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Re: [govtrack] I need help!

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  • Harvey Frey
    Josh: I did something like this with the USA Patriot Act, which appeared to purposely be written in such a way as to hide what was actually being done by not
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 29, 2008
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      Josh:
       
          I did something like this with the USA Patriot Act, which appeared to purposely be written in such a way as to hide what was actually being done by not giving the code text as changed, but just saying things like "Insert "not" into the second sentence of section B(3)(c) of xx USC yy", or even worse, referencing the Public Law rather than the USC. (It often took a lot of research just to find the text being amended.)
       
          That required me to have my own copy of the bill text into which I could insert html links to any referenced law as well as self-references. That meant that the entire thing was obsolete as soon an an amended version came out. (It is still available on my site at http://www.harp.org/patriotact/)
       
          (I donated the hyperlinked copy to the ACLU, which did nothing with it. I suppose they didn't care whether people could actually understand the bill, as long as they contributed.)
       
          Do you have a preferred technique for handling this problem? Are you willing to save marked up copies of bills on your site? Apart from the massive storage needed, how would you (we) keep them current?
       
          Would someone be interested in writing a script which could recognize a statutory reference and generate an appropriate hyperlink?
       
          Even there, there's a problem since most of the USC sites don't have embedded pinpoint anchors to subsections. Would you want to keep local marked up copies of those too?
       
      Harvey
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 7:50 AM
      Subject: [govtrack] I need help!

      Hi guys.

      With the recent discussion about writing bills on a wiki, I know there
      are people here with good technical skills! So I'm writing my periodical
      pitch to get some help with GovTrack. If you want to earn some money
      helping GovTrack, that might also be possible to arrange.

      I've been expanding my list of project ideas here:
      http://wiki. govtrack. us/index. php/Projects

      Here are a few:
      - Display on a bill page a list of sections of the U.S. Code that would
      be modified, by looking for references in the bill text.
      - Researching what the different types of votes are (like 'motion to
      recommit with instructions' ) and adding explanatory text to the site.
      - Tagging bills (crowd-sourcing)
      - Make the website fully compliant with accessibility standards

      Need I say that GovTrack is quite popular and your contributions will
      benefit thousands of people each day? :)

      --
      - Josh Tauberer
      - GovTrack.us

      http://razor. occams.info

      "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
      falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
      Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)

    • Ralph Yozzo
      Just a few points on options for group editing. - Wiki type tools is one option - Another is source code control system such as Subversion or CVS. These are
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 29, 2008
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        Just a few points on options for group editing.

        • Wiki type tools is one option
        • Another is source code control system such as Subversion or CVS.  These are the source code control system used by most programmers to keep track of the history of changes to program source.  It allows for revision history, branching, merging, checking for differences between revisions.  Full History and Userid support. 
        • Group editing tools such as Google documents.
        It's not clear which one is better.  That depends on the users and the situation and the goals.

        Ralph

        On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 5:38 PM, Harvey Frey <hsfrey@...> wrote:

        Josh:
         
            I did something like this with the USA Patriot Act, which appeared to purposely be written in such a way as to hide what was actually being done by not giving the code text as changed, but just saying things like "Insert "not" into the second sentence of section B(3)(c) of xx USC yy", or even worse, referencing the Public Law rather than the USC. (It often took a lot of research just to find the text being amended.)
         
            That required me to have my own copy of the bill text into which I could insert html links to any referenced law as well as self-references. That meant that the entire thing was obsolete as soon an an amended version came out. (It is still available on my site at http://www.harp.org/patriotact/)
         
            (I donated the hyperlinked copy to the ACLU, which did nothing with it. I suppose they didn't care whether people could actually understand the bill, as long as they contributed.)
         
            Do you have a preferred technique for handling this problem? Are you willing to save marked up copies of bills on your site? Apart from the massive storage needed, how would you (we) keep them current?
         
            Would someone be interested in writing a script which could recognize a statutory reference and generate an appropriate hyperlink?
         
            Even there, there's a problem since most of the USC sites don't have embedded pinpoint anchors to subsections. Would you want to keep local marked up copies of those too?
         
        Harvey
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 7:50 AM
        Subject: [govtrack] I need help!

        Hi guys.

        With the recent discussion about writing bills on a wiki, I know there
        are people here with good technical skills! So I'm writing my periodical
        pitch to get some help with GovTrack. If you want to earn some money
        helping GovTrack, that might also be possible to arrange.

        I've been expanding my list of project ideas here:
        http://wiki.govtrack.us/index.php/Projects

        Here are a few:
        - Display on a bill page a list of sections of the U.S. Code that would
        be modified, by looking for references in the bill text.
        - Researching what the different types of votes are (like 'motion to
        recommit with instructions') and adding explanatory text to the site.
        - Tagging bills (crowd-sourcing)
        - Make the website fully compliant with accessibility standards

        Need I say that GovTrack is quite popular and your contributions will
        benefit thousands of people each day? :)

        --
        - Josh Tauberer
        - GovTrack.us

        http://razor.occams.info

        "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
        falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
        Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)


      • Josh Tauberer
        ... Most things I have in mind are meant to be done by an automated process, not manually editing bills. There are some things that would be nice to do with
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 29, 2008
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          Harvey Frey wrote:
          > Would there be some way to list the bills which you would like
          > someone to work on, and allow individuals to sign up to work on them,
          > and "lock" those bills so that one person won't overwrite another's
          > changes?
          >
          > I doubt that you want just anyone uploading changes to your site. How
          > would you control uploads of edited bill text?

          Most things I have in mind are meant to be done by an automated process,
          not manually editing bills. There are some things that would be nice to
          do with human editing, of course, but they are much more complicated
          projects. More below. First to address some other points:

          > Would someone be interested in writing a script which could recognize
          > a statutory reference and generate an appropriate hyperlink?

          I've already done that for U.S.C. references. They are hyperlinked on
          GovTrack already.

