Re: Warrior Class
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Justïn <justinelf@...> wrote:
> I definitely see the need for the semantic difference, but is
> reason I should prefer kaballareis over knaíhts?Well, that's a matter of personal taste. Speaking for myself, I
wouldn't use *knaihts because:
1. Its "real world" cognates are not attested outside West Germanic.
That is, not only in Gothic is it unknown, which fact could be
explained by scarcity of the delivered vocabulary, but also in North
Germanic. This makes me think that the formation (kneht) was
dialectal and perhaps relatively late as well and thus impossible to
exist in Gothic even theoretically.
2. The basic meaning preserved in the continental languages
is "servant" rather than "knight". Yes, the semantic development
from "servant" to "(noble) warrior" was not unique with this word,
cf. OGrm. *þegnaz. But then, why not take attested magus, for
instance, and specialize it? Or to use a composite *drauhti-magus
(ON dróttmögr) cf. attested þiu-magus "slave"?
3. Subjectively, I wouldn't like reconstructed Gothic to be too much
close to Modern English or any other modern language, without
sufficient reasons as it seems to be here :)
> My first preferenceYes, amongst Gothic warfare terms we already have militon "to do a
> would be knaíhts because of the Germanic connotation verses a
> Romantic interference, though I am aware of the Gothic exposure to
> Romance languages via Spain, etc.
military service" < Lat. militare, and annons "soldier's salary"
< Lat. annonae. These both are absent in other branches of Germanic.
And they illustrate the contacts with the Roman military
organization, long before the Goths arrived in Spain etc. The words
were there already in the 4th ct., with Visigoths residing north of
the Danube. I don't know since when caballarius started to refer
to "heavy-armored horseman" in Vulgar Latin, and where this happened
first. The Visigoths could have taken it from lingua militaris of
their Roman allies, themselves being formally a part of the Roman
army. And, curiously as it may seem, Isidor of Sevilla (570-638)
used caballarius in the meaning "stableman", if I don't mistake, and
he was a Visigoth.
Kaballarja in the deed is a toponym. *Kaballareis could be
a "knight" quite well.
> Would not knight [horseman] have possibly found its way to a nobleKneht not outside English, for all I know. "Horseman" > "knight"
> connotation in Gothic culture theoretically? Did it finds its way
> there in any culture other than Anglo-Saxon?
practically everywhere in West Europe.
P.S. How about translating the wiki article "Knight" into Gothic? :)
> --- In email@example.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...>wrote:
> > Some thoughts on Gothic knights.
> > In most European languages (all except English afaik) "knight"
> > is "horseman", literally. Although the Goths didn't have knights
> > the proper sense of the word, they did have cavalry. TheOstrogoths
> > are said to borrow the practice of the mounted warriorship fromfor a
> > their Hunnish and Alanic neighbors. They must have had a word
> > horseman, right? Of course, they could have borrowed the itemThe
> > together with the word for it. Not that they had never seen a man
> > riding on horseback before they contacted East European nomads.
> > hypothetical loan could refer to some particular kind of cavalry,but I
> > e.g. auxiliary Alans. The problem is we don't know the Alanic or
> > Hunnish word either. Modern Ossetic has baræg for "horseman",
> > don't know if it's not a later loan from some North Caucasianidiom.
> > Somehow it doesn't look like inherited Iranian. I'd expectsomething
> > with Ir. aspa- (Oss. jæfs-) as the first element. Maybe the Gothsof
> > would substitute it with their IE cognate aihva-, who knows...
> > To construct the word from the Germanic vocabulary, I can think
> > substantivized *reidands (declined like frijonds). *Reidareisadded
> > suggested by Llama seems OK, too, only I haven't seen -areis
> > to a strong verb. Which doesn't mean this was absolutelyimpossible.
> > Finally, there's an option of "going Romance" and constructing
> > *kaballareis M.-ja, after French chevalier, Castilian caballero,
> > Italian cavaliere etc. We have Kaballarja attested (in Arezzo
> > Personally I like it best. Neo-Gothic lexicographs can load itwith
> > all that feudal semantics we associate with knights. And therewill
> > be a diffenece between "knight" (kaballareis) and "horseman"
> > (reidands) to be made.
> > Ualarauans
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
> Are you familiar with the cartoon Ren and Stimpy? This reminds me
> the episode of that where they're space-travellers and Stimpy isis
> granted a wish, so he wishes they could go to "a place where there
> no sadness and the sun always shines"--which the wish-grantingentity
> promptly fulfills by sending them hurtling into the heart of thesun!
That was Huitzilopochtli, for sure!
> Now, the real challenge will be translating the hymn to the 400Awi auje wai waje...
> Rabbits, tôtôchtin, of Drunkanness, which begins:
> Yyaha, yya yya, yya ayya, ayya ouiya, ayya yya, ayya yya, yyauiyya,
> ayya ayya, yya ayya, yya yya yye.
> "Wai! Wai! etc."