.S: We are presently re-launching metavid so everyone is encouraged to
      blog about if and provide feedback if they want.
      a blog post calling for people to blog about it / participate:
      http://metavid.org/blog/

      peace,
      michael



      Aaron Swartz wrote:
      > Hi Josh,
      >
      > Let me know if we at watchdog.net can do anything to be more
      > open/helpful/compliant with this. With each passing week I'm more
      > interested in collaborating with other groups and opening things up
      > more.
      >
      >
    • Fred Benenson
      Just to jump in -- CC-BY-SA requires the modified work to be released under the same CC license. This means, effectively, that you can change the format so
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 13, 2008
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        Just to jump in -- CC-BY-SA requires the modified work to be released under the same CC license. This means, effectively, that you can change the format so long as the resulting version is under the same license.

        But BY-SA may not be the best option, and we (I work for CC full time) discourage use of CC licenses for large data sets of questionable copyright status. Science Commons is working in this respect, on scientific data.

        The reason is because requiring attribution when data is used can be overly onerous for researchers (especially within scientific fields of study). It also becomes very difficult to track and provide attribution across multiple generations.

        My feeling is that Josh might be best served by simply offering (and perhaps predicating access to the data on) a request  that the data be used in this way, not a legal mandate.

        F
         

        On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 5:39 PM, Fred Benenson <fred.benenson@...> wrote:
        Just to jump in -- CC-BY-SA requires the modified work to be released under the same CC license. This means, effectively, that you can change the format so long as the resulting version is under the same license.

        But BY-SA may not be the best option, and we (I work for CC full time) discourage use of CC licenses for large data sets of questionable copyright status. Science Commons is working in this respect, on scientific data.

        The reason is because requiring attribution when data is used can be overly onerous for researchers (especially within scientific fields of study). It also becomes very difficult to track and provide attribution across multiple generations.

        My feeling is that Josh might be best served by simply offering (and perhaps predicating access to the data on) a request  that the data be used in this way, not a legal mandate.

        F

         



        On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Michael Dale <dale@...> wrote:

        Hi All,

        I also enjoyed the FC conference, and had some productive talks Josh
        around metavid data integrations :)

        In terms of data re-sharing ...you could license the "transformed" data
        that govTrack makes available under cc-by-sa but creative commons
        license does not says much about ~how~ the transformations are re-made
        available.

        Its hard to quantify your desire to encourage re-usability but using
        shared keys seems like a good start. Maybe it would be more productive
        to profile "good" re-usage that easily returns things to the commons in
        a structured and easy-to-access way and "bad" re-usage that has all the
        output in flash swf with cryptic connections to the server ;). ie maybe
        focus on providing constructive advice to groups working in this space
        to maximize the commons and re usability of the data. ie provide a means
        of "querying the data with gov_track ID if the govtrack data is used"

        I will quickly profile data usage / re-usage on metavid.org ;)

        We had to scrape data from many sites to build the present semantic
        congress dataset since not all the sites make their enhancement to the
        data available in clean easy to reuse formats... I am sure all these
        sites want to share the data-sets but are simply limited by time and or
        limited resources...

        The good thing is as technologies like semantic wiki propagate.. it
        becomes really easy to write a scraper and then add in massive amounts
        of arbitrary structured data. Since you just have to edit a few wiki
        pages rather than modify SQL tables.

        But the real fun comes when you want to display and share the data ....
        If you look under the hood at metavid you see that all the "views" or
        pages are just "mashups" on the site itself. ie the
        http://metavid.org/wiki/Members_of_Congress page is just an inline
        semantic query using: http://tinyurl.com/3fubtd you could pretty easily
        make your own "members of congress" page that highlighted any given set
        of properties your interested in. Likewise people, bills and interest
        group pages work in a similar way.

        more info on metavid semantic queries here:
        http://metavid.org/wiki/Sample_Semantic_Queries_page

        It was easy for us to make all the enhancements of congress data
        instantly accessible to any site that we scraped because of the nature
        of the metavid platform. Ie govtrack can pull videos via gov_track id,
        and maplight if they wanted to could pull videos via maplight id etc.