          > Even there, there's a problem since most of the USC sites don't have
          > embedded pinpoint anchors to subsections. Would you want to keep
          > local marked up copies of those too?

          If necessary absolutely, but I could talk to someone at the Cornell LII
          website if we wanted to do something more with them.

          > Do you have a preferred technique for handling this problem?

          ReadableLaws by Matt Burton tried an approach to annotating bills and we
          were talking about how to collaborate.

          I general I think the right approach is going to depend on the specifics
          of the goal. Whether it's marking up how a bill modifies the US Code or
          something else.

          > Are you willing to save marked up copies of bills on your site? Apart from
          > the massive storage needed

          This is not a problem.

          > how would you (we) keep them current?

          This is one of the reasons this is a very complicated project to do
          correctly.

          An approach, for which I have the basis in the works, is to tie mark-up
          to the bill on a paragraph-by-paragraph level. Each paragraph gets an
          id. And these ids carry through as the bill is revised (automatically).
          Some ids disappear when paragraphs are deleted, and new ids come in as
          paragraphs are added. (It would be nice if Congress provided these ids,
          but they don't, so I'm working on generating them.)

          There are some very useful projects in here, in terms of human editing,
          but it's one of the most ambitious types of projects to tackle.

          --
          - Josh Tauberer
          - GovTrack.us

          http://razor.occams.info

          "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
          falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
          Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
        • Harvey Frey
          ... GovTrack already.
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 29, 2008
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            Josh:

            >I've already done that for U.S.C. references. They are hyperlinked on
            GovTrack already.<

            Oh, good! In annotating the USA Patriot Act, I found that they often
            made reference to a law by its NAME, which meant I needed to find the PL
            number and then, if possible the USC cites. <G> I think this was intentional
            obfuscation, and would be hard to follow automatically.

            >ReadableLaws by Matt Burton tried an approach to annotating bills and we
            were talking about how to collaborate.<

            Thanks for that reference! I'll check it out. I've attended several
            conferences on Legislative markup, but didn't find much of value, especially
            as I'm interested primarily in Semantic annotation, and the state of the art
            still seems to be syntactic (dates, addresses, etc.)

            What is your preferred language for the scripts you write to manipulate
            the bill text?

            Do you have an ontology for the XML you generate? That would be a
            starting point for those of us who might be interested in helping. I've
            developed a primitive 'folksonomy' for myself, but it's primarily aimed at
            court decisions rather than legislation.

            Harvey



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Josh Tauberer
            To: govtrack@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:01 PM
            Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!


            Harvey Frey wrote:
            > Would there be some way to list the bills which you would like
            > someone to work on, and allow individuals to sign up to work on them,
            > and "lock" those bills so that one person won't overwrite another's
            > changes?
            >
            > I doubt that you want just anyone uploading changes to your site. How
            > would you control uploads of edited bill text?

            Most things I have in mind are meant to be done by an automated process,
            not manually editing bills. There are some things that would be nice to
            do with human editing, of course, but they are much more complicated
            projects. More below. First to address some other points:

            > Would someone be interested in writing a script which could recognize
            > a statutory reference and generate an appropriate hyperlink?

            I've already done that for U.S.C. references. They are hyperlinked on
            GovTrack already.

            > Even there, there's a problem since most of the USC sites don't have
            > embedded pinpoint anchors to subsections. Would you want to keep
            > local marked up copies of those too?

            If necessary absolutely, but I could talk to someone at the Cornell LII
            website if we wanted to do something more with them.

            > Do you have a preferred technique for handling this problem?

            ReadableLaws by Matt Burton tried an approach to annotating bills and we
            were talking about how to collaborate.

            I general I think the right approach is going to depend on the specifics
            of the goal. Whether it's marking up how a bill modifies the US Code or
            something else.

            > Are you willing to save marked up copies of bills on your site? Apart from
            > the massive storage needed

            This is not a problem.

            > how would you (we) keep them current?

            This is one of the reasons this is a very complicated project to do
            correctly.

            An approach, for which I have the basis in the works, is to tie mark-up
            to the bill on a paragraph-by-paragraph level. Each paragraph gets an
            id. And these ids carry through as the bill is revised (automatically).
            Some ids disappear when paragraphs are deleted, and new ids come in as
            paragraphs are added. (It would be nice if Congress provided these ids,
            but they don't, so I'm working on generating them.)

            There are some very useful projects in here, in terms of human editing,
            but it's one of the most ambitious types of projects to tackle.

            --
            - Josh Tauberer
            - GovTrack.us

            http://razor.occams.info

            "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
            falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
            Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
          • Joe Germuska
            ... Regarding the idea that it would be nice if Congress provided these ... It seems worthwhile to me that citizens push for a more modern approach to
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 29, 2008
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              On Jun 29, 2008, at 7:01 PM, Josh Tauberer wrote:
              (It would be nice if Congress provided these ids, but they don't, so I'm working on generating them.)

              Regarding the idea that it would be nice if Congress provided these IDs, and also things like this from Readable Laws:
              When translating laws, pay special attention to de-referencing them. One of the reasons bills are so hard to read is their failure to actually say what they are doing. Instead, they often just modify existing laws. Here's an example from the USA PATRIOT Act:
                Section 105(e)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1805(e)(1)) is amended by-- 
                 (A) inserting `(A)' after `except that'; and 
                 (B) inserting before the period the following:...
              
              It seems worthwhile to me that citizens push for a more modern approach to legislation.  It is nonsense that something like the above would not also include the updated text in its entirety, especially in an electronic age.

              I understand that GovTrack is focused on machine-solvable problems, so maybe this question is better targeted at the Open Gov Data mailing list or some other community–but I know there's a lot of overlap, and this thread is here.  So: is there any traction in Congress itself or in the activist community to push for some process rationalization? Is this hopelessly naîve?  I am pretty far removed from both of those communities, but I think it's time we start pointing out to Congress that we can already see the ways in which they simply block progress and that we want that to change.

