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INTRO / question about elder futhark

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  • gerhard sollinger
    Hails I´m male, 56 & write from Spain. I´m not an academic but rather interested in learning gothish for fun & practical reasons. At the moment, I´m still
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 26, 2007
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      Hails

      I´m male, 56 & write from Spain. I´m not an academic but rather interested in learning gothish for fun & practical reasons. At the moment, I´m still an absolute beginner.
      Wolfgang Binnig in his book - Gotisches Elementarbuch describes Wulfilla´s bible-gothish as a quiet unique event, because it represents for him, the first counsciently constructed monolithic language in man´s history. Obviously the gothic letters represents a fusion of mainly greek letters with some runic symbols.
      He refers later on to some researchers in the field of Rune-studies, who think, that the Rune-alphabet of the old futhark respresented the older alphabet of the, by than still pagan Goths.
      What are your opinions about it?

      With warm greetings

      Gerhard



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    • Lars Larsen
      Hi, I cannot imagine which other characters the pagan goths would have used, than the runes of the elder futhark, which was in use in Germania and
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 26, 2007
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        Hi,

        I cannot imagine which other characters the 'pagan goths' would have used,
        than the runes of the elder futhark,
        which was in use in Germania and Scandinavia from roundabout 1st or 2nd
        century until the 8th century.

        Best
        Lars



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Erwin
        I m not very familiar with the research, but in my understanding, the Wulfilan Gothic alphabet begins with the Greek alphabet, and later picks up useful
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 26, 2007
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          I'm not very familiar with the research, but in my understanding, the
          Wulfilan Gothic alphabet begins with the Greek alphabet, and later
          picks up useful features from the Roman alphabet. Of the spoken
          letters, only þiuþs, hvair, and possibly jer, are specifically Gothic
          innovations. I'm not too familiar with the substitution of the
          Cyrrillic che-symbol for the Greek qoppa-symbol for the numeral 90,
          but it is found in Gothic and may be found in some Greek forms as well.

          Wulfilan Gothic lacks the useful letter ingwaz.

          The Elder Futhark lacks the useful letters qairþra and hvair.

          The symbols rarely correspond.
        • Francisc Czobor
          As far as I remember, the Wulfilan letter TH (þiuþs), U (uris) and O (oþal) are from Runic. Francisc ... the ... Gothic ... 90, ... well.
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 27, 2007
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            As far as I remember, the Wulfilan letter TH (þiuþs), U (uris) and O
            (oþal) are from Runic.

            Francisc

            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote:
            >
            > I'm not very familiar with the research, but in my understanding,
            the
            > Wulfilan Gothic alphabet begins with the Greek alphabet, and later
            > picks up useful features from the Roman alphabet. Of the spoken
            > letters, only þiuþs, hvair, and possibly jer, are specifically
            Gothic
            > innovations. I'm not too familiar with the substitution of the
            > Cyrrillic che-symbol for the Greek qoppa-symbol for the numeral
            90,
            > but it is found in Gothic and may be found in some Greek forms as
            well.
            >
            > Wulfilan Gothic lacks the useful letter ingwaz.
            >
            > The Elder Futhark lacks the useful letters qairþra and hvair.
            >
            > The symbols rarely correspond.
            >
          • Francisc Czobor
            Hi Gerhard, The (pagan) Goths actually did use the elder Futhark: the are some short inscriptions left, for instance that on the necklace from the gold
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 27, 2007
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              Hi Gerhard,

              The (pagan) Goths actually did use the elder Futhark: the are some
              short inscriptions left, for instance that on the necklace from the
              gold treasure of Pietroasa, Romania (atributed to Athanaric, 4th
              century).