        I imagine it would not be difficult for other platforms to offer
        accessing the data via the govtrack keys. I definitely echo Josh call
        for more congress data sites making data accessible via shared keys!
        Sunlight api can also help in this regard:
        http://services.sunlightlabs.com/api/

        P.S: We are presently re-launching metavid so everyone is encouraged to
        blog about if and provide feedback if they want.
        a blog post calling for people to blog about it / participate:
        http://metavid.org/blog/

        peace,
        michael



        Aaron Swartz wrote:
        > Hi Josh,
        >
        > Let me know if we at watchdog.net can do anything to be more
        > open/helpful/compliant with this. With each passing week I'm more
        > interested in collaborating with other groups and opening things up
        > more.
        >
        >



      • Aaron Swartz
        Josh, who are the malefactors here? We can help you put a little pressure on them. I suspect just raising the issue with them publicly will help a great deal.
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 14, 2008
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          Josh, who are the malefactors here? We can help you put a little
          pressure on them. I suspect just raising the issue with them publicly
          will help a great deal.
        • Josh Tauberer
          ... Use XML instead of/in addition to JSON/SQL. Normalize names to IDs in the XML. Document what s in the files (http://watchdog.net/about/api is broken atm so
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 14, 2008
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            Aaron Swartz wrote:
            > Let me know if we at watchdog.net can do anything to be more
            > open/helpful/compliant with this. With each passing week I'm more
            > interested in collaborating with other groups and opening things up
            > more.

            Use XML instead of/in addition to JSON/SQL. Normalize names to IDs in
            the XML. Document what's in the files (http://watchdog.net/about/api is
            broken atm so I don't know what's there).

            > Josh, who are the malefactors here? We can help you put a little
            > pressure on them. I suspect just raising the issue with them publicly
            > will help a great deal.

            I don't want to go down that path. No one is doing anything particularly
            egregious or at all malicious.

            --
            - Josh Tauberer
            - GovTrack.us

            http://razor.occams.info

            "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
            falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
            Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
          • Aaron Swartz
            ... The dumps are really meant to be TSV rather than SQL. And our webpages all speak RDF/XML. But I m probably not going to do XML dumps because I hate the
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 14, 2008
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              > Use XML instead of/in addition to JSON/SQL.

              The dumps are really meant to be TSV rather than SQL. And our webpages
              all speak RDF/XML. But I'm probably not going to do XML dumps because
              I hate the format with a white-hot passion and I fail to see the
              point. Surely TSV is just as easy to parse.

              > Normalize names to IDs in the XML.

              This is true in the TSV.

              > Document what's in the files (http://watchdog.net/about/api is
              > broken atm so I don't know what's there).

              Sorry, fixed. There's some docs in /data now; let me know what you
              think is missing.
            • Ilan Rabinovitch
              ... Josh, At the moment GeekPAC is using your data by parsing the feeds via rsync and putting them into a SQL database. I m still doing a little clean up,
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 14, 2008
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                Josh Tauberer wrote:
                >
                > Use XML instead of/in addition to JSON/SQL. Normalize names to IDs in
                > the XML. Document what's in the files (http://watchdog.net/about/api is
                > broken atm so I don't know what's there).
                >
                >
                Josh,

                At the moment GeekPAC is using your data by parsing the feeds via rsync
                and putting them into a SQL database. I'm still doing a little clean
                up, but I do plan to post both the database dumps, as well as the Deki
                extensions we've written that perform the SQL queries we display. Does
                that fall in line with what you were thinking for acceptable use?

                We are not currently adding anything new to the data so reoutputing to
                XML seems a bit redundant. The reason we prefer SQL is that its easier
                for us to do relational queries on SQL than XML.