              I'm going to try to attend the IGOTF meeting in Chicago in August (since I live here). This is the kind of thing I hope to talk about with people and find out how I can help.  

              Joe

              -- 
              Joe Germuska
              Joe@... * http://blog.germuska.com    

              "I felt so good I told the leader how to follow."
              -- Sly Stone 

            • Josh Tauberer
              ... If you learn anything interesting, I d love to hear about it. ... I use Perl. If I were to start over again today I d probably use Python. But, to the
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 29, 2008
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                > I've attended several
                > conferences on Legislative markup, but didn't find much of value, especially
                > as I'm interested primarily in Semantic annotation, and the state of the art
                > still seems to be syntactic (dates, addresses, etc.)

                If you learn anything interesting, I'd love to hear about it.

                > What is your preferred language for the scripts you write to manipulate
                > the bill text?

                I use Perl. If I were to start over again today I'd probably use Python.
                But, to the extent anyone wants to contribute, I would prefer Perl so
                they could reuse my existing routines, but I would gladly accept Python
                and maybe other languages.

                > Do you have an ontology for the XML you generate?

                I have some documentation of most things here:
                http://wiki.govtrack.us/index.php/Data_Directory

                But it doesn't include anything about the structure of bill text XML
                that I generate, in part because it comes from HTML from THOMAS and I
                don't have a complete (or any) description of that.

                --
                - Josh Tauberer
                - GovTrack.us

                http://razor.occams.info

                "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
                falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
                Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
              • Josh Tauberer
                ... Actually I sympathize with the bill writers, who are often, I believe, from the Office of Legislative Counsel (OLC), separate for House and Senate it
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 29, 2008
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                  Joe Germuska wrote:
                  > On Jun 29, 2008, at 7:01 PM, Josh Tauberer wrote:
                  >> (It would be nice if Congress provided these ids, but they don't, so
                  >> I'm working on generating them.)
                  >
                  > Regarding the idea that it would be nice if Congress provided these IDs,
                  > and also things like this
                  > <http://readablelaws.org/index.php?title=Help:Contributing> from
                  > Readable Laws:
                  >> When translating laws, pay special attention to de-referencing them.
                  >> One of the reasons bills are so hard to read is their failure to
                  >> actually say /what/ they are doing. Instead, they often just modify
                  >> existing laws. Here's an example from the USA PATRIOT Act:
                  >> Section 105(e)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1805(e)(1)) is amended by--
                  >> (A) inserting `(A)' after `except that'; and
                  >> (B) inserting before the period the following:...
                  > It seems worthwhile to me that citizens push for a more modern approach
                  > to legislation. It is nonsense that something like the above would not
                  > also include the updated text in its entirety, especially in an
                  > electronic age.

                  Actually I sympathize with the bill writers, who are often, I believe,
                  from the Office of Legislative Counsel (OLC), separate for House and
                  Senate it seems. When writing code --- be it legal or computer --- you
                  want to be as concise as possible. The fewer words the less likelihood
                  of errors, and the easier it is to see exactly what the precise
                  modification is (though more difficult to understand it).

                  So I would prefer separate annotations.

                  > I understand that GovTrack is focused on machine-solvable problems

                  Only because that's what I've been capable of doing. Crowd-sourcing is
                  certainly on topic for this list.

                  > So: is there any traction in Congress itself or in the
                  > activist community to push for some process rationalization?

                  I haven't heard of anything significant.

                  > Is this hopelessly naîve?

                  Depends on what you want. Additionally writing annotations doesn't seem
                  like something particularly difficult for the OLC to do, but it would
                  require funding.

                  Grander process changes are probably hopeless without small incremental
                  steps.

                  > I'm going to try to attend the IGOTF meeting <http://igotf.org/> in
                  > Chicago in August (since I live here). This is the kind of thing I hope
                  > to talk about with people and find out how I can help.

                  Wish I could go.

                  --
                  - Josh Tauberer
                  - GovTrack.us

                  http://razor.occams.info

                  "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
                  falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
                  Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
                • Harvey Frey
                  It s really odd that the OLC has no drafting standards. The Dutch and Italians are way ahead on that, and the UN is supporting Akoma Ntosa for new African
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 29, 2008
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                    It's really odd that the OLC has no drafting standards.
                    The Dutch and Italians are way ahead on that, and the UN is supporting Akoma Ntosa for new African states.
                     
                    Such standards could certainly be imposed here by statute, but I can't imagine who in Congress would be interested in pushing that.
                     
                    Ambiguity often suits the purposes of the legislators by:
                    allowing irreconcilable parties to believe that they had agreed to different policies; making it hard for rank and file to know what they're actually being asked to vote for; providing deniability when things work out poorly; and, as we see in the USA Patriot Act, making it difficult for potential critics to even determine what the law says. 
                     
                    But there might be a benefit to an independent program which could objectively parse the logic of proposed bills and provide that to congressional staff.
                     
                    Just providing internal hyperlinks would make it so much easier for staffers to understand a bill that they might study that instead of the official version, once they learned it could be trusted to be non-partisan.
                     
                    Harvey
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 10:15 PM
                    Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!

                    Joe Germuska wrote:
                    > On Jun 29, 2008, at 7:01 PM, Josh Tauberer wrote:
                    >> (It would be nice if Congress provided these ids, but they don't, so
                    >> I'm working on generating them.)
                    >
                    > Regarding the idea that it would be nice if Congress provided these IDs,
                    > and also things like this
                    > <http://readablelaws.org/index.php?title=Help:Contributing> from
                    > Readable Laws:
                    >> When translating laws, pay special attention to de-referencing them.
                    >> One of the reasons bills are so hard to read is their failure to
                    >> actually say /what/ they are doing. Instead, they often just modify
                    >> existing laws. Here's an example from the USA PATRIOT Act:
                    >>   Section 105(e)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1805(e)(1)) is amended by--
                    >>    (A) inserting `(A)' after `except that'; and
                    >>    (B) inserting before the period the following:...
                    > It seems worthwhile to me that citizens push for a more modern approach
                    > to legislation.  It is nonsense that something like the above would not
                    > also include the updated text in its entirety, especially in an
                    > electronic age.

