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RE: [govtrack] I need help!

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  • Pierre Demester
    there ya go. I knew there would be at least one. Pierre _____ From: govtrack@yahoogroups.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek Willis Sent:
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
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      there ya go. I knew there would be at least one.
       
      Pierre
       


      From: govtrack@yahoogroups.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek Willis
      Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 10:19 AM
      To: govtrack@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!

      Please, please, not cold fusion. -1 (or as many as I can muster).

      On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Pierre Demester <pierre@.... us> wrote:

      > Coldfusion is similar to ASP (Microsoft) and PHP (open source)...
      in that it
      > is a scripting language.
      >
      > PHP has Object
      Orientation (OO) - whereas Coldfusion (CF) (developed
      > (Jeremy) Allaire
      and Ben Forta, then sold to Macromedia, bought by Adobe)
      > resembles
      HTML.
      >
      > I, unfortunately have not had the opportunity (not
      currently cost effective
      > to upgrade) to use CF 8 - which I think
      includes OO... but I might be
      > incorrect.
      >
      > If you know
      HTML - you can learn CF fairly quickly.
      > -- to fully utilize PHP... you
      need an understanding of OO.. which is a
      > barrier that most people cannot
      cross.
      > --- therefore, most PHP installs are not fully utilized. The
      "power is
      > there"... the knowledge lacks.
      >
      > Another major
      difference is that PHP is free.
      > -- CF starts @ $700... $2500 if you need
      the Enterprise edition. Most people
      > don't.
      >
      > My take - you
      get what you pay for, Free is nice. There's a price for
      >
      Quality.
      >
      > A third obstable is the installation base. Because PHP
      is free - there are
      > literally thousands (upon thousands) of companies
      who "toss in" PHP for
      > free.
      > -- PHP is part of the standard linux
      install. All of my servers have PHP - I
      > rarely use it.
      >
      >
      Because CF has a cost... the number of companies providing hosting services
      > drops dramatically.
      > - most companies who switch to
      CF... provide their own hosting services
      >
      > It's the same issues
      with databases
      > -- MySQL (free / open source / hosted by 1000's upon
      1000's)
      > -- as compared to Microsoft SQL Server (very expensive /
      professional
      > results).
      >
      > Many large entities use CF...
      Amazon.com, EBay.com, Senate.gov, Jaguar (the
      > car manufacturer) ...
      literally too many to list.
      > - the number of PHP / MySql installations
      are uncountable.
      >
      > I think I've even come a Whitehouse.gov section
      that was CF based.
      > -- some entities develop their entire site with CF -
      others only develop a
      > portion.
      >
      > CF works with Sun
      Solaris, Windows IIS, and Linux.
      >
      >
      Pierre
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ____________ _________ _________ __
      > From:
      href="mailto:govtrack%40yahoogroups.com">govtrack@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf
      > Of Josh Tauberer
      > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:33
      AM
      > To:
      href="mailto:govtrack%40yahoogroups.com">govtrack@yahoogroup s.com
      >
      Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!
      >
      > Pierre Demester
      wrote:
      >> any thoughts of using Coldfusion ?
      >
      > I actually
      don't know the first thing about ColdFusion.
      >
      > --
      > - Josh
      Tauberer
      > - GovTrack.us
      >
      >
      href="http://razor.occams.info">http://razor. occams.info
      >
      >
      "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
      > falsehood when
      preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
      > Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher,
      Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
      >
      >

      --
      --
      Derek Willis
      dwillis@gmail. com
      http://www.thescoop .org/docs/

    • Mark Fredrickson
      I call bikeshed on this discussion[1]. Code is gold: if you can write something in Coldfusion, do so. If you can write it in something else, do so. Best of
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
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        I call "bikeshed" on this discussion[1]. Code is gold: if you can write something in Coldfusion, do so. If you can write it in something else, do so.

        Best of luck,
        -M


        On Jul 2, 2008, at 9:19 AM, Derek Willis wrote:

        Please, please, not cold fusion. -1 (or as many as I can muster).