                Regards,

                Ilan
              • Josh Tauberer
                ... Besides what Fred posted (thanks Fred), I m not sure I can even assert copyright over the data --- it s a database, there s basically no creative
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 14, 2008
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                  Michael Dale wrote:
                  > In terms of data re-sharing ...you could license the "transformed" data
                  > that govTrack makes available under cc-by-sa but creative commons
                  > license does not says much about ~how~ the transformations are re-made
                  > available.

                  Besides what Fred posted (thanks Fred), I'm not sure I can even assert
                  copyright over the data --- it's a database, there's basically no
                  creative difference from the public domain original. I wouldn't really
                  want to anyway, for the same reason I probably wouldn't create real TOS,
                  since I do think the data should be free.

                  > focus on providing constructive advice to groups working in this space
                  > to maximize the commons and re usability of the data. ie provide a means
                  > of "querying the data with gov_track ID if the govtrack data is used"

                  Sure, your feedback and the other comments have been instructive for
                  figuring out that angle.

                  > I will quickly profile data usage / re-usage on metavid.org ;)

                  I didn't have MetaVid in mind. :) I would, however, love to see database
                  dumps (in a useful format) rather than having to query for everything.

                  (I hope I'm the only one who hates queries and APIs as a primary means
                  of data access....)

                  --
                  - Josh Tauberer
                  - GovTrack.us

                  http://razor.occams.info

                  "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
                  falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
                  Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
                • Josh Tauberer
                  ... In that case you have nothing to worry about. :) -- - Josh Tauberer - GovTrack.us http://razor.occams.info Yields falsehood when preceded by its
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 14, 2008
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                    Ilan Rabinovitch wrote:
                    > Josh Tauberer wrote:
                    >> Use XML instead of/in addition to JSON/SQL. Normalize names to IDs in
                    >> the XML. Document what's in the files (http://watchdog.net/about/api is
                    >> broken atm so I don't know what's there).
                    >>
                    >>
                    > Josh,
                    >
                    > At the moment GeekPAC is using your data by parsing the feeds via rsync
                    > and putting them into a SQL database. I'm still doing a little clean
                    > up, but I do plan to post both the database dumps, as well as the Deki
                    > extensions we've written that perform the SQL queries we display. Does
                    > that fall in line with what you were thinking for acceptable use?
                    >
                    > We are not currently adding anything new to the data so reoutputing to
                    > XML seems a bit redundant.

                    In that case you have nothing to worry about. :)

                    --
                    - Josh Tauberer
                    - GovTrack.us

                    http://razor.occams.info

                    "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
                    falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
                    Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
                  • David Moore
                    Hi everyone, David with OpenCongress here. Definitely count us in on whatever community standards are agreed upon, we re happy to contribute. More details
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 14, 2008
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                      Hi everyone, David with OpenCongress here. Definitely count us in on
                      whatever community standards are agreed upon, we're happy to contribute.
                      More details below, think that Josh is right to bring it up.

                      As a foundation, our site code is open-source under the GPL and we offer
                      a host of RSS feeds & widgets & sharing tools to push info out.

                      We've always wanted to build an open API, but to be honest, given our
                      small staff & limited programming time, it wasn't as much of a priority
                      as major feature development.

                      Of course, that hasn't stopped us from starting work on a totally open
                      API on the back burner, making all data on OC & created by the OC user
                      community available. We've looped in a volunteer programmer to work on
                      the project with us in his spare time.