                    Actually I sympathize with the bill writers, who are often, I believe,
                    from the Office of Legislative Counsel (OLC), separate for House and
                    Senate it seems. When writing code --- be it legal or computer --- you
                    want to be as concise as possible. The fewer words the less likelihood
                    of errors, and the easier it is to see exactly what the precise
                    modification is (though more difficult to understand it).

                    So I would prefer separate annotations.

                    > I understand that GovTrack is focused on machine-solvable problems

                    Only because that's what I've been capable of doing. Crowd-sourcing is
                    certainly on topic for this list.

                    > So: is there any traction in Congress itself or in the
                    > activist community to push for some process rationalization?

                    I haven't heard of anything significant.

                    > Is this hopelessly naîve?

                    Depends on what you want. Additionally writing annotations doesn't seem
                    like something particularly difficult for the OLC to do, but it would
                    require funding.

                    Grander process changes are probably hopeless without small incremental
                    steps.

                    > I'm going to try to attend the IGOTF meeting <http://igotf.org/> in
                    > Chicago in August (since I live here). This is the kind of thing I hope
                    > to talk about with people and find out how I can help. 

                    Wish I could go.

                    --
                    - Josh Tauberer
                    - GovTrack.us

                    http://razor.occams.info

                    "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation!  Yields
                    falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
                    Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)

                    ------------------------------------

                  • Pierre Demester
                    any thoughts of using Coldfusion ? Pierre _____ From: govtrack@yahoogroups.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Josh Tauberer Sent: Monday, June
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      any thoughts of using Coldfusion ?
                       
                      Pierre
                       


                      From: govtrack@yahoogroups.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Josh Tauberer
                      Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 1:04 AM
                      To: govtrack@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!

                      > I've attended several
                      > conferences on Legislative markup, but

                      didn't find much of value, especially
                      > as I'm interested primarily in
                      Semantic annotation, and the state of the art
                      > still seems to be
                      syntactic (dates, addresses, etc.)

                      If you learn anything interesting, I'd love to hear about it.

                      > What is your preferred language for the
                      scripts you write to manipulate
                      > the bill text?

                      I use Perl. If I were to start over again today I'd probably use Python.
                      But, to the extent anyone wants to contribute, I would prefer Perl so
                      they could reuse my existing routines, but I would gladly accept Python
                      and maybe other languages.

                      > Do you have an ontology for the XML you
                      generate?

                      I have some documentation of most things here:
                      http://wiki. govtrack. us/index. php/Data_ Directory

                      But it doesn't include anything about the structure of bill text XML
                      that I generate, in part because it comes from HTML from THOMAS and I
                      don't have a complete (or any) description of that.

                      --
                      - Josh Tauberer
                      - GovTrack.us

                      http://razor. occams.info

                      "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
                      falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
                      Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
                    • Josh Tauberer
                      ... I actually don t know the first thing about ColdFusion. -- - Josh Tauberer - GovTrack.us http://razor.occams.info Yields falsehood when preceded by its
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
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                        Pierre Demester wrote:
                        > any thoughts of using Coldfusion ?

                        I actually don't know the first thing about ColdFusion.

                        --
                        - Josh Tauberer
                        - GovTrack.us

                        http://razor.occams.info

                        "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
                        falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
                        Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
                      • Pierre Demester
                        Coldfusion is similar to ASP (Microsoft) and PHP (open source)... in that it is a scripting language. PHP has Object Orientation (OO) - whereas Coldfusion (CF)
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Coldfusion is similar to ASP (Microsoft) and PHP (open source)... in that it is a scripting language.
                           
                          PHP has Object Orientation (OO) - whereas Coldfusion (CF) (developed (Jeremy) Allaire and Ben Forta, then sold to Macromedia, bought by Adobe) resembles HTML.
                           
                          I, unfortunately have not had the opportunity (not currently cost effective to upgrade) to use CF 8 - which I think includes OO... but I might be incorrect.
                           
                          If you know HTML - you can learn CF fairly quickly.
                          -- to fully utilize PHP... you need an understanding of OO.. which is a barrier that most people cannot cross.
                          --- therefore, most PHP installs are not fully utilized. The "power is there"... the knowledge lacks.
                           
                          Another major difference is that PHP is free.
                          -- CF starts @ $700... $2500 if you need the Enterprise edition. Most people don't.
                           
                          My take - you get what you pay for, Free is nice. There's a price for Quality.
                           
                          A third obstable is the installation base. Because PHP is free - there are literally thousands (upon thousands) of companies who "toss in" PHP for free.
                          -- PHP is part of the standard linux install. All of my servers have PHP - I rarely use it.
                           
                          Because CF has a cost... the number of companies providing hosting services drops dramatically.
                          - most companies who switch to CF... provide their own hosting services
                           
                          It's the same issues with databases
                          -- MySQL (free / open source / hosted by 1000's upon 1000's)
                          -- as compared to Microsoft SQL Server (very expensive / professional results).
                           
                          Many large entities use CF... Amazon.com, EBay.com, Senate.gov, Jaguar (the car manufacturer)... literally too many to list.
                          - the number of PHP / MySql installations are uncountable.
                           
                          I think I've even come a Whitehouse.gov section that was CF based.
                          -- some entities develop their entire site with CF - others only develop a portion.
                           
                          CF works with Sun Solaris, Windows IIS, and Linux.
                           
                          Pierre
                           
                           
                           
                           


                          From: govtrack@yahoogroups.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Josh Tauberer
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:33 AM
                          To: govtrack@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!

                          Pierre Demester wrote:

                          > any thoughts of using Coldfusion ?

                          I actually don't know the first thing about ColdFusion.