        On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Pierre Demester <pierre@.... us> wrote:
        > Coldfusion is similar to ASP (Microsoft) and PHP (open source)... in that it
        > is a scripting language.
        >
        > PHP has Object Orientation (OO) - whereas Coldfusion (CF) (developed
        > (Jeremy) Allaire and Ben Forta, then sold to Macromedia, bought by Adobe)
        > resembles HTML.
        >
        > I, unfortunately have not had the opportunity (not currently cost effective
        > to upgrade) to use CF 8 - which I think includes OO... but I might be
        > incorrect.
        >
        > If you know HTML - you can learn CF fairly quickly.
        > -- to fully utilize PHP... you need an understanding of OO.. which is a
        > barrier that most people cannot cross.
        > --- therefore, most PHP installs are not fully utilized. The "power is
        > there"... the knowledge lacks.
        >
        > Another major difference is that PHP is free.
        > -- CF starts @ $700... $2500 if you need the Enterprise edition. Most people
        > don't.
        >
        > My take - you get what you pay for, Free is nice. There's a price for
        > Quality.
        >
        > A third obstable is the installation base. Because PHP is free - there are
        > literally thousands (upon thousands) of companies who "toss in" PHP for
        > free.
        > -- PHP is part of the standard linux install. All of my servers have PHP - I
        > rarely use it.
        >
        > Because CF has a cost... the number of companies providing hosting services
        > drops dramatically.
        > - most companies who switch to CF... provide their own hosting services
        >
        > It's the same issues with databases
        > -- MySQL (free / open source / hosted by 1000's upon 1000's)
        > -- as compared to Microsoft SQL Server (very expensive / professional
        > results).
        >
        > Many large entities use CF... Amazon.com, EBay.com, Senate.gov, Jaguar (the
        > car manufacturer) ... literally too many to list.
        > - the number of PHP / MySql installations are uncountable.
        >
        > I think I've even come a Whitehouse.gov section that was CF based.
        > -- some entities develop their entire site with CF - others only develop a
        > portion.
        >
        > CF works with Sun Solaris, Windows IIS, and Linux.
        >
        > Pierre
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ____________ _________ _________ __
        > From: govtrack@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf
        > Of Josh Tauberer
        > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:33 AM
        > To: govtrack@yahoogroup s.com
        > Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!
        >
        > Pierre Demester wrote:
        >> any thoughts of using Coldfusion ?
        >
        > I actually don't know the first thing about ColdFusion.
        >
        > --
        > - Josh Tauberer
        > - GovTrack.us
        >
        > http://razor. occams.info
        >
        > "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
        > falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
        > Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
        >
        > 

        -- 
        --
        Derek Willis
        dwillis@gmail. com
        http://www.thescoop .org/docs/


      • Neil Rest
        Code has to be maintained. When a development project goes live, less than half its full life-cycle cost has been spent; the rest is modification. Personally,
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
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          Code has to be maintained.
          When a development project goes live, less than half its full
          life-cycle cost has been spent; the rest is modification.
          Personally, I'm thumbs up on PHP (objects available, not mandatory,
          btw), and thumbs down on ColdFusion (proprietary add-on to a graphics
          package), but regardless, one of the first rules of good code is Make
          it readable, Make it modifiable.
          It might run like gold and still be bad code.


          At 09:27 AM 7/2/2008, Mark Fredrickson <mark.m.fredrickson@...> wrote:
          >I call "bikeshed" on this discussion[1]. Code is gold: if you can
          >write something in Coldfusion, do so. If you can write it in
          >something else, do so.
          >
          >Best of luck,
          >-M
          >
          >[1] <http://www.bikeshed.com/>http://www.bikeshed.com/ and
          ><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed
          >
          >On Jul 2, 2008, at 9:19 AM, Derek Willis wrote:
          >
          >>Please, please, not cold fusion. -1 (or as many as I can muster).
          >>
          >>On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Pierre Demester
          >><<mailto:pierre%40in.ternet.us>pierre@...! .us> wrote:
          >> > Coldfusion is similar to ASP (Microsoft) and PHP (open
          >> source)... in that it
          >> > is a scripting language.
          >> >
          >> > PHP has Object Orientation (OO) - whereas Coldfusion (CF) (developed
          >> > (Jeremy) Allaire and Ben Forta, then sold to Macromedia, bought by Adobe)
          >> > resembles HTML.


          Neil
          --
          NeilRest@...

          Plato had defined the human being as an animal, biped and
          featherless, and was applauded. Diogenes plucked a fowl and brought
          it into the lecture-room with the words, 'Here is Plato's human
          being.' In consequence of which there was added to the definition,
          'having broad nails'.
        • Pierre Demester
          i agree Pierre _____ From: govtrack@yahoogroups.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Fredrickson Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 10:27 AM To:
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
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            i agree
             
            Pierre
             


            From: govtrack@yahoogroups.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Fredrickson
            Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 10:27 AM
            To: govtrack@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!

            I call "bikeshed" on this discussion[1] . Code is gold: if you can write something in Coldfusion, do so. If you can write it in something else, do so.


            Best of luck,
            -M


            On Jul 2, 2008, at 9:19 AM, Derek Willis wrote:

            Please, please, not cold fusion. -1 (or as many as I can muster).