                      The OpenCongress API should do the trick as far as putting more data
                      from our corner of the transparency world on the communal table. Overall
                      goal is to provide programmers w/ an API that they could access and get
                      the bills associated with a given issue area, their status, and
                      blogs/commentary/social wisdom about them. We'll be able to provide
                      developers with at least the following data for non-commercial use:

                      a) Aggregated news & blog coverage of bills, Senators, and
                      Representatives, including those ranked "most useful"

                      b) Counts and locations of users tracking bills, Members, committees,
                      issues, etc.

                      c) User comments, incl. those rated "most useful", i.e. filtered up

                      d) User approval ratings for Members

                      e) User votes "aye" or "nay" on bills sitewide

                      f) Users also tracking related bills, issues, Members (connections)

                      g) Users who support/oppose also support/oppose related bills & Members

                      h) Users's OC friend relationships -- in their district, state, and
                      nationwide

                      i) Coming soon, more personally bookmarked content from users of MyOC

                      Coming from this, a few sample use cases:

                      i. Political bloggers will be able to more easily access user opinion on
                      bills & issues & Members in a specific Congressional district, e.g., "In
                      the NY-12 Congressional District, public opinion is running strongly
                      against this bill, with 147 out of 195 users opposing it. These users
                      are also opposing this related bill, and have given their Rep an
                      approval rating of only 29%, etc."

                      ii. Issue-based groups will be able to create highly customizable
                      widgets identifying the most significant bills, votes, related issue
                      areas, and Members relating to them. Groups will be able to easily
                      display & re-publish the news coverage, blog coverage, and user comments
                      rated "most helpful" on their issue by OC users.

                      iii. With future planned feature development, users will be able to
                      interact with each other in new ways, and contribute analysis of bills &
                      votes on the site -- this too will be made available to programmers
                      looking to keep their communities in touch with issue areas they care
                      about. All the social actions & opinions taking place on OC will be
                      available through the API.

                      If you're intersted in helping us build the API, we'd love volunteer
                      time -- send me an email at drm@... -- or if you have
                      questions, feel free to drop me a line as well. I don't really have a
                      pinpoint estimate of when the API will be finished at its current rate,
                      given other development work underway, but it should be ready before the
                      start of the next Congress in January '09, and hopefully much before then.

                      Input welcome on all the above, and volunteer help greatly appreciated,
                      Thanks,
                      -David

                      --
                      David Moore
                      c: (917) 753-3462
                      www.opencongress.org
                    • Josh Tauberer
                      Bah! APIs! The next time someone says API I m gonna jump out a window. I ve got a window right here. It s open. I m ready. The one case an API makes sense as a
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 14, 2008
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                        Bah! APIs! The next time someone says API I'm gonna jump out a window.
                        I've got a window right here. It's open. I'm ready.

                        The one case an API makes sense as a primary means of data access is
                        when the data is so large and inseparable that it cannot be reasonably
                        distributed in files. It would have to be, say, at least several hundred
                        megabytes if not a few gigabytes for that to be the case --- and even
                        then one would have to justify not making use of resources like
                        public.resource.org to host it.

                        Can you imagine the outrage if the FEC decided to make its data
                        available only via an API with an API key that was limited to some fixed
                        number of queries per day? What's the first thing that would happen?
                        People (people like Carl Malamud right?) would reconstruct the database
                        and make it available via FTP.

                        Besides the case where the data is just too big, if the data is not
                        available in a flat file, it is IMO simply not open data, and as far as
                        what I am talking about on this thread, it "doesn't count".

                        (APIs take time to program correctly. Yes. Insufficient resources =
                        acceptable reason not to have an API. Database dumps do not take serious
                        effort.)

                        --
                        - Josh Tauberer
                        - GovTrack.us

                        http://razor.occams.info

                        "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
                        falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
                        Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)


