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Reiks at war

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  • the_lothian
    Greetings, I am so glad I found this site. I am in the process of writing a historical novel set during the reign of Constantina I. My goal is to make it as
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 7, 2007
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      Greetings,

      I am so glad I found this site. I am in the process of writing a
      historical novel set during the reign of Constantina I. My goal is
      to make it as historically accurate as possible. In line with that,
      I know that the Goths had Reiks, which I think were similar to tribal
      chiefs. I know that when the Goths went to war the war-chiefs
      carried the title of Draughtin.

      My question is, did Draughtin replace Reik as the title or was it
      added to the title?

      In example:
      Would Reik Larry become Draughtin Larry when they went to war, or
      would he become Draughtin-Reik Larry, (like Governor-General) at war.

      Is there anyone reading these who can help?

      Thanks,

      Tom
    • Ingemar Nordgren
      Hi Lothian, I am not a linguist but as far as I know they were reiks also when leading a war expedition. Their sacral king, however, was never allowed to leave
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 8, 2007
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        Hi Lothian,

        I am not a linguist but as far as I know they were reiks also when
        leading a war expedition. Their sacral king, however, was never
        allowed to leave his own territory when the people was permanently
        settled, but had to order a reiks to take command. During the
        wandering, according to Getica at least, the þiuðans was sacral king
        and he used 'kings of the army' to lead parts of the united army (like
        e.g. Cniva as Wolfram suggests) but I do not know their title in
        Gothic. Later, after the split between Greutungi/Ostrogoths and
        Vesi/Tervingi the Ostrogothic king seems to have behaved like an
        odinistic king while the Vesi had a kindins, family-leader or
        clan-chief, executing the functions of a sacral king.The Ostrogothic
        king accordingly seems to have been a reiks continously and from
        Alaric also the Visgothic king was a reiks, but within Gutþiuða the
        tribal chiefs were reiks/kunigaz and so was the kindins (for his own
        tribe only). Draughtin, Sw. drott, normally is the second in command
        to the king, he is an earl/jarl, but drott may as well be used to
        mean a king, a ruler. I never, however, saw this title in connection
        with an Eastgermanic people. Accordingly I dare not say if it ever was
        used with the Goths. The classical authors use dux when describing the
        leaders just below the king.

        Best wishes
        Ingemar


        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "the_lothian" <the_lothian@...> wrote:
        >
        > Greetings,
        >
        > I am so glad I found this site. I am in the process of writing a
        > historical novel set during the reign of Constantina I. My goal is
        > to make it as historically accurate as possible. In line with that,
        > I know that the Goths had Reiks, which I think were similar to tribal
        > chiefs. I know that when the Goths went to war the war-chiefs
        > carried the title of Draughtin.
        >
        > My question is, did Draughtin replace Reik as the title or was it
        > added to the title?
        >
        > In example:
        > Would Reik Larry become Draughtin Larry when they went to war, or
        > would he become Draughtin-Reik Larry, (like Governor-General) at war.
        >
        > Is there anyone reading these who can help?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Tom
        >
      • Michael Erwin
        To add to Ingemer s notes: 1. Reiks is the nominative singular; the final -s is extremely common for Gothic masculine nouns. Reik is the accusative singular.
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 8, 2007
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          To add to Ingemer's notes:

          1. Reiks is the nominative singular; the final -s is extremely common
          for Gothic masculine nouns. Reik is the accusative singular.

          2. There's a lot of speculation about Gothic political vocabulary.
          Wulfila offers a glimpse of this, but he's one author, with one
          subject, and we don't have the rest.

          3. Reiks may be a catch-all, so that anyone with political power,
          whether commander, chieftain or king, would be a reiks.

          4. *Drauhtins is an unattested speculative form, based on drauhtinon,
          gadrauhts, etc.

          5. A householder might be an andbahts. A subordinate commander might
          be a [unit size]-faþs, e.g. þiusundifaþs, hundafaþs, etc. possibly
          *hansafaþs as well, or even *aihvafaþs and *fotufaþs.

          Any thoughts?

          Mike Erwin
        • the_lothian
          Thanks for helping. I will, on your explanations, drop the Draughtins from the book. I appreciate your help. I found a large lexicon of Gothic words, at
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 12, 2007
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            Thanks for helping. I will, on your explanations, drop the Draughtins
            from the book. I appreciate your help.

            I found a large lexicon of Gothic words, at
            (http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/gotol-EI-X.html) but none
            of those you fellows used was found when I did a search for them.

            Is there a site that would give me the definitions of some of those
            words?

            Thanks again for your help. I appreciate it.