              Francisc

              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, gerhard sollinger <wothswulf@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Hails
              >
              > I´m male, 56 & write from Spain. I´m not an academic but rather
              interested in learning gothish for fun & practical reasons. At the
              moment, I´m still an absolute beginner.
              > Wolfgang Binnig in his book - Gotisches Elementarbuch describes
              Wulfilla´s bible-gothish as a quiet unique event, because it
              represents for him, the first counsciently constructed monolithic
              language in man´s history. Obviously the gothic letters represents a
              fusion of mainly greek letters with some runic symbols.
              > He refers later on to some researchers in the field of Rune-
              studies, who think, that the Rune-alphabet of the old futhark
              respresented the older alphabet of the, by than still pagan Goths.
              > What are your opinions about it?
              >
              > With warm greetings
              >
              > Gerhard
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              >
              > ¿Chef por primera vez? - Sé un mejor Cocinillas.
              > Entra en Yahoo! Respuestas.
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • llama_nom
              As well as the runic letter, Gothic o resembles a not uncommon variant of the Greek letter Omega (Marchand 1973: The Sounds and Phonemes of Wulfilan
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 27, 2007
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                As well as the runic letter, Gothic 'o' resembles "a not uncommon
                variant of" the Greek letter Omega (Marchand 1973: The Sounds and
                Phonemes of Wulfilan Gothic). Gothic 'hv' has no clear model, but
                might have been adapted from Greek Omicron; James Marchand compares
                the Glagolotic "spiderlike x" used for a labiovelar spirant, which can
                also be seen as a modified Omicron. He considered Gothic 'u' to be
                "doubtless from the runic alphabet", although he mentions an
                alternative theory that it's from Latin 'u' turned upside down to
                avoid confusion with Gothic 'q' - but the runic explanation is
                simplest. Gothic 'th' looks like Greek Psi, and Marchard points to
                Greek parallels for the variants of 'th' found in the Naples deed and
                the Vienna-Salzburg codex.

                Llama Nom
              • gerhard sollinger
                Hi Francisc The runic inscriptiones on gothic weapeones, necklesses and gravestones only proofs that the goth tribes new the Runes as magickal alphabet but
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 27, 2007
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                  Hi Francisc



                  The runic inscriptiones on gothic weapeones, necklesses and gravestones only proofs that the goth tribes new the Runes as magickal "alphabet" but not that they have used it for writing general texts. Usually Runes were taboo for such uses, or does someone know of the existence of texts, written only in runic symbols ?



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                • Tore Gannholm
                  Hi, You are quite right. The old Futhark has only names and magical words. The full futhark is found in Stånga, Gotland as part of a grave end 4th century.
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 27, 2007
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                    Hi,
                    You are quite right. The old Futhark has only names and magical
                    words. The full futhark is found in Stånga, Gotland as part of a
                    grave end 4th century.

                    The only other word on this stone is SUEUS which is an palindrom.

                    Tore

                    27 nov 2007 kl. 15.33 skrev gerhard sollinger:

                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Francisc
                    >
                    > The runic inscriptiones on gothic weapeones, necklesses and
                    > gravestones only proofs that the goth tribes new the Runes as
                    > magickal "alphabet" but not that they have used it for writing
                    > general texts. Usually Runes were taboo for such uses, or does
                    > someone know of the existence of texts, written only in runic
                    > symbols ?
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • Francisc Czobor
                    I wrote short inscriptions , not general texts . As I know, the old Futhark was used in general (not only by the Goths, but also by other Germanic peoples)
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 27, 2007
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                      I wrote "short inscriptions", not "general texts".
                      As I know, the old Futhark was used in general (not only by the
                      Goths, but also by other Germanic peoples) only for such short
                      inscriptions (1 or several words) on different items.

                      Francisc

                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi,
                      > You are quite right. The old Futhark has only names and magical
                      > words. The full futhark is found in Stånga, Gotland as part of a
                      > grave end 4th century.
                      >
                      > The only other word on this stone is SUEUS which is an palindrom.
                      >
                      > Tore
                      >
                      > 27 nov 2007 kl. 15.33 skrev gerhard sollinger:
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hi Francisc
                      > >
                      > > The runic inscriptiones on gothic weapeones, necklesses and
                      > > gravestones only proofs that the goth tribes new the Runes as
                      > > magickal "alphabet" but not that they have used it for writing
                      > > general texts. Usually Runes were taboo for such uses, or does
                      > > someone know of the existence of texts, written only in runic
                      > > symbols ?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
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                    • Leonard Blunk
                      Are there any programmes which I could access to run rune scripts on my PC? I would like to post some rune information on my sites for the runes and ogham
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 27, 2007
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                        Are there any programmes which I could access to run rune scripts on my PC? I would like to post some rune information on my sites for the runes and ogham script but right now I cannot physically place the runes in the articles.
                        DR. ORIENT ROHMER