                        David Moore wrote:
                        > Hi everyone, David with OpenCongress here. Definitely count us in on
                        > whatever community standards are agreed upon, we're happy to contribute.
                        > More details below, think that Josh is right to bring it up.
                        >
                        > As a foundation, our site code is open-source under the GPL and we offer
                        > a host of RSS feeds & widgets & sharing tools to push info out.
                        >
                        > We've always wanted to build an open API, but to be honest, given our
                        > small staff & limited programming time, it wasn't as much of a priority
                        > as major feature development.
                        >
                        > Of course, that hasn't stopped us from starting work on a totally open
                        > API on the back burner, making all data on OC & created by the OC user
                        > community available. We've looped in a volunteer programmer to work on
                        > the project with us in his spare time.
                        >
                        > The OpenCongress API should do the trick as far as putting more data
                        > from our corner of the transparency world on the communal table. Overall
                        > goal is to provide programmers w/ an API that they could access and get
                        > the bills associated with a given issue area, their status, and
                        > blogs/commentary/social wisdom about them. We'll be able to provide
                        > developers with at least the following data for non-commercial use:
                        >
                        > a) Aggregated news & blog coverage of bills, Senators, and
                        > Representatives, including those ranked "most useful"
                        >
                        > b) Counts and locations of users tracking bills, Members, committees,
                        > issues, etc.
                        >
                        > c) User comments, incl. those rated "most useful", i.e. filtered up
                        >
                        > d) User approval ratings for Members
                        >
                        > e) User votes "aye" or "nay" on bills sitewide
                        >
                        > f) Users also tracking related bills, issues, Members (connections)
                        >
                        > g) Users who support/oppose also support/oppose related bills & Members
                        >
                        > h) Users's OC friend relationships -- in their district, state, and
                        > nationwide
                        >
                        > i) Coming soon, more personally bookmarked content from users of MyOC
                        >
                        > Coming from this, a few sample use cases:
                        >
                        > i. Political bloggers will be able to more easily access user opinion on
                        > bills & issues & Members in a specific Congressional district, e.g., "In
                        > the NY-12 Congressional District, public opinion is running strongly
                        > against this bill, with 147 out of 195 users opposing it. These users
                        > are also opposing this related bill, and have given their Rep an
                        > approval rating of only 29%, etc."
                        >
                        > ii. Issue-based groups will be able to create highly customizable
                        > widgets identifying the most significant bills, votes, related issue
                        > areas, and Members relating to them. Groups will be able to easily
                        > display & re-publish the news coverage, blog coverage, and user comments
                        > rated "most helpful" on their issue by OC users.
                        >
                        > iii. With future planned feature development, users will be able to
                        > interact with each other in new ways, and contribute analysis of bills &
                        > votes on the site -- this too will be made available to programmers
                        > looking to keep their communities in touch with issue areas they care
                        > about. All the social actions & opinions taking place on OC will be
                        > available through the API.
                        >
                        > If you're intersted in helping us build the API, we'd love volunteer
                        > time -- send me an email at drm@... -- or if you have
                        > questions, feel free to drop me a line as well. I don't really have a
                        > pinpoint estimate of when the API will be finished at its current rate,
                        > given other development work underway, but it should be ready before the
                        > start of the next Congress in January '09, and hopefully much before then.
                        >
                        > Input welcome on all the above, and volunteer help greatly appreciated,
                        > Thanks,
                        > -David
                        >
                      • aronpilhofer
                        ... Let s hope it s a low floor, because I wanted to let folks know we ve just released our campaign finance API. Not necessarily of great use to this group,
                        Message 11 of 15 , Oct 15, 2008
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                          > Bah! APIs! The next time someone says API I'm gonna jump out a window.

                          Let's hope it's a low floor, because I wanted to let folks know we've
                          just released our campaign finance API. Not necessarily of great use
                          to this group, but who knows.

                          http://developer.nytimes.com/docs/campaign_finance_api

                          Incidentally, I agree that API's are a rather crappy way of
                          distributing data en toto, but who is arguing this as an either/or?
                          There is significant value in both.

                          First, you mention how horrible it would be should the FEC create an
                          API. But not everyone has the technical know-how to handle, what, 12?
                          13? million FEC records, much less make sense of the arcane poorly
                          documented system they use to categorize and code individual records.
                          If you don't know what you are doing, you can end up completely
                          shooting yourself in the foot.