                          --
                          - Josh Tauberer
                          - GovTrack.us

                          http://razor. occams.info

                          "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
                          falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
                          Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)

                        • Derek Willis
                          Please, please, not cold fusion. -1 (or as many as I can muster). ... -- -- Derek Willis dwillis@gmail.com http://www.thescoop.org/docs/
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Please, please, not cold fusion. -1 (or as many as I can muster).

                            On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Pierre Demester <pierre@...> wrote:
                            > Coldfusion is similar to ASP (Microsoft) and PHP (open source)... in that it
                            > is a scripting language.
                            >
                            > PHP has Object Orientation (OO) - whereas Coldfusion (CF) (developed
                            > (Jeremy) Allaire and Ben Forta, then sold to Macromedia, bought by Adobe)
                            > resembles HTML.
                            >
                            > I, unfortunately have not had the opportunity (not currently cost effective
                            > to upgrade) to use CF 8 - which I think includes OO... but I might be
                            > incorrect.
                            >
                            > If you know HTML - you can learn CF fairly quickly.
                            > -- to fully utilize PHP... you need an understanding of OO.. which is a
                            > barrier that most people cannot cross.
                            > --- therefore, most PHP installs are not fully utilized. The "power is
                            > there"... the knowledge lacks.
                            >
                            > Another major difference is that PHP is free.
                            > -- CF starts @ $700... $2500 if you need the Enterprise edition. Most people
                            > don't.
                            >
                            > My take - you get what you pay for, Free is nice. There's a price for
                            > Quality.
                            >
                            > A third obstable is the installation base. Because PHP is free - there are
                            > literally thousands (upon thousands) of companies who "toss in" PHP for
                            > free.
                            > -- PHP is part of the standard linux install. All of my servers have PHP - I
                            > rarely use it.
                            >
                            > Because CF has a cost... the number of companies providing hosting services
                            > drops dramatically.
                            > - most companies who switch to CF... provide their own hosting services
                            >
                            > It's the same issues with databases
                            > -- MySQL (free / open source / hosted by 1000's upon 1000's)
                            > -- as compared to Microsoft SQL Server (very expensive / professional
                            > results).
                            >
                            > Many large entities use CF... Amazon.com, EBay.com, Senate.gov, Jaguar (the
                            > car manufacturer)... literally too many to list.
                            > - the number of PHP / MySql installations are uncountable.
                            >
                            > I think I've even come a Whitehouse.gov section that was CF based.
                            > -- some entities develop their entire site with CF - others only develop a
                            > portion.
                            >
                            > CF works with Sun Solaris, Windows IIS, and Linux.
                            >
                            > Pierre
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: govtrack@yahoogroups.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            > Of Josh Tauberer
                            > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:33 AM
                            > To: govtrack@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!
                            >
                            > Pierre Demester wrote:
                            >> any thoughts of using Coldfusion ?
                            >
                            > I actually don't know the first thing about ColdFusion.
                            >
                            > --
                            > - Josh Tauberer
                            > - GovTrack.us
                            >
                            > http://razor.occams.info
                            >
                            > "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
                            > falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
                            > Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
                            >
                            >



                            --
                            --
                            Derek Willis
                            dwillis@...
                            http://www.thescoop.org/docs/
                          • Pierre Demester
                            there ya go. I knew there would be at least one. Pierre _____ From: govtrack@yahoogroups.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek Willis Sent:
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              there ya go. I knew there would be at least one.
                               
                              Pierre
                               


                              From: govtrack@yahoogroups.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek Willis
                              Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 10:19 AM
                              To: govtrack@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!

                              Please, please, not cold fusion. -1 (or as many as I can muster).

                              On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Pierre Demester <pierre@.... us> wrote:

                              > Coldfusion is similar to ASP (Microsoft) and PHP (open source)...
                              in that it
                              > is a scripting language.
                              >
                              > PHP has Object
                              Orientation (OO) - whereas Coldfusion (CF) (developed
                              > (Jeremy) Allaire
                              and Ben Forta, then sold to Macromedia, bought by Adobe)
                              > resembles
                              HTML.
                              >
                              > I, unfortunately have not had the opportunity (not
                              currently cost effective
                              > to upgrade) to use CF 8 - which I think
                              includes OO... but I might be
                              > incorrect.
                              >
                              > If you know
                              HTML - you can learn CF fairly quickly.
                              > -- to fully utilize PHP... you
                              need an understanding of OO.. which is a
                              > barrier that most people cannot
                              cross.
                              > --- therefore, most PHP installs are not fully utilized. The
                              "power is
                              > there"... the knowledge lacks.
                              >
                              > Another major
                              difference is that PHP is free.
                              > -- CF starts @ $700... $2500 if you need
                              the Enterprise edition. Most people
                              > don't.
                              >
                              > My take - you
                              get what you pay for, Free is nice. There's a price for
                              >
                              Quality.
                              >
                              > A third obstable is the installation base. Because PHP
                              is free - there are
                              > literally thousands (upon thousands) of companies
                              who "toss in" PHP for
                              > free.
                              > -- PHP is part of the standard linux
                              install. All of my servers have PHP - I
                              > rarely use it.
                              >
                              >
                              Because CF has a cost... the number of companies providing hosting services
                              > drops dramatically.
                              > - most companies who switch to
                              CF... provide their own hosting services
                              >
                              > It's the same issues
                              with databases
                              > -- MySQL (free / open source / hosted by 1000's upon
                              1000's)
                              > -- as compared to Microsoft SQL Server (very expensive /
                              professional
                              > results).
                              >
                              > Many large entities use CF...
                              Amazon.com, EBay.com, Senate.gov, Jaguar (the
                              > car manufacturer) ...
                              literally too many to list.
                              > - the number of PHP / MySql installations
                              are uncountable.
                              >
                              > I think I've even come a Whitehouse.gov section
                              that was CF based.
                              > -- some entities develop their entire site with CF -
                              others only develop a
                              > portion.
                              >
                              > CF works with Sun
                              Solaris, Windows IIS, and Linux.
                              >
                              >
                              Pierre
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              ____________ _________ _________ __
                              > From:
                              href="mailto:govtrack%40yahoogroups.com">govtrack@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf
                              > Of Josh Tauberer
                              > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:33
                              AM
                              > To:
                              href="mailto:govtrack%40yahoogroups.com">govtrack@yahoogroup s.com
                              >
                              Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!
                              >
                              > Pierre Demester
                              wrote:
                              >> any thoughts of using Coldfusion ?
                              >
                              > I actually
                              don't know the first thing about ColdFusion.
                              >
                              > --
                              > - Josh
                              Tauberer
                              > - GovTrack.us
                              >
                              >
                              href="http://razor.occams.info">http://razor. occams.info
                              >
                              >
                              "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
                              > falsehood when
                              preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
                              > Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher,
                              Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
                              >
                              >