                        Tore Gannholm <tore@...> wrote:
                        Hi,
                        You are quite right. The old Futhark has only names and magical
                        words. The full futhark is found in Stånga, Gotland as part of a
                        grave end 4th century.

                        The only other word on this stone is SUEUS which is an palindrom.

                        Tore

                        27 nov 2007 kl. 15.33 skrev gerhard sollinger:

                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Francisc
                        >
                        > The runic inscriptiones on gothic weapeones, necklesses and
                        > gravestones only proofs that the goth tribes new the Runes as
                        > magickal "alphabet" but not that they have used it for writing
                        > general texts. Usually Runes were taboo for such uses, or does
                        > someone know of the existence of texts, written only in runic
                        > symbols ?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Gerhard__._,_hI.___ Messages in this topic (0) Reply (via web post)
                        > | Start a new topic
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                        >
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                        > ¿Chef por primera vez? - Sé un mejor Cocinillas.
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                        >
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                        >
                        >

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                      • ualarauans
                        ... gravestones only ... but not that ... The scanty evidence that we have of the Gothic runes proves exactly the opposite: the Goths did use them for writing
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 27, 2007
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                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, gerhard sollinger <wothswulf@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > The runic inscriptiones on gothic weapeones, necklesses and
                          gravestones only
                          > proofs that the goth tribes new the Runes as magickal "alphabet"
                          but not that
                          > they have used it for writing general texts.

                          The scanty evidence that we have of the Gothic runes proves exactly
                          the opposite: the Goths did use them for writing texts (_gutani j
                          [er] hailag_ (Pietroasa) is a text, albeit a very short one) while
                          there are no traces of the so called "runic magic".

                          Afaik there are no runic gravestones which can be ascribed to the
                          continental Goths. The recently discovered inscription on a stone
                          stela found on Opuk mountain in the Crimea may represent one, but
                          since its runes (_þpra_)are not easily interpreted as Gothic word(s)
                          we don't know for sure what its purpose was, i.e. was it an object
                          of religious worship, a cenotaph of a Gothic viking or something
                          else.

                          > Usually Runes were taboo for such
                          > uses, or does someone know of the existence of texts, written only
                          in runic
                          symbols ?

                          They were not taboo. In my understanding the runes were primarily
                          designed to serve the purpose of writing, not magic. There are a lot
                          of short and often formulaic phrases written in Elder Futhark, e.g.
                          _ek hlewagastiR holtijaR horna tawido_ (Gallehus). Longer texts are
                          also known, see Björketorp and Eggjum inscriptions.

                          Ualarauans
                        • Lars Larsen
                          Hi Tore and Francisc Ek hlewagastir holtijar horna tawido written in the old futhark, is more than just a name, a magical inscription or a few words, almost a
                          Message 12 of 13 , Nov 27, 2007
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                            Hi Tore and Francisc

                            Ek hlewagastir holtijar horna tawido

                            written in the old futhark, is more than just a name, a magical inscription
                            or a few words, almost a sentence in my opinion ;-)

                            Best
                            Lars


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Tore Gannholm
                            Hi Lars, No rule without an exception. Tore ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Message 13 of 13 , Nov 27, 2007
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                              Hi Lars,
                              No rule without an exception.

                              Tore

                              27 nov 2007 kl. 22.50 skrev Lars Larsen:

                              > Hi Tore and Francisc
                              >
                              > Ek hlewagastir holtijar horna tawido
                              >
                              > written in the old futhark, is more than just a name, a magical
                              > inscription
                              > or a few words, almost a sentence in my opinion ;-)
                              >
                              > Best
                              > Lars
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >



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