                          And don't even get me started on the electronic filings, which is what
                          we are using for our own API. The process of massaging those data into
                          something meaningful is far far more complicated than it should be.
                          (Like, who's the genius who decided not to require campaigns to
                          disclose their aggregate amount of unitemized donors?)

                          So, why should you be required to become a campaign finance expert in
                          order to use the data? That's an artificial and unnecessary barrier.

                          Second, not everyone wants all 8 kazillion records. They may only care
                          about specific donors, or specific candidates, or specific localities.
                          A well-written API (ours is a work in progress, so, don't judge it
                          just yet) is another way of lowering the barrier of entry.

                          I agree that the term and the concept is getting a bit overused. But
                          that isn't a compelling reason NOT to make access to data easier for
                          people.

                          >Again, I'm not actually enacting this policy over my data.

                          On the specific point that started this thread, it might be a good
                          time to gently remind you that this is not your data. It's the
                          public's data, which you (and god bless you for having done it) have
                          taken the time and effort to make available in a rational format for
                          the betterment of all.

                          It is a lesson I think we all learned on the playground: sharing is
                          not always reciprocal. There are going to be people out there who
                          take, and don't give back. I understand your frustration, but I don't
                          think adding some new requirement is going to help all that much, and
                          may actually end up hurting more than anything else.

                          My 2 cents,
                          Aron
                        • Josh Tauberer
                          ... Well, look, I wasn t making a statement about APIs in general. I was responding to a response to my statement about contributing to the commons, and I was
                          Message 12 of 15 , Oct 15, 2008
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                            aronpilhofer wrote:
                            > Incidentally, I agree that API's are a rather crappy way of
                            > distributing data en toto, but who is arguing this as an either/or?
                            > There is significant value in both.

                            Well, look, I wasn't making a statement about APIs in general.

                            I was responding to a response to my statement about contributing to the
                            commons, and I was saying that an API doesn't contribute the data to the
                            commons.

                            In the case of the Times's FEC API, the data is already available in
                            bulk from the FEC. You're providing an additional service to make things
                            easier, and I say that is only a good thing. You're also a commercial
                            enterprise, with different goals, and I meant to only be addressing the
                            strictly nonprofit/transparency world, though I know I didn't say it.

                            > On the specific point that started this thread, it might be a good
                            > time to gently remind you that this is not your data.

                            For all the time I put into it, I think I get a little say in how it is
                            used (if you access my server to get it). I have no moral obligation to
                            provide the data to everyone. At worst it would be hypocritical to start
                            adding restrictions when I talk about openness, which is why I don't
                            actually have any.

                            And the irony is not past me that if I actually add a restriction,
                            someone could fork the project.

                            > There are going to be people out there who
                            > take, and don't give back.

                            But that doesn't mean I shouldn't have an expectation about what they
                            *ought* to be doing. The fact that someone isn't contributing data that
                            they have back doesn't mean I stop asking.

                            --
                            - Josh Tauberer
                            - GovTrack.us

                            http://razor.occams.info

                            "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
                            falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
                            Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
                          • aronpilhofer
                            ... Fair enough. I move to strike my statement from the record. ... I guess that depends on what restrictions you do decide to slap on it, if any. I m not
                            Message 13 of 15 , Oct 15, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              > Well, look, I wasn't making a statement about APIs in general.

                              Fair enough. I move to strike my statement from the record.

                              > For all the time I put into it, I think I get a little say in how it >is

                              I guess that depends on what restrictions you do decide to slap on it,
                              if any. I'm not telling you anything you don't know -- but that's part
                              of the deal when you decide to open things up. People take and don't
                              play nice. It sucks, but you can't really have it both ways.

                              >The fact that someone isn't contributing data >that
                              > they have back doesn't mean I stop asking.

                              No one said that. But putting some kind of license on the data to
                              enforce it, that's another matter.
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