                              --
                              --
                              Derek Willis
                              dwillis@gmail. com
                              http://www.thescoop .org/docs/

                            • Mark Fredrickson
                              I call bikeshed on this discussion[1]. Code is gold: if you can write something in Coldfusion, do so. If you can write it in something else, do so. Best of
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
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                                I call "bikeshed" on this discussion[1]. Code is gold: if you can write something in Coldfusion, do so. If you can write it in something else, do so.

                                Best of luck,
                                -M


                                On Jul 2, 2008, at 9:19 AM, Derek Willis wrote:

                                Please, please, not cold fusion. -1 (or as many as I can muster).

                                On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Pierre Demester <pierre@.... us> wrote:
                                > Coldfusion is similar to ASP (Microsoft) and PHP (open source)... in that it
                                > is a scripting language.
                                >
                                > PHP has Object Orientation (OO) - whereas Coldfusion (CF) (developed
                                > (Jeremy) Allaire and Ben Forta, then sold to Macromedia, bought by Adobe)
                                > resembles HTML.
                                >
                                > I, unfortunately have not had the opportunity (not currently cost effective
                                > to upgrade) to use CF 8 - which I think includes OO... but I might be
                                > incorrect.
                                >
                                > If you know HTML - you can learn CF fairly quickly.
                                > -- to fully utilize PHP... you need an understanding of OO.. which is a
                                > barrier that most people cannot cross.
                                > --- therefore, most PHP installs are not fully utilized. The "power is
                                > there"... the knowledge lacks.
                                >
                                > Another major difference is that PHP is free.
                                > -- CF starts @ $700... $2500 if you need the Enterprise edition. Most people
                                > don't.
                                >
                                > My take - you get what you pay for, Free is nice. There's a price for
                                > Quality.
                                >
                                > A third obstable is the installation base. Because PHP is free - there are
                                > literally thousands (upon thousands) of companies who "toss in" PHP for
                                > free.
                                > -- PHP is part of the standard linux install. All of my servers have PHP - I
                                > rarely use it.
                                >
                                > Because CF has a cost... the number of companies providing hosting services
                                > drops dramatically.
                                > - most companies who switch to CF... provide their own hosting services
                                >
                                > It's the same issues with databases
                                > -- MySQL (free / open source / hosted by 1000's upon 1000's)
                                > -- as compared to Microsoft SQL Server (very expensive / professional
                                > results).
                                >
                                > Many large entities use CF... Amazon.com, EBay.com, Senate.gov, Jaguar (the
                                > car manufacturer) ... literally too many to list.
                                > - the number of PHP / MySql installations are uncountable.
                                >
                                > I think I've even come a Whitehouse.gov section that was CF based.
                                > -- some entities develop their entire site with CF - others only develop a
                                > portion.
                                >
                                > CF works with Sun Solaris, Windows IIS, and Linux.
                                >
                                > Pierre
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                > From: govtrack@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf
                                > Of Josh Tauberer
                                > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:33 AM
                                > To: govtrack@yahoogroup s.com
                                > Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!
                                >
                                > Pierre Demester wrote:
                                >> any thoughts of using Coldfusion ?
                                >
                                > I actually don't know the first thing about ColdFusion.
                                >
                                > --
                                > - Josh Tauberer
                                > - GovTrack.us
                                >
                                > http://razor. occams.info
                                >
                                > "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
                                > falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
                                > Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
                                >
                                > 

                                -- 
                                --
                                Derek Willis
                                dwillis@gmail. com
                                http://www.thescoop .org/docs/


                              • Neil Rest
                                Code has to be maintained. When a development project goes live, less than half its full life-cycle cost has been spent; the rest is modification. Personally,
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
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                                  Code has to be maintained.
                                  When a development project goes live, less than half its full
                                  life-cycle cost has been spent; the rest is modification.
                                  Personally, I'm thumbs up on PHP (objects available, not mandatory,
                                  btw), and thumbs down on ColdFusion (proprietary add-on to a graphics
                                  package), but regardless, one of the first rules of good code is Make
                                  it readable, Make it modifiable.
                                  It might run like gold and still be bad code.


                                  At 09:27 AM 7/2/2008, Mark Fredrickson <mark.m.fredrickson@...> wrote:
                                  >I call "bikeshed" on this discussion[1]. Code is gold: if you can
                                  >write something in Coldfusion, do so. If you can write it in
                                  >something else, do so.
                                  >
                                  >Best of luck,
                                  >-M
                                  >
                                  >[1] <http://www.bikeshed.com/>http://www.bikeshed.com/ and
                                  ><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed
                                  >
                                  >On Jul 2, 2008, at 9:19 AM, Derek Willis wrote:
                                  >
                                  >>Please, please, not cold fusion. -1 (or as many as I can muster).
                                  >>
                                  >>On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Pierre Demester
                                  >><<mailto:pierre%40in.ternet.us>pierre@...! .us> wrote:
                                  >> > Coldfusion is similar to ASP (Microsoft) and PHP (open
                                  >> source)... in that it
                                  >> > is a scripting language.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > PHP has Object Orientation (OO) - whereas Coldfusion (CF) (developed
                                  >> > (Jeremy) Allaire and Ben Forta, then sold to Macromedia, bought by Adobe)
                                  >> > resembles HTML.