            On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Pierre Demester <pierre@.... us> wrote:
            > Coldfusion is similar to ASP (Microsoft) and PHP (open source)... in that it
            > is a scripting language.
            >
            > PHP has Object Orientation (OO) - whereas Coldfusion (CF) (developed
            > (Jeremy) Allaire and Ben Forta, then sold to Macromedia, bought by Adobe)
            > resembles HTML.
            >
            > I, unfortunately have not had the opportunity (not currently cost effective
            > to upgrade) to use CF 8 - which I think includes OO... but I might be
            > incorrect.
            >
            > If you know HTML - you can learn CF fairly quickly.
            > -- to fully utilize PHP... you need an understanding of OO.. which is a
            > barrier that most people cannot cross.
            > --- therefore, most PHP installs are not fully utilized. The "power is
            > there"... the knowledge lacks.
            >
            > Another major difference is that PHP is free.
            > -- CF starts @ $700... $2500 if you need the Enterprise edition. Most people
            > don't.
            >
            > My take - you get what you pay for, Free is nice. There's a price for
            > Quality.
            >
            > A third obstable is the installation base. Because PHP is free - there are
            > literally thousands (upon thousands) of companies who "toss in" PHP for
            > free.
            > -- PHP is part of the standard linux install. All of my servers have PHP - I
            > rarely use it.
            >
            > Because CF has a cost... the number of companies providing hosting services
            > drops dramatically.
            > - most companies who switch to CF... provide their own hosting services
            >
            > It's the same issues with databases
            > -- MySQL (free / open source / hosted by 1000's upon 1000's)
            > -- as compared to Microsoft SQL Server (very expensive / professional
            > results).
            >
            > Many large entities use CF... Amazon.com, EBay.com, Senate.gov, Jaguar (the
            > car manufacturer) ... literally too many to list.
            > - the number of PHP / MySql installations are uncountable.
            >
            > I think I've even come a Whitehouse.gov section that was CF based.
            > -- some entities develop their entire site with CF - others only develop a
            > portion.
            >
            > CF works with Sun Solaris, Windows IIS, and Linux.
            >
            > Pierre
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ____________ _________ _________ __
            > From: govtrack@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf
            > Of Josh Tauberer
            > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:33 AM
            > To: govtrack@yahoogroup s.com
            > Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!
            >
            > Pierre Demester wrote:
            >> any thoughts of using Coldfusion ?
            >
            > I actually don't know the first thing about ColdFusion.
            >
            > --
            > - Josh Tauberer
            > - GovTrack.us
            >
            > http://razor. occams.info
            >
            > "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
            > falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
            > Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
            >
            > 

            -- 
            --
            Derek Willis
            dwillis@gmail. com
            http://www.thescoop .org/docs/


          • Dale Moore
            Is c#, .NET or MONO an option?
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
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              Is c#, .NET or MONO an option?

            • Jeremy Dunck
              ... I use Perl. If I were to start over again today I d probably use Python. But, to the extent anyone wants to contribute, I would prefer Perl so they could
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
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                On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Dale Moore <DaleEMoore@...> wrote:
                > Is c#, .NET or MONO an option?
                >

                In case you didn't see Josh's prior response, quoting:

                > What is your preferred language for the scripts you write to manipulate
                > the bill text?

                I use Perl. If I were to start over again today I'd probably use Python.
                But, to the extent anyone wants to contribute, I would prefer Perl so
                they could reuse my existing routines, but I would gladly accept Python
                and maybe other languages.
              • Pierre Demester
                I m a little confused - Coldfusion (proprietary add-on to a graphic package) ??? Are you saying Coldfusion is a graphic application ? ... As for PHP - it s not
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
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                  I'm a little confused
                  - Coldfusion (proprietary add-on to a graphic package) ???
                   
                  Are you saying Coldfusion is a graphic application ?
                   
                  -----------------------------------
                   
                  As for PHP - it's not a bad language - like any language... it has it's benefits and drawbacks.
                   
                  In my own opinion - proprietary is not always a bad choice. Most of the application we develop and have developed - have been for proprietary purposes.
                   
                  The scale and use of our applications are always a large consideration when reviewing the range of choices (development languages) available.
                   
                  Our actual preferred language is C++... though not very useful as web language - it suffices well for backend development.
                   
                  We primarily use it for real-time interaction.
                   
                  Pierre
                   


                  From: govtrack@yahoogroups.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Neil Rest
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 11:03 AM
                  To: govtrack@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!

                  Code has to be maintained.
                  When a development project goes live, less than half its full
                  life-cycle cost has been spent; the rest is modification.
                  Personally, I'm thumbs up on PHP (objects available, not mandatory,
                  btw), and thumbs down on ColdFusion (proprietary add-on to a graphics
                  package), but regardless, one of the first rules of good code is Make
                  it readable, Make it modifiable.
                  It might run like gold and still be bad code.