            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote:
            >
            > To add to Ingemer's notes:
            >
            > 1. Reiks is the nominative singular; the final -s is extremely common
            > for Gothic masculine nouns. Reik is the accusative singular.
            >
            > 2. There's a lot of speculation about Gothic political vocabulary.
            > Wulfila offers a glimpse of this, but he's one author, with one
            > subject, and we don't have the rest.
            >
            > 3. Reiks may be a catch-all, so that anyone with political power,
            > whether commander, chieftain or king, would be a reiks.
            >
            > 4. *Drauhtins is an unattested speculative form, based on drauhtinon,
            > gadrauhts, etc.
            >
            > 5. A householder might be an andbahts. A subordinate commander might
            > be a [unit size]-faþs, e.g. þiusundifaþs, hundafaþs, etc.
            possibly
            > *hansafaþs as well, or even *aihvafaþs and *fotufaþs.
            >
            > Any thoughts?
            >
            > Mike Erwin
            >
          • llama_nom
            ... Streitberg s dictionary is good for reliable and detailed for definitions (and grammar) of attested words [ http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/ ].
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 12, 2007
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              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "the_lothian" <the_lothian@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Thanks for helping. I will, on your explanations, drop the Draughtins
              > from the book. I appreciate your help.
              >
              > I found a large lexicon of Gothic words, at
              > (http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/gotol-EI-X.html) but none
              > of those you fellows used was found when I did a search for them.
              >
              > Is there a site that would give me the definitions of some of those
              > words?
              >
              > Thanks again for your help. I appreciate it.

              Streitberg's dictionary is good for reliable and detailed for
              definitions (and grammar) of attested words [
              http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/ ]. Köbler includes many
              hypothetical reconstructions, including some based on competing
              explanations [ http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html ]. There
              are links to some other glossaries here [
              http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/gothiclinks.htm#dictionaries ]. To
              see how a word is used in context, you can search for all or part of a
              word at the Project Wulfila [ http://www.wulfila.be/Corpus/Search.html
              ]. This includes the all of the main texts: Gothic Bible, The
              Skeireins, the Calendar and the Deeds. But it doesn't include all the
              words in marginal glosses.

              Here are some terms for leaders recorded in the Gothic Bible:

              fauramaþleis. "ruler, superintendent", translates Greek ARCWN;
              "governor", translates Greek EQNARCHS.
              frauja. "lord", translates Greek KURIOS (& on one occasion DESPOTHS).
              fraujinonds. "lord", translates Greek DESPOTHS on one occasion.
              hundafaþs. "centurion", translates Greek hEKARTONARCOS (& on one
              occasion KENTURIWN).
              kindins. "governor", translates Greek hHGEMWN.
              reiks. "ruler", translates Greek ARCWN.
              þiudans. "king", translates Greek BASILEUS.
              þusundifaþs. "chiliarch, leader of a thousand men", translates Greek
              CILIARCOS.

              The Visigothic laws refer to an officer titled 'thiufadus' (i.e. in
              Biblical Gothic spelling *'þiufaþs').
            • llama_nom
              In the Gothic Bible, þiudans is used of a king who goes to war: aiþþau hvas þiudans gaggands stigqan wiþra anþarana þiudan du wiganna, niu gasitands
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 12, 2007
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                In the Gothic Bible, 'þiudans' is used of a king who goes to war:

                aiþþau hvas þiudans gaggands stigqan wiþra anþarana þiudan du wiganna,
                niu gasitands faurþis þankeiþ, siaiu mahteigs miþ taihun þusundjom
                gamotjan þamma miþ twaim tigum þusundjo gaggandin ana sik?

                Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down
                first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him
                that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

                Luke 14:31

                'frauja' "lord" is also used with no Greek model for the noun in a
                military context (II Tim 2:4). I'm not sure whether 'reiks' is used
                anywhere in an explicitly military context.