                                  Neil
                                  --
                                  NeilRest@...

                                  Plato had defined the human being as an animal, biped and
                                  featherless, and was applauded. Diogenes plucked a fowl and brought
                                  it into the lecture-room with the words, 'Here is Plato's human
                                  being.' In consequence of which there was added to the definition,
                                  'having broad nails'.
                                • Pierre Demester
                                  i agree Pierre _____ From: govtrack@yahoogroups.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Fredrickson Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 10:27 AM To:
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    i agree
                                     
                                    Pierre
                                     


                                    From: govtrack@yahoogroups.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Fredrickson
                                    Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 10:27 AM
                                    To: govtrack@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!

                                    I call "bikeshed" on this discussion[1] . Code is gold: if you can write something in Coldfusion, do so. If you can write it in something else, do so.


                                    Best of luck,
                                    -M


                                    On Jul 2, 2008, at 9:19 AM, Derek Willis wrote:

                                    Please, please, not cold fusion. -1 (or as many as I can muster).

                                    On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Pierre Demester <pierre@.... us> wrote:
                                    > Coldfusion is similar to ASP (Microsoft) and PHP (open source)... in that it
                                    > is a scripting language.
                                    >
                                    > PHP has Object Orientation (OO) - whereas Coldfusion (CF) (developed
                                    > (Jeremy) Allaire and Ben Forta, then sold to Macromedia, bought by Adobe)
                                    > resembles HTML.
                                    >
                                    > I, unfortunately have not had the opportunity (not currently cost effective
                                    > to upgrade) to use CF 8 - which I think includes OO... but I might be
                                    > incorrect.
                                    >
                                    > If you know HTML - you can learn CF fairly quickly.
                                    > -- to fully utilize PHP... you need an understanding of OO.. which is a
                                    > barrier that most people cannot cross.
                                    > --- therefore, most PHP installs are not fully utilized. The "power is
                                    > there"... the knowledge lacks.
                                    >
                                    > Another major difference is that PHP is free.
                                    > -- CF starts @ $700... $2500 if you need the Enterprise edition. Most people
                                    > don't.
                                    >
                                    > My take - you get what you pay for, Free is nice. There's a price for
                                    > Quality.
                                    >
                                    > A third obstable is the installation base. Because PHP is free - there are
                                    > literally thousands (upon thousands) of companies who "toss in" PHP for
                                    > free.
                                    > -- PHP is part of the standard linux install. All of my servers have PHP - I
                                    > rarely use it.
                                    >
                                    > Because CF has a cost... the number of companies providing hosting services
                                    > drops dramatically.
                                    > - most companies who switch to CF... provide their own hosting services
                                    >
                                    > It's the same issues with databases
                                    > -- MySQL (free / open source / hosted by 1000's upon 1000's)
                                    > -- as compared to Microsoft SQL Server (very expensive / professional
                                    > results).
                                    >
                                    > Many large entities use CF... Amazon.com, EBay.com, Senate.gov, Jaguar (the
                                    > car manufacturer) ... literally too many to list.
                                    > - the number of PHP / MySql installations are uncountable.
                                    >
                                    > I think I've even come a Whitehouse.gov section that was CF based.
                                    > -- some entities develop their entire site with CF - others only develop a
                                    > portion.
                                    >
                                    > CF works with Sun Solaris, Windows IIS, and Linux.
                                    >
                                    > Pierre
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                    > From: govtrack@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf
                                    > Of Josh Tauberer
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:33 AM
                                    > To: govtrack@yahoogroup s.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!
                                    >
                                    > Pierre Demester wrote:
                                    >> any thoughts of using Coldfusion ?
                                    >
                                    > I actually don't know the first thing about ColdFusion.
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > - Josh Tauberer
                                    > - GovTrack.us
                                    >
                                    > http://razor. occams.info
                                    >
                                    > "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
                                    > falsehood when preceded by its quotation!" Achilles to
                                    > Tortoise (in "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter)
                                    >
                                    > 

                                    -- 
                                    --
                                    Derek Willis
                                    dwillis@gmail. com
                                    http://www.thescoop .org/docs/


                                  • Dale Moore
                                    Is c#, .NET or MONO an option?
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
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                                      Is c#, .NET or MONO an option?

                                    • Jeremy Dunck
                                      ... I use Perl. If I were to start over again today I d probably use Python. But, to the extent anyone wants to contribute, I would prefer Perl so they could
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Dale Moore <DaleEMoore@...> wrote:
                                        > Is c#, .NET or MONO an option?
                                        >

                                        In case you didn't see Josh's prior response, quoting:

                                        > What is your preferred language for the scripts you write to manipulate
                                        > the bill text?

                                        I use Perl. If I were to start over again today I'd probably use Python.
                                        But, to the extent anyone wants to contribute, I would prefer Perl so
                                        they could reuse my existing routines, but I would gladly accept Python
                                        and maybe other languages.
                                      • Pierre Demester
                                        I m a little confused - Coldfusion (proprietary add-on to a graphic package) ??? Are you saying Coldfusion is a graphic application ? ... As for PHP - it s not
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
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                                          I'm a little confused
                                          - Coldfusion (proprietary add-on to a graphic package) ???
                                           
                                          Are you saying Coldfusion is a graphic application ?
                                           
                                          -----------------------------------
                                           
                                          As for PHP - it's not a bad language - like any language... it has it's benefits and drawbacks.
                                           
                                          In my own opinion - proprietary is not always a bad choice. Most of the application we develop and have developed - have been for proprietary purposes.
                                           
                                          The scale and use of our applications are always a large consideration when reviewing the range of choices (development languages) available.
                                           
                                          Our actual preferred language is C++... though not very useful as web language - it suffices well for backend development.
                                           
                                          We primarily use it for real-time interaction.
                                           
                                          Pierre
                                           


                                          From: govtrack@yahoogroups.com [mailto:govtrack@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Neil Rest
                                          Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 11:03 AM
                                          To: govtrack@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [govtrack] I need help!