                  At 09:27 AM 7/2/2008, Mark Fredrickson <mark.m.fredrickson@ gmail.com> wrote:

                  >I call "bikeshed" on this discussion[1] . Code is gold: if you
                  can
                  >write something in Coldfusion, do so. If you can write it in
                  >something else, do so.
                  >
                  >Best of
                  luck,
                  >-M
                  >
                  >[1] <
                  href="http://www.bikeshed.com/">http://www.bikeshed .com/>http://www.bikeshed .com/ and
                  ><
                  href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed">http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Color_of_ the_bikeshed>http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Color_of_ the_bikeshed
                  >
                  >On
                  Jul 2, 2008, at 9:19 AM, Derek Willis wrote:
                  >
                  >>Please, please,
                  not cold fusion. -1 (or as many as I can muster).
                  >>
                  >>On Wed,
                  Jul 2, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Pierre Demester
                  >><<mailto:pierre% 40in.ternet. us>
                  href="mailto:pierre%40in.ternet">pierre@...! .us> wrote:
                  >> > Coldfusion is similar to ASP (Microsoft) and PHP (open
                  >> source)... in that it
                  >> > is a scripting
                  language.
                  >> >
                  >> > PHP has Object Orientation (OO) -
                  whereas Coldfusion (CF) (developed
                  >> > (Jeremy) Allaire and Ben
                  Forta, then sold to Macromedia, bought by Adobe)
                  >> > resembles
                  HTML.

                  Neil
                  --
                  NeilRest@rcn. com

                  Plato had defined the human being as an animal, biped and
                  featherless, and was applauded. Diogenes plucked a fowl and brought
                  it into the lecture-room with the words, 'Here is Plato's human
                  being.' In consequence of which there was added to the definition,
                  'having broad nails'.

                • Josh Tauberer
                  ... Okay, okay, let s not have this list turn into a discussion about programming languages. The priority should be finding a *civic project* to work on, not
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
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                    Pierre Demester wrote:
                    > I'm a little confused
                    > - Coldfusion (proprietary add-on to a graphic package) ???

                    Okay, okay, let's not have this list turn into a discussion about
                    programming languages.

                    The priority should be finding a *civic project* to work on, not what
                    language to use for the project. Project first, language second.

                    Josh
                  • Gabe Hamilton
                    Hi Josh, I have some availability to work on GovTrack over the next few months. My interest is in state legislation, however I m happy to start with some of
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 3, 2008
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                      Hi Josh,
                          I have some availability to work on GovTrack over the next few months.  My interest is in state legislation, however I'm happy to start with some of the higher priority items.

                      My question is, would it make sense to start a govtrack-development group?  Obviously we don't want to debate programming languages, but there  are probably some architectural questions that will inspire just as much traffic.

                      Some examples of things that could be discussed in a new group:
                        Since GovTrack is in .NET and Perl, is there a way for PHP/Python/Ada programmers to contribute?
                        Should GovTrack use a DB as well as XML?
                        Anyone know how X works?
                        I get error Y when running piece Z of govtrack, anyone know why?

                      I think Yahoo Groups will do polls, do you want to create a poll for whether a development group is needed?

                      -Gabe


                      Gabe Hamilton



                      On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Josh Tauberer <tauberer@...> wrote:

                      Hi guys.

                      With the recent discussion about writing bills on a wiki, I know there
                      are people here with good technical skills! So I'm writing my periodical
                      pitch to get some help with GovTrack. If you want to earn some money
                      helping GovTrack, that might also be possible to arrange.

                      I've been expanding my list of project ideas here:
                      http://wiki.govtrack.us/index.php/Projects

                      Here are a few:
                      - Display on a bill page a list of sections of the U.S. Code that would
                      be modified, by looking for references in the bill text.
                      - Researching what the different types of votes are (like 'motion to
                      recommit with instructions') and adding explanatory text to the site.
                      - Tagging bills (crowd-sourcing)
                      - Make the website fully compliant with accessibility standards

                      Need I say that GovTrack is quite popular and your contributions will
                      benefit thousands of people each day? :)

                      --
                      - Josh Tauberer
                      - GovTrack.us

                      http://razor.occams.info

                      "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
                      falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
                      Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)


                    • Josh Tauberer
                      ... Hey, Gabe. Glad to hear you could help out. Don t flake out on me now. :) ... I think when the time comes we ll deal with it then. (Any lurkers that have
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 3, 2008
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                        Gabe Hamilton wrote:
                        > Hi Josh,
                        > I have some availability to work on GovTrack over the next few
                        > months. My interest is in state legislation, however I'm happy to start
                        > with some of the higher priority items.

                        Hey, Gabe.

                        Glad to hear you could help out. Don't flake out on me now. :)

                        > My question is, would it make sense to start a govtrack-development
                        > group? Obviously we don't want to debate programming languages, but
                        > there are probably some architectural questions that will inspire just
                        > as much traffic.

                        I think when the time comes we'll deal with it then.

                        (Any lurkers that have an opinion on what they'd like to receive on this
                        list are welcome to email me off list with opinions.)

                        Josh
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