                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Lothian,
                >
                > I am not a linguist but as far as I know they were reiks also when
                > leading a war expedition. Their sacral king, however, was never
                > allowed to leave his own territory when the people was permanently
                > settled, but had to order a reiks to take command. During the
                > wandering, according to Getica at least, the þiuðans was sacral king
                > and he used 'kings of the army' to lead parts of the united army (like
                > e.g. Cniva as Wolfram suggests) but I do not know their title in
                > Gothic. Later, after the split between Greutungi/Ostrogoths and
                > Vesi/Tervingi the Ostrogothic king seems to have behaved like an
                > odinistic king while the Vesi had a kindins, family-leader or
                > clan-chief, executing the functions of a sacral king.The Ostrogothic
                > king accordingly seems to have been a reiks continously and from
                > Alaric also the Visgothic king was a reiks, but within Gutþiuða the
                > tribal chiefs were reiks/kunigaz and so was the kindins (for his own
                > tribe only). Draughtin, Sw. drott, normally is the second in command
                > to the king, he is an earl/jarl, but drott may as well be used to
                > mean a king, a ruler. I never, however, saw this title in connection
                > with an Eastgermanic people. Accordingly I dare not say if it ever was
                > used with the Goths. The classical authors use dux when describing the
                > leaders just below the king.
                >
                > Best wishes
                > Ingemar
                >
                >
                > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "the_lothian" <the_lothian@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Greetings,
                > >
                > > I am so glad I found this site. I am in the process of writing a
                > > historical novel set during the reign of Constantina I. My goal is
                > > to make it as historically accurate as possible. In line with that,
                > > I know that the Goths had Reiks, which I think were similar to tribal
                > > chiefs. I know that when the Goths went to war the war-chiefs
                > > carried the title of Draughtin.
                > >
                > > My question is, did Draughtin replace Reik as the title or was it
                > > added to the title?
                > >
                > > In example:
                > > Would Reik Larry become Draughtin Larry when they went to war, or
                > > would he become Draughtin-Reik Larry, (like Governor-General) at war.
                > >
                > > Is there anyone reading these who can help?
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > >
                > > Tom
                > >
                >
              • the_lothian
                Hello again, Thanks for the site addresses. I have gone from clueless to over-clued in a week. I took a quick look at the sites and I think they will be very
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 13, 2007
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                  Hello again,

                  Thanks for the site addresses. I have gone from clueless to over-clued
                  in a week. I took a quick look at the sites and I think they will be
                  very helpful in my story. Thanks for all your help. I appreciate it.

                  Tom.
                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > In the Gothic Bible, 'þiudans' is used of a king who goes to war:
                  >
                  > aiþþau hvas þiudans gaggands stigqan wiþra anþarana
                  þiudan du wiganna,
                  > niu gasitands faurþis þankeiþ, siaiu mahteigs miþ taihun
                  þusundjom
                  > gamotjan þamma miþ twaim tigum þusundjo gaggandin ana sik?
                  >
                  > Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down
                  > first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him
                  > that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
                  >
                  > Luke 14:31
                  >
                  > 'frauja' "lord" is also used with no Greek model for the noun in a
                  > military context (II Tim 2:4). I'm not sure whether 'reiks' is used
                  > anywhere in an explicitly military context.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" ingemar@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Lothian,
                  > >
                  > > I am not a linguist but as far as I know they were reiks also when
                  > > leading a war expedition. Their sacral king, however, was never
                  > > allowed to leave his own territory when the people was permanently
                  > > settled, but had to order a reiks to take command. During the
                  > > wandering, according to Getica at least, the þiuðans was
                  sacral king
                  > > and he used 'kings of the army' to lead parts of the united army
                  (like
                  > > e.g. Cniva as Wolfram suggests) but I do not know their title in
                  > > Gothic. Later, after the split between Greutungi/Ostrogoths and
                  > > Vesi/Tervingi the Ostrogothic king seems to have behaved like an
                  > > odinistic king while the Vesi had a kindins, family-leader or
                  > > clan-chief, executing the functions of a sacral king.The Ostrogothic
                  > > king accordingly seems to have been a reiks continously and from
                  > > Alaric also the Visgothic king was a reiks, but within
                  Gutþiuða the
                  > > tribal chiefs were reiks/kunigaz and so was the kindins (for his own
                  > > tribe only). Draughtin, Sw. drott, normally is the second in command
                  > > to the king, he is an earl/jarl, but drott may as well be used to
                  > > mean a king, a ruler. I never, however, saw this title in connection
                  > > with an Eastgermanic people. Accordingly I dare not say if it ever
                  was
                  > > used with the Goths. The classical authors use dux when describing
                  the
                  > > leaders just below the king.
                  > >
                  > > Best wishes
                  > > Ingemar
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "the_lothian" <the_lothian@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Greetings,
                  > > >
                  > > > I am so glad I found this site. I am in the process of writing a
                  > > > historical novel set during the reign of Constantina I. My goal is
                  > > > to make it as historically accurate as possible. In line with
                  that,
                  > > > I know that the Goths had Reiks, which I think were similar to
                  tribal
                  > > > chiefs. I know that when the Goths went to war the war-chiefs
                  > > > carried the title of Draughtin.
                  > > >
                  > > > My question is, did Draughtin replace Reik as the title or was it
                  > > > added to the title?
                  > > >
                  > > > In example:
                  > > > Would Reik Larry become Draughtin Larry when they went to war, or
                  > > > would he become Draughtin-Reik Larry, (like Governor-General) at
                  war.
                  > > >
                  > > > Is there anyone reading these who can help?
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks,
                  > > >
                  > > > Tom
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
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