                                          Code has to be maintained.
                                          When a development project goes live, less than half its full
                                          life-cycle cost has been spent; the rest is modification.
                                          Personally, I'm thumbs up on PHP (objects available, not mandatory,
                                          btw), and thumbs down on ColdFusion (proprietary add-on to a graphics
                                          package), but regardless, one of the first rules of good code is Make
                                          it readable, Make it modifiable.
                                          It might run like gold and still be bad code.

                                          At 09:27 AM 7/2/2008, Mark Fredrickson <mark.m.fredrickson@ gmail.com> wrote:

                                          >I call "bikeshed" on this discussion[1] . Code is gold: if you
                                          can
                                          >write something in Coldfusion, do so. If you can write it in
                                          >something else, do so.
                                          >
                                          >Best of
                                          luck,
                                          >-M
                                          >
                                          >[1] <
                                          href="http://www.bikeshed.com/">http://www.bikeshed .com/>http://www.bikeshed .com/ and
                                          ><
                                          href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed">http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Color_of_ the_bikeshed>http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Color_of_ the_bikeshed
                                          >
                                          >On
                                          Jul 2, 2008, at 9:19 AM, Derek Willis wrote:
                                          >
                                          >>Please, please,
                                          not cold fusion. -1 (or as many as I can muster).
                                          >>
                                          >>On Wed,
                                          Jul 2, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Pierre Demester
                                          >><<mailto:pierre% 40in.ternet. us>
                                          href="mailto:pierre%40in.ternet">pierre@...! .us> wrote:
                                          >> > Coldfusion is similar to ASP (Microsoft) and PHP (open
                                          >> source)... in that it
                                          >> > is a scripting
                                          language.
                                          >> >
                                          >> > PHP has Object Orientation (OO) -
                                          whereas Coldfusion (CF) (developed
                                          >> > (Jeremy) Allaire and Ben
                                          Forta, then sold to Macromedia, bought by Adobe)
                                          >> > resembles
                                          HTML.

                                          Neil
                                          --
                                          NeilRest@rcn. com

                                          Plato had defined the human being as an animal, biped and
                                          featherless, and was applauded. Diogenes plucked a fowl and brought
                                          it into the lecture-room with the words, 'Here is Plato's human
                                          being.' In consequence of which there was added to the definition,
                                          'having broad nails'.

                                        • Josh Tauberer
                                          ... Okay, okay, let s not have this list turn into a discussion about programming languages. The priority should be finding a *civic project* to work on, not
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jul 2, 2008
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                                            Pierre Demester wrote:
                                            > I'm a little confused
                                            > - Coldfusion (proprietary add-on to a graphic package) ???

                                            Okay, okay, let's not have this list turn into a discussion about
                                            programming languages.

                                            The priority should be finding a *civic project* to work on, not what
                                            language to use for the project. Project first, language second.

                                            Josh
                                          • Gabe Hamilton
                                            Hi Josh, I have some availability to work on GovTrack over the next few months. My interest is in state legislation, however I m happy to start with some of
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jul 3, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Hi Josh,
                                                  I have some availability to work on GovTrack over the next few months.  My interest is in state legislation, however I'm happy to start with some of the higher priority items.

                                              My question is, would it make sense to start a govtrack-development group?  Obviously we don't want to debate programming languages, but there  are probably some architectural questions that will inspire just as much traffic.

                                              Some examples of things that could be discussed in a new group:
                                                Since GovTrack is in .NET and Perl, is there a way for PHP/Python/Ada programmers to contribute?
                                                Should GovTrack use a DB as well as XML?
                                                Anyone know how X works?
                                                I get error Y when running piece Z of govtrack, anyone know why?

                                              I think Yahoo Groups will do polls, do you want to create a poll for whether a development group is needed?

                                              -Gabe


                                              Gabe Hamilton



                                              On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Josh Tauberer <tauberer@...> wrote:

                                              Hi guys.

                                              With the recent discussion about writing bills on a wiki, I know there
                                              are people here with good technical skills! So I'm writing my periodical
                                              pitch to get some help with GovTrack. If you want to earn some money
                                              helping GovTrack, that might also be possible to arrange.

                                              I've been expanding my list of project ideas here:
                                              http://wiki.govtrack.us/index.php/Projects

                                              Here are a few:
                                              - Display on a bill page a list of sections of the U.S. Code that would
                                              be modified, by looking for references in the bill text.
                                              - Researching what the different types of votes are (like 'motion to
                                              recommit with instructions') and adding explanatory text to the site.
                                              - Tagging bills (crowd-sourcing)
                                              - Make the website fully compliant with accessibility standards

                                              Need I say that GovTrack is quite popular and your contributions will
                                              benefit thousands of people each day? :)

                                              --
                                              - Josh Tauberer
                                              - GovTrack.us

                                              http://razor.occams.info

                                              "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation! Yields
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                                            • Josh Tauberer
                                              ... Hey, Gabe. Glad to hear you could help out. Don t flake out on me now. :) ... I think when the time comes we ll deal with it then. (Any lurkers that have
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jul 3, 2008
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                                                Gabe Hamilton wrote:
                                                > Hi Josh,
                                                > I have some availability to work on GovTrack over the next few
                                                > months. My interest is in state legislation, however I'm happy to start
                                                > with some of the higher priority items.

                                                Hey, Gabe.

                                                Glad to hear you could help out. Don't flake out on me now. :)

                                                > My question is, would it make sense to start a govtrack-development
                                                > group? Obviously we don't want to debate programming languages, but
                                                > there are probably some architectural questions that will inspire just
                                                > as much traffic.

                                                I think when the time comes we'll deal with it then.

                                                (Any lurkers that have an opinion on what they'd like to receive on this
                                                list are welcome to email me off list with opinions.)

                                                Josh
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